The Church & Israel

[Traveler]

18 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

While it's inarguably true that we specifically targeted city infrastructure and civilians as part of the overall bombing campaigns of these cities, you cannot claim that Hamburg, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were not military targets.

Hamburg was a large industrial center, containing things like shipyards, U-boat pens, and oil refineries.

Hiroshima was a an embarkation port and industrial center that was the site of a major military headquarters.  It was a supply and logistics base for the Japanese military.  It was a communications center and an assembly area for troops.  

Nagasaki was one of the largest military seaports in southern Japan.  It was a shipbuilding center, and was a huge industrial base for producing naval ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

Again, I don't think anyone will argue that we intentionally bombed and killed civilian infrastructure and civilians during these campaigns.  But you have to ignore an awful lot of historical facts to claim there was nothing of military value in those 3 cities.

 

The problem with your assessment is that when the bombings took place the militaries had already been defeated and the cities were defenseless.  I have been to some of the sights where this bombing took place.  In Dresden a brick church (cathedral) (among many of the buildings destroyed) that were not directly bombed were brought down by the intense heat as the city burned that melted the bricks.  60 years after the bombing the damage was so extensive that repairs were still taking place in civilian areas burned.  I have also visited Hiroshima.  The epicenter of the damage was not the seaports but the city itself.  The economy of Hiroshima is mostly agriculture - not military.   Unlike London (I have visited Churchill’s bunker), that was bombed extensively wjere most buildings remained standing, the cities I mentioned were bombed so heavily nothing was left alive (so I was told).

My point is – that as horrible as the destruction and loss of life in Gaza – what we did in the mentioned cities to end WWII was much worse.  No one wins a war.  Whatever the loses are in Gaza it is not enough for Hamas to surrender and forever end the conflict – or for that matter allow the nation of Israel to even exist or allow any Jew to live anywhere without being harassed.  When I was in the middle east I could not find and single Muslem that did not want to live in peace and allow Israel the same.  However, the banking structure of the “West” is a problem and I have yet to find a Muslem anywhere that does not believe Satan is in direct control of societies burdened by compound interest (think credit cards and mortgage).

There is a disconnect between western societies and the Muslem world and it seems to me that leaders on both sides are exploiting the disconnect and that the matters are moving rapidly towards getting worse rather than better.  That our current administration (Biden in particular) is not willing to expand or even continue the Abraham Accords is, in my mind, the greatest blunder of our generation and time.  But then – all this is – I believe – prophesy that we LDS (or any Christian) should expect.  What ever one’s individual status is – I would suggest a renewal of covenants and repentance.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

My point is – that as horrible as the destruction and loss of life in Gaza – what we did in the mentioned cities to end WWII was much worse.  No one wins a war. 

Agreed.  A phrase that makes sense to me: "War doesn't decide who is right, it decides who is left."  We've had generations raised hearing about things that weren't wars in the classical sense. Korea, Vietnam, the cold war, proxy wars - those really aren't wars.   A war with the stakes of WWII hasn't really been seen in American media, until now with Israel's actions.  There are plenty of analogies.

 

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Whatever the loses are in Gaza it is not enough for Hamas to surrender and forever end the conflict – or for that matter allow the nation of Israel to even exist or allow any Jew to live anywhere without being harassed.  When I was in the middle east I could not find and single Muslem that did not want to live in peace and allow Israel the same.  However, the banking structure of the “West” is a problem and I have yet to find a Muslem anywhere that does not believe Satan is in direct control of societies burdened by compound interest (think credit cards and mortgage).

Yep.  I've been hearing about how wide the divide is between the Islamic/Arab/Persian world and the western world for a long time.  We think we know what it's like to oppose a different culture when we think about the taliban and forced religious rule that keep women out of schools and whatnot.  We get outraged and support the occasional intervention to stop such things.  But there's no comparison to the level of opposition much of the Islamic world has to notions like human rights, freedom to choose, and yes, compound interest.  There's more than just outrage and supporting things going on there - it's a holy struggle against what's considered an evil system.  With this mindset, there's no stopping the struggle, there's no end to the conflict, until the other system is totally gone and all it's adherents are converted or slain.  

Of course, not all Muslims go to such extremes.  What's the percentage that is?  Folks argue back and forth - I hear claims of 10%, 50%, 80% of the world's Muslims are serious about the "great satan" talk and want the US and Israel wiped off the face of the earth, as a good starting place.  

I've also heard it put this way: Christianity had it's reformation, and holy wars and violence in the name of God was decimated.  Islam had it's reformation, and the holy wars and violence in the name of God got enshrined in many cultures as a way of life, a reason to have a government.

We keep hearing about the Houthi missile attacks.  Here's the Houthi flag, with a translation.  Imagine having this as the flag of your movement and your people:

What's the answer? I dunno.   But Israel's answer of "we get to exist, and eliminate threats to our existence" makes a lot of sense to me, and I support them.

Edited May 7 by NeuroTypical

[Traveler]

59 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

.....

What's the answer? I dunno.   But Israel's answer of "we get to exist, and eliminate threats to our existence" makes a lot of sense to me, and I support them.

I have said in discussions with my Islamic friends that it cannot be a Gehad if the majority of those they are trying to liberate are being killed.  I have never had any disagreement.

 

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

On 5/4/2024 at 10:31 AM, LDSGator said:

That makes me feel better. The church has wonderful judgment on these issues. 

I like to think so; but in this case the external pressures were immense.

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I like to think so; but in this case the external pressures were immense.

That proves my point. They listened to external pressure, judged the current climate and adapted. That alone proves how wise they are. 

[Just_A_Guy]

On 5/6/2024 at 12:33 PM, LDSGator said:

It is easy for me to say “Go light on Hamas” when I don’t have to worry about getting blown up by terrorists who hate me-but it’s also easy to say “Nuke Gaza” when it’s not my 70 year mother who just got slaughtered in her own home while crocheting. 

On the other hand, if your 70-year-old mother had voluntarily donated her basement as a place for goons to keep their Jewish sex slave . . .

We have a strong western tradition of at least giving lip service to the distinction between civilian and military; and the notion that a populace is often not accountable for the acts of its government.  But when you see the public opinion polls about the number of Palestinians (and Palestinian supporters in Europe and the USA) who support the 10/7 attacks . . .

I don’t know.  It makes me reconsider the OT conquest narratives.  Could it be that sometimes, an entire culture is simply beyond rehabilitation/reconciliation; and for the sake of self defense, all that’s left to do is to give them the most humane death your resources permit?

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I don’t know.  It makes me reconsider the OT conquest narratives.  Could it be that sometimes, an entire culture is simply beyond rehabilitation/reconciliation; and for the sake of self defense, all that’s left to do is to give them the most humane death your resources permit?

I also agree that I don’t have an answer. I find both sides of this argument deeply troubling.  The “blow up Gaza kill em all” is just as repulsive to me as the what they did to Israel back in October.
 

Black Sabbath was right. War is the great Satan. 😞  

Edited May 9 by LDSGator

[Carborendum]

On 5/3/2024 at 10:39 AM, Vort said:

Rather ironic and almost humorous to compare Hitler's rantings about the Master Race. If any group fits Hitler's twisted Master Race idea, it is the very Jews he was so passionately murdering.

Irony?  Not quite the word I would use. Perhaps: Self-defeating behavior.  Self-defeating prophecy?

For much of European History Jews were hated and discriminated against.  One characteristic was that (for quite a long history) they were not allowed to own land.  Therefore, they could not grow their own food.  This forced them to make money through business in order to buy food.  Being in finance and business required brains.  Those who survived while maintaining their Jewish identity had to be among the smarter people.  To be highly successful, you had to be really smart.  But the average European had to go into farming.

Through the centuries, Jews became smarter.  The native Europeans became dumber.  Unintentional consequences: Natural selection by human edict.

Then they also developed the most amazing education system that you can imagine.  And it leans heavily towards verbal reasoning, logic, reading, and memorization.

Aside: Freedom Toons has a video of "dinner at the Shapiro house."  It depicts the extended family making fun of Ben Shapiro for being the intellectual runt of the family.  His response is, "I realize all of you are more accomplished and all.  But in other circles an IQ of 215 is generally considered pretty respectable. OK?"

Edited May 9 by Carborendum

[mikbone]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/19/middleeast/iranian-president-raisi-helicopter-intl

Deuteronomy 20:4 comes to mind.

Edited 7 hours ago by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

Hm.  Ok, I don't know much about what this means.  Isn't the president pretty much a hand-selected figurehead by the people who actually rule Iran?

[LDSGator]

22 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hm.  Ok, I don't know much about what this means.  Isn't the president pretty much a hand-selected figurehead by the people who actually rule Iran?

That’s what I thought too, but I’m hardly an expert on the topic.

[mikbone]

37 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hm.  Ok, I don't know much about what this means.  Isn't the president pretty much a hand-selected figurehead by the people who actually rule Iran?

Yeah