Does Tact = Deception?

[zil2]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You may not care.  But you clearly didn't find it to be a pleasing feature.

How could I find it pleasing (or displeasing) if I didn't care?  From my point of view, he's not my business - he's his wife's business, and that makes his appearance utterly irrelevant.  Sure, I react like anyone else to the extremes of (un)attractiveness, but the vast majority of the world are in the middle of those extremes and their appearance can simply exist without the need for rating or reacting to it.

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yeah, that's not always an option.  Although, my current job makes it a lot easier.

But then, there's church.  I avoid humans a lot.  But then people think I'm being anti-social... which is true... and so???

If you know that people think you're being anti-social, you aren't doing a very good job of avoiding humans.    Try harder.  (Of course, you're married to one, and you and your wife have created more of them, so you've sort of ruined this option for yourself.  I'm afraid I've exhausted my stash of "how to deal with humans" advice.)

Edited June 4, 2024 by zil2

[LDSGator]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

isn't drawing a very nice picture of how noble "lying to be nice" is.  Instead, it seems to be sociopathic or narcissistic. 

So everyone who uses manners is “sociopathic or narcissistic” and rude people are the only ones who are stable, grounded and balanced? 

[Carborendum]

1 minute ago, zil2 said:

How could I find it pleasing (or displeasing) if I didn't care? 

The tone of your previous posts indicated:

• You believe that HIS mustache was none of your business.  And as a personal preference, your opinion shouldn't matter to him or his wife.  So, you didn't care about it being on him.
• You believe that such a mustache on a mannequin would draw smirks, raised eyebrows, and subtle mockery from you, should someone point it out to you.

If I'm wrong, then I guess I'm wrong.

[Carborendum]

4 minutes ago, zil2 said:

If you know that people think you're being anti-social, you aren't doing a very good job of avoiding humans.

When I am absent, I'm there in absentia... if that makes sense.

People tend to know when I'm gone.

[LDSGator]

Doesn’t it become an ego trip at some point?

“You are all stupid and sociopathic compared to me. I’m the only one keeping it real. Aren’t I wonderful?” 

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

• You believe that such a mustache on a mannequin would draw smirks, raised eyebrows, and subtle mockery from you, should someone point it out to you.

I didn't mean to suggest this.  His mustache reminded me of Salvador Dali in that my co-worker had clearly gone to great effort to extend is mustache to the sides and curl it (and I think used some product to keep it "stiff" in that position).  While Dali sometimes went to greater extremes, he also occasionally did the same - extend and curl and "fix" his mustache into position.

[zil2]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

People tend to know when I'm gone.

Clearly you haven't mastered human avoidance.  Try harder.  People never notice when I'm not there.  In fact, some might have a coronary if I were there.

(Also, I once tried to go there, but the minute I arrived, it became here.  After this happened many times in a row, I finally gave up on there altogether and decided to just stay here.)

 

PS: Lest you think you're all alone (which seems unlikely given your inability to avoid humans, but still), I'm with you in this - there should be a way to both not lie and be polite.  It likely requires practice, thinking fast on your feet, humility, and the pure love of Christ.  (In other words, I don't think it is necessary to lie to be polite.)

[Phoenix_person]

51 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Here's another perspective:  I've been reading a book by Robert Greene: 48 Laws of Power.

The more I read it, the more I get convinced of a few things.

• This is really a "how to" book on manipulating people.

I could have told you that based on the title alone. 

51 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

• This is how virtually everyone behaves.

Imagine a world where virtually everyone is 100% honest with each other in day-to-day interactions. What do you suppose that would look like? 

51 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

• This is exactly why people "lie to be nice."

It isn't drawing a very nice picture of how noble "lying to be nice" is.  Instead, it seems to be sociopathic or narcissistic.  At the same time, virtually anyone in history uses these specific methods to gain power and are praised by history as people of great achievement and hailed as noble figures.  Meanwhile, Almost all of those who are ignorant of this end up dying in ruins.  

I operate on the outskirts of the political realm, and even from a reasonably safe distance, it's painfully obvious to me that it's impossible to be a truly honest politician. They simply don't exist. That doesn't mean they're all bad people. I'm quite fond of most of the people who represent me in government. I'm even thinking about volunteering on my state rep's reelection campaign. But a lot of political strategy requires some sort of dishonesty and deception, and no political "sides", extreme or centrist, are immune. I'm on the spectrum, so that's been a difficult adjustment for me. I don't usually struggle with tact (I used to), but directness is typically my default. I've had to work on that a bit in my current volunteer capacity. 

51 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This, in addition to a lot of people encouraging me to "lie to be nice" isn't painting a great picture of humanity.

Welcome to the Thunderdome.

[Carborendum]

6 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I could have told you that based on the title alone. 

You have a point.  But many of his other books are not like that at all.  It is a sociologist's look at the human condition.  In this particular case, it is about how powerful people tend to work and behave.  It also describes how people around such powerful people behave.  But it inevitably goes into the manipulative bits.

6 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Imagine a world where virtually everyone is 100% honest with each other in day-to-day interactions. What do you suppose that would look like? 

Again, if we just allow for the "not answering" I think it would be great.  Do you know how confused I got and how much I was (for lack of a better word) abused in my childhood by my peers because I didn't really understand the concept of a lie?  It was all the time.  I believed everyone.  But I did at least wonder about some people possibly being wrong.  That was something I understood.  But lie?  I just didn't get why they would do that -- especially when it was a lie to inflict harm.  Yes, they considered it a joke.  But it certainly didn't seem funny to inflict physical harm on someone or damage their property.

6 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I operate on the outskirts of the political realm, and even from a reasonably safe distance, it's painfully obvious to me that it's impossible to be a truly honest politician. They simply don't exist.

No, I believe that the art of "reframing" is what needs to be done.  But people are really bad at it nowadays.  Politicians used to be more adept at that.  But nowadays, they are so inept that they choose to lie and deceive rather than reframe.

6 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Welcome to the Thunderdome.

That's not the way the world is supposed to be.

[Carborendum]

26 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Clearly you haven't mastered human avoidance.  Try harder. 

The thing is that I try not to go physically go somewhere unless I feel needed.  And apparently, there are a lot of things I can do that no one else can.  So, I'm needed a lot.

When I'm gone, they need someone who can fill that gap.  While they get along ok without me, they tend to wish I was there.

26 minutes ago, zil2 said:

(Also, I once tried to go there, but the minute I arrived, it became here.  After this happened many times in a row, I finally gave up on there altogether and decided to just stay here.)

LoL.

26 minutes ago, zil2 said:

PS: Lest you think you're all alone (which seems unlikely given your inability to avoid humans, but still), I'm with you in this - there should be a way to both not lie and be polite.  It likely requires practice, thinking fast on your feet, humility, and the pure love of Christ.  (In other words, I don't think it is necessary to lie to be polite.)

Yeah, that doesn't work with me.  I learned that a long time ago.  I don't really have the mental ability to think of those things.  If I come up with things, they always go wrong.  

The best I can do is to listen to hundreds of example situations and then see how experts at this craft were to handle it.  Someone will have to explain to me what was happening and why this was an appropriate response to this situation.  Then, after seeing such things in hundreds of situations, I could eventually get it.  But I haven't seen them.  I only get people saying, "You just need to learn tact."  And then they tell me to lie.

Yeah, thanks for that.

[zil2]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The best I can do is to listen to hundreds of example situations and then see how experts at this craft were to handle it.  Someone will have to explain to me what was happening and why this was an appropriate response to this situation.  Then, after seeing such things in hundreds of situations, I could eventually get it.

This is part of "practice" - but I suppose if 99.9% of the population have given up and just tell the pretty lies, that makes it difficult for you to find resources to learn from.  IMO, a good imagination would help here, but not everyone is gifted with that.  FWIW, when all else fails, turn to the one who knows exactly how to help you specifically - Christ.

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"You just need to learn tact." 

(I actually have this pad of sticky notes. )

[Carborendum]

7 minutes ago, zil2 said:

This is part of "practice" - but I suppose if 99.9% of the population have given up and just tell the pretty lies, that makes it difficult for you to find resources to learn from.

I have plenty of practice in what NOT to do.  But to "practice" doing the right thing, I first need examples of the right thing to do.  No one offers them to me.

Take this forum for instance.  Good honest people telling me to lie.  Gee, that helps.

7 minutes ago, zil2 said:

(I actually have this pad of sticky notes. )

I'm going to look for this and place it on my desk.

[zil2]

34 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Imagine a world where virtually everyone is 100% honest with each other in day-to-day interactions. What do you suppose that would look like? 

Quote

D&C 76:92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;

...

94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

One can argue all they want about whether God allows mortals to misunderstand words in order to bring them to actual truth, but the above leaves little room for doubt - this is a place where all see and know the same things in the same way - no deception, no misunderstanding, complete honesty.  If that ever happened on Earth, God would take that group of people the same as he took the City of Enoch (since it cannot happen without numerous other virtues also having been mastered).

[estradling75]

It seems like you are looking for a Win button.   AKA some method or plan that always allows you to be truthful, never gets you accused of anything not nice.

Such a button does not exist.
The best I got is... Try to minimize the harm you do the best you know how, and do not give up on trying because you will mess it up.

[zil2]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I'm going to look for this and place it on my desk.

They haven't been made in eons.  You can find a few on ebay or similar.  If you really want it, PM me and I'll send you mine (it's been sitting in a drawer for 30+ years).

[Carborendum]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

It seems like you are looking for a Win button.   AKA some method or plan that always allows you to be truthful, never gets you accused of anything not nice.

Nope, quite the opposite. 

I'm pointing to the fact that (so far) I'm finding that the truth hurts most people.  Yet everyone swears that all they want to hear is the truth.  Then they cry and scream when they hear it.

I certainly don't WANT to make people cry.  But when they are asking for something that I can't give them, this somehow becomes my fault.

[LDSGator]

24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But when they are asking for something that I can't give them, this somehow becomes my fault.

Because it is. 99% of us can convey our thoughts without causing the other another person to feel uncomfortable or insulted. 
 

See? That sounds kind of blunt and tactless too. But, since you are saying that’s okay, I don’t feel bad. 

Edited June 4, 2024 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

If you hate someone, but you decide to be tactful, so you say you like them, that's not only deceitful, it's also breaking the 2nd great commandment, and probably being passive-aggressive too.

Honest tact is fine.  People need to get better at loving each other, so we don't have to cram down and hide our contempt for whoever you're being tactful at.  

[LDSGator]

43 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

If you hate someone, but you decide to be tactful, so you say you like them, that's not only deceitful, it's also breaking the 2nd great commandment, and probably being passive-aggressive too.

Are you sure? To me it means “I’m going to be an adult and put my personal feelings aside so the group can function better.” 
 

My cousins and I don’t get along. We never have. At the next funeral I’m not going to tell them what I really think of them. 1. They know 2. It’s not the time or the place and 3. I have the respect for my mom and dad and I don’t want to make them feel awkward. 

I’d love to tell my cousins how I really feel, believe me.  But It’s called “being a grown up, so I control myself.” 

Edited June 4, 2024 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

I totally get folks who don't want someone to know what they really feel about them.

I'm talking about the 2nd great commandment.  "Love thy neighbor as thyself".  Life is better when your feelings are pure.

Please don't think I'm preaching to anyone but myself.  I've gotten better at this over the years, but I'm hardly perfect.  But forgiving your enemy and loving your neighbor go a really long way to making tact easy and truthful.

 

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am very lucky because I married the polar opposite personality type that is able to cover for most of my relationship blunders.  I will give an example:  I ask a new member of our Elder’s quorum to lead the discussion topic recently.  After priesthood I was with my wife and the good brother’s wife joined him.  Since we were all close, she turned to me and asked how her husband did with the lesson.  I responded very truthfully and said that he did much better than I expected.  My wife stepped in and said that my response is as high of a complement as I ever give – that it must have been really good.  Later she explained to me that most people would take my complement negatively – that I would assume that they would do terrible.   I should just say he did a good job.  I attempted to explain that I expected a typical good job but he had done better.  She reminded me that it was not what I said.

Something like this happened to me recently.  This is a question of "framing."

"It was better than I expected" can be taken either way.  You meant it one way.  They took it another way.  Luckily your wife was able to translate.

I was not so fortunate.  My wife was the one who got upset, believing I had offended someone.  But luckily, the person that was supposed to be offended took it the way I intended.  He didn't have a problem with it.

[Carborendum]

17 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I totally get folks who don't want someone to know what they really feel about them.

I'm talking about the 2nd great commandment.  "Love thy neighbor as thyself".  Life is better when your feelings are pure.

Please don't think I'm preaching to anyone but myself.  I've gotten better at this over the years, but I'm hardly perfect.  But forgiving your enemy and loving your neighbor go a really long way to making tact easy and truthful.

This is very interesting.  I'm considering the idea that I may not be able to think of a "nice & honest" thing to say because I don't really love them.

So, the key to "find a nice thing to say regardless of the question" (within reason) is based on my ability to love them as a child of God.  And my inability to say such nice things, is because I don't have enough Charity to be able to see the good in them.

I could easily be offended by this.  But I'm choosing not to be.  I'm considering it.

Edited June 4, 2024 by Carborendum

[zil2]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This is very interesting.  I'm considering the idea that I may not be able to think of a "nice & honest" thing to say because I don't really love them.

So, the key to "find a nice thing to say regardless of the question" (within reason) is based on my ability to love them as a child of God.  And my inability to say such nice things, is because I don't have enough Charity to be able to see the good in them.

I could easily be offended by this.  But I'm choosing not to be.  I'm considering it.

Apparently NT said it in a way that hit home more than my version:

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

It likely requires practice, thinking fast on your feet, humility, and the pure love of Christ.

But I meant what he's saying.

[NeuroTypical]

33 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, the key to "find a nice thing to say regardless of the question" (within reason) is based on my ability to love them as a child of God.

Hm.  I'm not sure that's what tact means.  Tact has something to do with speaking inoffensively.  You can take strong issue with people, express all sorts of disagreement with them, in tactful ways.   It's just that, if you hate their guts, you'll probably feel like you're lying to them by saying inoffensive things, because every fiber of your being is screaming at you to offend them.  Because after what they did, they deserve to be offended.

I've found tactful ways to tell people if they show up at our house, we'll call the cops on them. 

Edited June 4, 2024 by NeuroTypical

[Ironhold]

I was at one point a moderator on a Discord server. 

A younger user kept trying to use a certain racial slur, and didn't understand why our automatic moderator bot was constantly flagging it. 

They felt that because it wasn't the *exact* version of the slur that so many people found offensive, it was somehow OK. 

I told them that just because they hear it in a rap song doesn't mean that it's OK to use. 

The server administrators informed me I was no longer a moderator. 

Yeah... 😅

That apparently resolved the issue then and there as this person hasn't tried to do it again, but the decision was made that my response was far from the ideal way of handling things. 

So yeah, I'm still trying to figure out the fine line between "when to be 'tactful' in my responses" and "when being blunt is the only way to get through to someone".