Hunter Biden -- Guilty

[ZealoulyStriving]

30 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Okay. 
 

I’m doing what right wingers did in 2008, 2004, and 2012. Staying home or voting third party. After all, if they did it for those elections it’s okay for me to do it too. I at least admit it’s a selfish and self congratulatory action, lol.  

Why is voting 3rd party "selfish and self-congratulatory"?

For me it's informed and true to my values. Why should I be shamed into voting for one of two people I find deplorable because the vast majority of the citizenry is convinced you have to be a elephant or an a.., er, donkey?

Maybe if more people took the time to research and vote for whomever truly comes closest to their values we wouldn't be in this current situation?

Edited June 12 by ZealoulyStriving

[LDSGator]

21 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

Why is voting 3rd party "selfish and self-congratulatory"?

I’m glad you asked.

1) Because it accomplishes nothing. No matter how bad I want the Libertarian Party to win, they have zero chance. Same with the Constitution Party.
 

2)By voting for third parties you take away a vote from an electable candidate, thus hurting your own cause because someone you agree with far less might then win. This won’t hurt a candidate in thick red/blue states, but it will hurt a candidate in swing states. 

3) by voting third party, you get to pat yourself on the back and talk about how you don’t get your hands dirty like the peons who vote straight red/blue. So you get the added thrill of feeling morally superior to those fools.     

Edited June 12 by LDSGator

[ZealoulyStriving]

10 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’m glad you asked.

1) Because it accomplishes nothing. No matter how bad I want the Libertarian Party to win, they have zero chance. Same with the Constitution Party.

Having no chance of winning isn't sufficient reason for me to compromise my values and vote for someone who's values are aligned elsewhere.

10 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

2)By voting for third parties you take away a vote from an electable candidate, thus hurting your own cause because someone you agree with far less might then win. This won’t hurt a candidate in thick red/blue states, but it will hurt a candidate in swing states. 

How is it hurting my cause by not voting for someone who doesn't embrace my same values?

10 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

3) by voting third party, you get to pat yourself on the back and talk about how you don’t get your hands dirty like the peons who vote straight red/blue. So you get the added thrill of feeling morally superior to those fools.     

Or maybe I can't in good conscience vote for the two principle candidates and it has nothing to do with pride or feelings superior to others- and I wholeheartedly support whatever choice others make happy for the freedom we enjoy to vote for whomever we want.

[LDSGator]

10 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

How is it hurting my cause by not voting for someone who doesn't embrace my same values?

32 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

How is throwing your vote away advancing any cause you care about? 

 

10 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

Having no chance of winning isn't sufficient reason for me to compromise my values and vote for someone who's values are aligned elsewhere.

Then you don’t understand politics. Which is largely/mostly about winning. 

 

10 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

Or maybe I can't in good conscience vote for the two principle candidates and it has nothing to do with pride or feelings superior to others- and I wholeheartedly support whatever choice others make happy for the freedom we enjoy to vote for whomever we want.

When someone says “it has nothing to so with “X”” that’s an excellent indicator that it‘s all about X.

Edited June 12 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

The education of @LDSGator began at a young age. In school we had a mock election between Clinton/Bush in 92. One mom wrote a four page totally unhinged rant about how she could never vote for Bush because he wasn’t “pro life enough.” By her not doing that, she gave a vote to Clinton. I grasped this complexity of American politics in 1992, when @Just_A_Guy was 44 and I was only 12. 

 

Edited June 12 by LDSGator

[Phoenix_person]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am sorry I did not word that correctly – I meant support for the Abraham Accords that Donald Trump initiated.  My concern is that as soon as some see the name of Donald Trump (or Biden) – they do not connect to anything else.

Among everything else that was happening in 2020, I think a lot of people in both parties glossed over the Abraham Accords. I don't think it would be accurate to say that the left opposes the accords. Broken clocks and all. I also don't think there's any reason to assume that the accords are at risk under Biden.

[LDSGator]

12 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Among everything else that was happening in 2020, I think a lot of people in both parties glossed over the Abraham Accords. I don't think it would be accurate to say that the left opposes the accords. Broken clocks and all. I also don't think there's any reason to assume that the accords are at risk under Biden.

 Not to put you on the spot, but we’re all friends and long time posters here. We all know each others politics, more or less. 

You’ll probably vote for Biden right? Or will you write in Dean Phillips?

Edited June 12 by LDSGator

[Phoenix_person]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

 Not to put you on the spot, but we’re all friends and long time posters here. We all know each others politics, more or less. 

You’ll probably vote for Biden right? Or will you write in Dean Phillips?

Yes, I intend to vote for Biden. Not because he needs my vote, though. My vote for Biden in Minnesota will make about as much difference as my vote for Hillary in Texas did in 2016 (and I wasn't thrilled with my options then, either). I'm voting for him because of the fuss I made about the Bernie Bros voting for Jill Stein or staying home in swing states in 2016. You never know when the candidate you think is a "no-brainer" will become the victim of an upset. I use the primaries to vote my conscience. I voted for Bernie in '16, Warren in '20, and uncommitted this year. The Minnesota DFL is sending 11 uncommitted candidates to the DNC. Biden got the remaining 64. It doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but it sends a message to the national party that Biden's support isn’t automatic or absolute.

Interestingly, it's pretty common for Dems on the national level to have about a 10-12% dissent rate for incumbent presidents in primary elections. Republican incumbents rarely go above 3% dissent in their primaries. 

"Vote blue no matter who" has become a controversial concept on the left, but I still think it's the best policy for left-leaning folks in general presidential elections, as well as most state-level ones (I wouldn't rule out voting for Hogan if I still lived in Maryland). That said, I think 2028 is going to be a very spicy primary year for both parties regardless of how things go this November.

Edited June 12 by Phoenix_person

[Ironhold]

On 6/11/2024 at 4:20 PM, Phoenix_person said:

It's an interesting case in that, generally speaking, both sides of the political spectrum agree on two things: 1) The gun possession charge brought against Hunter shouldn'tbe a crime, and 2) If Hunter's guilty, he shouldn't get any leniency or preferrential treatment. 

Last night a bit on the news noted that the bill going through Congress which would strip convicted felons of Secret Service protection, the bill meant to target Trump, would now by extension target Hunter Biden as well if the bill did indeed become law. 

This IMHO will likely ensure that the bill doesn't pass, let alone become law. 

[Vort]

6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I find an endless list of things Trump has done to be loathsome, disgusting, sinful, and horrible.

Just curious: Why is it that those who vote for Trump are expected to apologize for their vote and explain their thinking, while those who vote for the far more vomitous Biden feel no such constraints? I openly admit I don't particularly like Trump, but I will make no apology for voting for him. The choice between him and Biden is so clear that it is not even a choice, like "choosing" between being locked in an outhouse for an hour or being tortured to death, or between having your tonsils removed or your eyes gouged out, or between eating steak medium rare or well done.

[mikbone]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

or between eating steak medium rare or well done.

I bet you eat your steak well done. 

Disgusting.🤮 

[old]

On 6/11/2024 at 6:52 PM, Phoenix_person said:

Because I'm petty.

People get the government they deserve.

Don't be surprised when your guy is locked up b/c someone else decides to be petty.

[old]

The Hunter Biden vs. Trump is asymmetrical.

1) Trump reimbursed a lawyer who used personal funds to have a porn start sign an NDA. Trump has fully denied having anything to do with a porn star.  

2) The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT provided classified briefings to Congress saying the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian Disinformation.

The two have literally nothing to do with each other. One is using personal power and the other is using the force of the government.

What should really happen is the individuals in the Federal Government who pushed the Russian Disinformation nonsense should go to jail. . . .but Fed. Gov. is never held accountable.

Hunter Biden is just a pawn (sadly and I feel for the guy . . .he's a messed up dude from a messed up family), hiss father is the one who should be hauled up on impeachment charges for corruption and selling influence through his son.  Hunter Biden . . .his mother is killed in a car wreck and his father is banging some chic prior to his mother's death who his father then marries quickly after the accident...messed up.

[old]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

Just curious: Why is it that those who vote for Trump are expected to apologize for their vote and explain their thinking, while those who vote for the far more vomitous Biden feel no such constraints? I openly admit I don't particularly like Trump, but I will make no apology for voting for him. The choice between him and Biden is so clear that it is not even a choice, like "choosing" between being locked in an outhouse for an hour or being tortured to death, or between having your tonsils removed or your eyes gouged out, or between eating steak medium rare or well done.

No apology here.  US is a morally bankrupt society that is on fumes...only thing holding it together is the ability for people to make money in the US.  It has no cohesive united story that binds people together . . . except money.

When the economy and US dollar goes (which is will), the US will tear itself apart.

How long will that take?? Whenever the US loses a big war or a big fight with a near peer competitor.

Edited June 13 by old

[Phoenix_person]

39 minutes ago, old said:

Trump has fully denied having anything to do with a porn star.  

Well if Trump said it, it must be true.

39 minutes ago, old said:

2) The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT provided classified briefings to Congress saying the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian Disinformation.

The two have literally nothing to do with each other. One is using personal power and the other is using the force of the government.

What should really happen is the individuals in the Federal Government who pushed the Russian Disinformation nonsense should go to jail. . . .but Fed. Gov. is never held accountable.

Did I miss something? Has DoJ actually confirmed that Hunter Biden's laptop is the smoking gun that the New York Post* claims it is? Has Hunter Biden been indicted for treason and/or espionage? If not, then calling for the imprisonment of 51 intelligence experts (all of whom were given a chance to retract after the Post story broke, and didn't) might be a tad premature, no?

*I trust the New York Post about as much as you probably trust the Huffington Post (which, to be clear, I don't consider a reliable source of information).

37 minutes ago, old said:

When the economy and US dollar goes (which is will), the US will tear itself apart.

How long will that take?? Whenever the US loses a big war or a big fight with a near peer competitor.

Historically, war has actually always been quite good for the US economy. Even if that wasn't the case, losing a "big war" in today's global reality would mean apocalyptic loss of life. In that scenario, I think the economy would be the least of our concerns.

[Phoenix_person]

1 hour ago, old said:

People get the government they deserve.

Don't be surprised when your guy is locked up b/c someone else decides to be petty.

Bold of you to assume that I care what happens to literally any politician, especially Biden. Politics is a cutthroat business.

[LDSGator]

9 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Historically, war has actually always been quite good for the US economy.

Yes, but it’s complicated. World War II absolutely helped our economy, but one could easily argue that the human cost did far more long term damage then the economic plus it created. 
 

[Carborendum]

10 hours ago, old said:

No apology here.  US is a morally bankrupt society that is on fumes...only thing holding it together is the ability for people to make money in the US.  It has no cohesive united story that binds people together . . . except money.

This is why I'm not bothering to vote ... at all... this time around.

First, I'm in Texas, so it probably won't make a difference.

Second, we are depending on politicians to save us?  Really?  The only thing that will save us is if we, as a nation, return to God.  And that ain't happening.  Why would I bother thinking anything else I do will change the outcome?

Our system of government is only viable with a moral and religious people.  And even the religious among us have forgotten what our religion even is.  So many professed Christians live a completely worldly life and excuse it all by saying, "God loves me unconditionally.  So, I'm fine."

We will not survive temporally or spiritually on that cultural attitude.  We have become so corrupt that only a tyrannical government properly govern us.  But in this day, with the people who are vying for power, the tyrant in charge will not be favorable to traditional Christian virtues.

So, again... I have given up on the democratic process in this country.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

Yes, but it’s complicated. World War II absolutely helped our economy, but one could easily argue that the human cost did far more long term damage then the economic plus it created.

More to the point is that a "wartime economy" is a sort of a fiction. It is a short-term measure that is unsustainable for more than perhaps a decade. It is inherently consumptive and inflationary. Real economic gain means real wealth creation that is generalized throughout society. Wartime economy appears to cause this by ramping up war industry production, but that mainly just gets people working at jobs. In and of itself, that doesn't create wealth, and the product created is consumed by the war effort. Jobs per se do little or nothing to create wealth; otherwise, we could simply have a set of people digging ditches on Monday and another set filling them up on Tuesday.

old (I think) alluded to our need to have a common goal or set of goals, which we don't really have. "Make a lot of money" is too meta and doesn't count as a common goal. I do think that World War II created real economic benefit for the US, but I firmly believe that is because it created real product and service, including building the infrastructure to allow mass creation—which I admit is also sort of meta, but in this case I think it was an actual, tangible side effect of the WWII war effort.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

So many professed Christians live a completely worldly life and excuse it all by saying, "God loves me unconditionally.  So, I'm fine."

Many today worship a God who bears only passing resemblance to the God of our fathers. 2 Nephi 28:7-8 has never been more reflective of society than it is today:

Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Verse 9 names this abomination for what it is: "...false and vain and foolish doctrines..."

It's easy to blame this mess we are in on the irreligious and godless. Easy, but wrong. The godless wicked, like the poor, we have always with us. Theirs is the common condition of fallen humanity. They are to be pitied and reclaimed by love as errant brothers and sisters, not reviled for their perceived filthiness. The problem, as the mortal Christ taught, is not the wicked of the world, but the wicked who claim to know God but who act contrary to His will and commandments. The hypocrisy of one who has received the things of God and who claims to be God's disciple is inherently more damaging (i.e. more wicked) than the hypocrisy of the worldly hordes strolling the halls and thronging the observation decks of the great and spacious building.

[NeuroTypical]

17 hours ago, Vort said:

Why is it that those who vote for Trump are expected to apologize for their vote and explain their thinking, while those who vote for the far more vomitous Biden feel no such constraints?

Yeah, the moral discontinuity between right and left still seems to be a thing. For example:   Lisa Bloom, lawyer who has built a career representing women who have been assaulted and are pursuing justice: 

 

Can anyone find a single republican willing to claim similar allegations against Trump are all founded, but still openly support him anyway?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations

 

 

[old]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This is why I'm not bothering to vote ... at all... this time around.

First, I'm in Texas, so it probably won't make a difference.

Second, we are depending on politicians to save us?  Really?  The only thing that will save us is if we, as a nation, return to God.  And that ain't happening.  Why would I bother thinking anything else I do will change the outcome?

Our system of government is only viable with a moral and religious people.  And even the religious among us have forgotten what our religion even is.  So many professed Christians live a completely worldly life and excuse it all by saying, "God loves me unconditionally.  So, I'm fine."

We will not survive temporally or spiritually on that cultural attitude.  We have become so corrupt that only a tyrannical government properly govern us.  But in this day, with the people who are vying for power, the tyrant in charge will not be favorable to traditional Christian virtues.

So, again... I have given up on the democratic process in this country.

100%. Politics is downstream from culture.

[old]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Many today worship a God who bears only passing resemblance to the God of our fathers. 2 Nephi 28:7-8 has never been more reflective of society than it is today:

Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Verse 9 names this abomination for what it is: "...false and vain and foolish doctrines..."

It's easy to blame this mess we are in on the irreligious and godless. Easy, but wrong. The godless wicked, like the poor, we have always with us. Theirs is the common condition of fallen humanity. They are to be pitied and reclaimed by love as errant brothers and sisters, not reviled for their perceived filthiness. The problem, as the mortal Christ taught, is not the wicked of the world, but the wicked who claim to know God but who act contrary to His will and commandments. The hypocrisy of one who has received the things of God and who claims to be God's disciple is inherently more damaging (i.e. more wicked) than the hypocrisy of the worldly hordes strolling the halls and thronging the observation decks of the great and spacious building.

100% it isn't the irreligious and the godless that are causing this mess.

It's the salt that has lost it's savour.

[Vort]

Thomas Jefferson: "Indeed I tremble for my country when reflect that God is just [and] that his justice cannot sleep for ever..."

[old]

12 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Bold of you to assume that I care what happens to literally any politician, especially Biden. Politics is a cutthroat business.

Meh, you only claim to not care b/c your guy isn't in charge. It's all about power.  You've admitted to being petty and that in effect whether one side is using the power of the government it doesn't really matter...b/c it's not "your guy".

But as soon as "your guy" gets in charge, you'd either a) do the same thing to others or b) moan and groan if it was done to your guy.