Except from missionary son letter.

[mikbone]

Been 5 days since we had a comment on  gospel discussion.

“It says Jesus preached to the Spirits in Prison but it doesn't call it “Spirit Prison”. I hate whoever came up with the idea of calling it Spirit Prison it should be referred to as Hell or Outer Darkness because that's what it's called in the scriptures but whoever called it Spirit Prison made that up and I'm never saying Spirit Prison again because of that. 

 

Not only do I hate the name Spirit Prison but I really don't like how all this time I thought it was different from Hell/Outer Darkness. IT'S THE SAME! as missionaries were asked to teach that Spirit Prison/Spirit School/ the State of limitations is just a place where we learn of God and have the opportunity to accept him, first of all that's wrong. Number one is because once again we're still not calling it by name instead we're asked to call It names that aren't found In the scriptures “Spirit Prison/Spirit School/ the State of limitations'' were asked specifically to teach that it's a state of Limitations because that's what it's referred to in Preach my Gospel so that's probably number one. Number two stating that it's a place where we experience limitations which is true but that is a huge understatement! The scriptures say that “there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth”

Now I understand that saying these things are scary and probably won't be as comforting/receptive to hear as “a state of limitations” but I don't want to be teaching something that's only partly true. I'm still going to because I'm told to but I don't like doing It.”

 

Apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

[Traveler]

7 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Been 5 days since we had a comment on  gospel discussion.

 

“It says Jesus preached to the Spirits in Prison but it doesn't call it “Spirit Prison”. I hate whoever came up with the idea of calling it Spirit Prison it should be referred to as Hell or Outer Darkness because that's what it's called in the scriptures but whoever called it Spirit Prison made that up and I'm never saying Spirit Prison again because of that. 

 

Not only do I hate the name Spirit Prison but I really don't like how all this time I thought it was different from Hell/Outer Darkness. IT'S THE SAME! as missionaries were asked to teach that Spirit Prison/Spirit School/ the State of limitations is just a place where we learn of God and have the opportunity to accept him, first of all that's wrong. Number one is because once again we're still not calling it by name instead we're asked to call It names that aren't found In the scriptures “Spirit Prison/Spirit School/ the State of limitations'' were asked specifically to teach that it's a state of Limitations because that's what it's referred to in Preach my Gospel so that's probably number one. Number two stating that it's a place where we experience limitations which is true but that is a huge understatement! The scriptures say that “there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth”

Now I understand that saying these things are scary and probably won't be as comforting/receptive to hear as “a state of limitations” but I don't want to be teaching something that's only partly true. I'm still going to because I'm told to but I don't like doing It.”

 

Apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

Isaiah explains why many descriptions of divine and spiritual things change over time.  The reason is that the understanding of such things are fluid rather than static.  Isaiah explains it this way ---- Line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.

Thanks for encouraging discussion.

 

The Traveler

Edited July 16, 2024 by Traveler

[ZealoulyStriving]

They aren't the same:

*Hell is like "the hole"/solitary confinement.

*Regular Spirit Prison is like a Level 1 (minimum security) yard with all the programs, recreation, and other privileges.

[laronius]

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

I think spirit prison is actually a better term to use when teaching those not of our faith. Hell in our beliefs is quite different than what most Christians believe.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

I hate whoever came up with the idea of calling it Spirit Prison it should be referred to as Hell or Outer Darkness because that's what it's called in the scriptures but whoever called it Spirit Prison made that up and I'm never saying Spirit Prison again because of that. 

"Hell" is an overloaded word with false connotations, e.g. forever burning and never consumed. "Outer darkness" is normally used in LDS circles to describe the "kingdom of no glory" inherited by those who are forever condemned, those who love and serve Satan. "Spirit prison" is an accurate and concise description that, IMO, works very well for us today.

[askandanswer]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

Now I understand that saying these things are scary and probably won't be as comforting/receptive to hear as “a state of limitations” but I don't want to be teaching something that's only partly true. I'm still going to because I'm told to but I don't like doing It.”

I think its a bit concerning for a missionary to preach something that they don't believe. Perhaps your son could reflect on the importance of bringing his beliefs into line with those of church authorities rather than reluctantly choosing to go along with beliefs that he thinks are false. 

[zil2]

OK...  Initial thought:

Quote

Alma 18:24 And Ammon began to speak unto him with boldness, and said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God?

25 And he answered, and said unto him: I do not know what that meaneth.

26 And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?

27 And he said, Yea.

28 And Ammon said: This is God.

Here we have an example of Ammon transitioning someone from one understanding to another.  Instead of first getting hung up on the technicality that God isn't the "Great Spirit", Ammon just works with what Lamoni understands.  As others have mentioned, "Spirit Prison" - or a prison designed to hold spirits after their mortal lives end - is a pretty accurate term.

Next thought: How often is this concept, and the term "prison", used in scripture? (I'll be relying on indexes since I've never cared enough to get all technical about the location/state of post-mortal spirits vs pre-mortal rebellious spirits who were cast out vs resurrected Sons of Perdition vs post-judgement rebellious spirits vs the kitchen sink.)

• Isaiah 24:22, as far as I can tell speaks of the wicked being "shut up in the prison" during the Millennium
• Isaiah 42:7, I suppose you could argue either of two meanings - the Lord rescuing the righteous who are unjustly imprisoned (not what I think), or the Lord opening the spirit prison through proxy work (what I think)
• Isaiah 61:1, ditto
• 1 Peter 3:19, as already mentioned
• Revelation 20:7, describes Satan as in a prison
• D&C 76:73, mentions spirits in prison to whom the gospel was preached (see also 138:8–10, 18–21, 28–37)
• D&C 88:99, when those who were in prison are resurrected
• D&C 128:22, Also mentions the dead being redeemed "out of their prison"
• Moses 7:38, the Lord speaks of a prison prepared for those who will die in the flood
• Moses 7:57, speaks of spirits in prison at the Second Coming

So, while the exact phrase "Spirit Prison" doesn't appear in scriptures, "prison" is clearly used as a location / state for some spirits (interestingly, not in the Book of Mormon).  While your son could just call it "prison" as the scriptures do, that could get confusing, depending on context and the person to whom he's speaking.

In regards to the difference between prison and hell (and its various other terms): my understanding is that baptism is required to escape spirit prison - or at least to progress in the spirit world.  Thus, spirit prison would not be a uniform state for everyone there - some might be in the depths of wickedness (hell) while others are simply average people who have not yet had any ordinances done by proxy (limitations).  Now this impression could be wrong and I don't have time to go dig around to see if I can find talks or articles about it - honestly, I doubt there's anything explicit said (though see the quote at the end of this reply).  But even if it's not correct, I still suspect that this prison holds a wide range of people from bad to horrific.

Final thought: I don't have time for it tonight, but related index topics to study:

• Hell (and all the topics linked at the top); topic article
• Outer Darkness (ditto)
• perdition, bottomless pit, second death, everlasting fire, lake of fire & brimstone, damnation might all need to be studied too.
• Spirit world, also not found in scripture (D&C 138 comes close with "world of spirits")

IMO, only after studying all these, and perhaps the writings of prophets, might one be able to speak about distinctions and which term is "correct" in any given situation.

PS: Here's a quote from then Elder Nelson, April 2015 GC, "The Sabbath Is a Delight"

Quote

Make the Sabbath a delight by finding your ancestors and liberating them from spirit prison!

Personally, I'm not second guessing a prophet.

To be as blunt as your son, I think he's not in a position to reject the term and is straining at a gnat.  Humility would be better than begrudging obedience.

Edited July 16, 2024 by zil2

[ZealoulyStriving]

From Gospel Principles, Chapter 41:

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

*A wonderful soul like Mother Teresa is not in a condition akin to that of Ron Lafferty. To say that all that haven't received the Gospel suffer in weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth, fearfully waiting for the justice of God to fall upon them is not what the scriptures or the Church teaches. The Alma verses referenced specifically refer to the wicked, those who have chosen evil works, and have no part nor portion of the Spirit of God dwelling in them. That does not describe Mother Teresa or the vast majority of Christians (or even non-Christians) doing the best with the knowledge they currently possess. Hell (Outer Darkness) is for a special breed rebellious evildoers.*

Edited July 17, 2024 by ZealoulyStriving

[mikbone]

Thanks for all the responses.  I knew it would hit a nerve and get some responses.

I’m just happy that he is starting to study the scriptures as the primary source.

I related that he should probably not make such a big fuss between the terms spirit prison and spirits in prison.

Also that he is better off sharing scriptures particularly D&C 138.

I not a big fan of dumbing down the scriptures for a text like preach my gospel.

I was encouraged to prepare for my mission by reading the missionary prep books

I read them, and for good reason they are no longer recommended…

[Vort]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

I’m just happy that he is starting to study the scriptures as the primary source.

👍👍

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

I not a big fan of dumbing down the scriptures for a text like preach my gospel.

I had not noticed that Preach My Gospel particularly dumbed down anything. It has seemed to offer clear and accurate, if not always complete, explanations.

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

I was encouraged to prepare for my mission by reading the missionary prep books

I read them, and for good reason they are no longer recommended…

I'm curious to know what you find those good reasons to be.

[mikbone]

43 minutes ago, Vort said:

👍👍

I had not noticed that Preach My Gospel particularly dumbed down anything. It has seemed to offer clear and accurate, if not always complete, explanations.

I'm curious to know what you find those good reasons to be.

To tell truth.  I haven't read the entire text.

But I was a missionary from ‘89-91.  I was taught to teach the gospel in an abnormal and un-natural way.  Memorize the discussions and encourage the investigators to keep their questions till the end of the presentation.  I was encouraged to roll-play and try to manipulate the spirit and try to encourage investigators to identify the spirit even if they did not feel it.

I didn’t particularly like the book Jesus the Christ.  And found much of the other missionary prep books uninspired.  

There is great difference between scripture and current policy material. At least there was during my mission. 

The Holy Ghost does the conversion not the missionary or the material. 

I find that I receive much more inspiration from the scriptures than textbooks.

Why do we ask the investigators to read the Book of Mormon instead of Preach my Gospel?

For missionaries that don’t have a testimony or a reasonable grasp of the scriptures a textbook is probably a good idea.  

[Vort]

I pretty much agree with what you wrote. Jesus the Christ is a fine book with some really good information, but frankly he could have used a strong editor.

[mikbone]

Another part of the communication from my current missionary son…

 

Preach my Gospel Chapter 12

"Confirmations are under the direction of the bishop. However, he does not conduct a separate interview for confirmation."

 

-President McNabb

"Take a look at 18.8 in the general handbook. They recently just made a big update.

The full-time missionaries coordinate with ward leaders to plan the confirmation of converts as noted in 18.7.2. Converts may be confirmed at the baptismal service or in sacrament meeting in the ward where they live as soon as possible after their baptism.

We now have the keys over confirmation for converts. And that is to be done as soon as possible after their baptism."

I had them (the missionaries in my district) cross out that "Confirmations are under the direction of the bishop." And I had them write in, follow the council of the Mission President

Edited July 17, 2024 by mikbone

[ZealoulyStriving]

56 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Another part of the communication from my current missionary son…

 

Preach my Gospel Chapter 12

"Confirmations are under the direction of the bishop. However, he does not conduct a separate interview for confirmation."

 

-President McNabb

"Take a look at 18.8 in the general handbook. They recently just made a big update.

The full-time missionaries coordinate with ward leaders to plan the confirmation of converts as noted in 18.7.2. Converts may be confirmed at the baptismal service or in sacrament meeting in the ward where they live as soon as possible after their baptism.

We now have the keys over confirmation for converts. And that is to be done as soon as possible after their baptism."

I had them (the missionaries in my district) cross out that "Confirmations are under the direction of the bishop." And I had them write in, follow the council of the Mission President

Quibbler Alert:

Doctrine and Covenants 20

"68 The duty of the members after they are received by baptism—The elders or priests are to have a sufficient time to expound all things concerning the church of Christ to their understanding, previous to their partaking of the sacrament and being confirmed by the laying on of the hands of the elders, so that all things may be done in order."

*Are the discussions sufficient time and do they expound all things concerning the Church?*

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

Quibbler Alert:

Doctrine and Covenants 20

"68 The duty of the members after they are received by baptism—The elders or priests are to have a sufficient time to expound all things concerning the church of Christ to their understanding, previous to their partaking of the sacrament and being confirmed by the laying on of the hands of the elders, so that all things may be done in order."

*Are the discussions sufficient time and do they expound all things concerning the Church?*

YES!  

This is the doctrine. 

No one would ever strike-thru the scriptures, highlight yes.

The Handbook and Preach my Gospel are policy.

Sufficient time is a judgement call.  

Sounds like Bishops and Mission Presidents have been having some disputes.

Edited July 17, 2024 by mikbone

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

YES!  

This is the doctrine. 

No one would ever strike-thru the scriptures, highlight yes.

The Handbook and Preach my Gospel are policy.

Sufficient time is a judgement call.  

Sounds like Bishops and Mission Presidents have been having some disputes.

We had the legacy of those disputes in my mission in Brazil 20 years ago.  Missionaries were doing crap work at prepping investigators, baptizing them, and then abandoning them; and then blaming ward leadership when they went inactive.  Ward leaders were pleading “we have sixty active members, and you’re about to baptize ten children because you schmoozed them into saying they’d be baptized, and we do not have the capacity to minister to these people’s needs!”  And the DLs and AP’s would literally tell the bishops “you have no authority over us, and if you can’t retain converts that’s on your head, not ours”.

On the spirit prison thing:  I was taught that spirit prison had a subcategory (“Hotel Hell”, as one teacher called it) of people who were being purged of their sins; but that others in SP were where they needed to be spiritually except that they were still waiting to have their proxy ordinances done.  My inclination is that these sorts of distinctions are largely artificial—either one is in spirit prison, or one isn’t; and the reasons an individual is in spirit prison, the pain or frustration (s)he is experiencing, and the things that need to happen before that individual can “cross over” into the realm of the righteous are tailored to the individual.  (And frankly, I’m not even convinced that the difference between the spirit world/spirit prison is physical/geographical.  It may simply be a matter of one’s state of mind, the degree of communion they are able to enjoy with the Spirit, and the degree to which their memories of premortal events have been restored.)

[ZealoulyStriving]

3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

We had the legacy of those disputes in my mission in Brazil 20 years ago.  Missionaries were doing crap work at prepping investigators, baptizing them, and then abandoning them; and then blaming ward leadership when they went inactive.  Ward leaders were pleading “we have sixty active members, and you’re about to baptize ten children because you schmoozed them into saying they’d be baptized, and we do not have the capacity to minister to these people’s needs!”  And the DLs and AP’s would literally tell the bishops “you have no authority over us, and if you can’t retain converts that’s on your head, not ours”.

On the spirit prison thing:  I was taught that spirit prison had a subcategory (“Hotel Hell”, as one teacher called it) of people who were being purged of their sins; but that others in SP were where they needed to be spiritually except that they were still waiting to have their proxy ordinances done.  My inclination is that these sorts of distinctions are largely artificial—either one is in spirit prison, or one isn’t; and the reasons an individual is in spirit prison, the pain or frustration (s)he is experiencing, and the things that need to happen before that individual can “cross over” into the realm of the righteous are tailored to the individual.  (And frankly, I’m not even convinced that the difference between the spirit world/spirit prison is physical/geographical.  It may simply be a matter of one’s state of mind, the degree of communion they are able to enjoy with the Spirit, and the degree to which their memories of premortal events have been restored.)

I don't think we have really bought into the idea that things on the earth are patterned after "heavenly" things. Prisons on earth are in the same sphere (geographical area) as the free world. We can go to visit prison, they can't come to us- until they are released. We just need to look at our lives here on earth to get a general idea of what is waiting for us.

[zil2]

Seems consistent with, if less detailed / differently focused than, the account I linked at the end of this comment:

 

[Vort]

12 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

I don't think we have really bought into the idea that things on the earth are patterned after "heavenly" things.

The things of God and of the kingdom of God in our earthly experience are patterned after heavenly things. I do not believe that the modern prison system is patterned after divine things of eternity.

[ZealoulyStriving]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

The things of God and of the kingdom of God in our earthly experience are patterned after heavenly things. I do not believe that the modern prison system is patterned after divine things of eternity.

I think the world of spirits will be more familiar than we realize.

[zil2]

42 minutes ago, Vort said:

The things of God and of the kingdom of God in our earthly experience are patterned after heavenly things. I do not believe that the modern prison system is patterned after divine things of eternity.

I agree, but it does make sense to me that those in spirit prison are not walking amongst those in paradise - they are in a separate space and cannot leave until permitted.  (This is what I believe, as related in that PDF, and makes sense to me, but I don't know of scripture or prophetic word that says so, therefore, take it for all it's worth... )

[Vort]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

I agree, but it does make sense to me that those in spirit prison are not walking amongst those in paradise - they are in a separate space and cannot leave until permitted.  (This is what I believe, as related in that PDF, and makes sense to me, but I don't know of scripture or prophetic word that says so, therefore, take it for all it's worth... )

I agree. I was trying to point out that in our application of principles (e.g. things on earth are an echo of things in heaven) we take care not to err by taking things too far. "Too far" can be defined only by the Spirit. Maybe there really is a tight relationship between our modern 21st-century penal system and God's spiritual segregation of the covenant from the unwashed.

[Traveler]

On 7/16/2024 at 7:17 PM, mikbone said:

Thanks for all the responses.  I knew it would hit a nerve and get some responses.

I’m just happy that he is starting to study the scriptures as the primary source.

I related that he should probably not make such a big fuss between the terms spirit prison and spirits in prison.

Also that he is better off sharing scriptures particularly D&C 138.

I not a big fan of dumbing down the scriptures for a text like preach my gospel.

I was encouraged to prepare for my mission by reading the missionary prep books

I read them, and for good reason they are no longer recommended…

I would say some things about why I believe everyone should read the book, “Jesus The Christ” by James E. Talmage.

1.  James E. Talmage was called and ordained an Apostle of Jesus Christ.  The calling of Apostle is a divine calling to be a special witness of Jesus Christ to the world.

2.  When Elder Talmage wrote the Book “Jesus The Christ” he did so with the attitude of fasting and prayer – exclusively in the House of the L-rd (Salt Lake City Temple).

3.  Elder Talmage was specifically asked by and directed (called) by the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to write the book.

4.  After the book was completed, it was read by the First Presidency and published from the Church’s press by the approval of the First Presidency.

5.  All financial proceeds and profits acquired from the sell of the book are donated to become sacred funds in the Kingdom of G-d on earth

6.  I know personally 4 general authorities during my travels here on earth.  All of them have the book, “Jesus The Christ” as an integral part of their sacred library.

Not recommending that missionaries read “Jesus The Christ” while on a mission, does not mean that it is recommended that missionaries not ever read “Jesus The Christ”.  I would like very much to hear an explanation in more detail (like in case like Ammon and Arron) of why you seem to be rejecting a witness of an Apostle of Christ.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Not recommending that missionaries read “Jesus The Christ” while on a mission, does not mean that it is recommended that missionaries not ever read “Jesus The Christ”.  I would like very much to hear an explanation in more detail (like in case like Ammon and Arron) of why you seem to be rejecting a witness of an Apostle of Christ.

 

The Traveler

I read Jesus The Christ, The Messiah Series (McConkie's 6 volume set), Days of the Living Christ (Cleon Skousen's 2 set volume), and the Gospels.

I can only recommend the Gospels at this point in my life.

If someone pushed and asked that I recommend a second study source I would recommend Days of the Living Christ.