Starship did it!

[mikbone]

 

[NeuroTypical]

Thing of beauty.   I remember watching the test flights where the thing blew up around the stage they all thought it would, and everyone cheered because all the data they were collecting would keep things moving forward.

Artistic.

And the booster fell back into the launch gate?  It didn't even land, it just went home like a roomba and docked itself?

Amazing.

[mikbone]

Yup, amazing.

And the Starship soft landed in the Indian Ocean right next to a buoy they had placed.  So much more data.

First thing to give me hope this year.

Edited October 13, 2024 by mikbone

[Vort]

I watched the webcast live (or as near to live as I could have managed) this morning at 4:00. I was pretty much smiling and shaking my head in disbelief throughout. When the Superheavy booster alit on the tower, I mumbled out loud, "He did it". Elon Musk is not exactly the person I want to pattern my life around, but nevertheless I'm totally a fanboy. Despite the things he does wrong (things which hurt mainly himself), he does a whole lot right (things which help everyone else, except maybe Democrat politicians).

[Traveler]

23 hours ago, mikbone said:

Yup, amazing.

And the Starship soft landed in the Indian Ocean right next to a buoy they had placed.  So much more data.

First thing to give me hope this year.

Just letting you know that reading your posts has given me hope all this year.  😎

 

The Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

On 10/13/2024 at 10:12 PM, Vort said:

I watched the webcast live (or as near to live as I could have managed) this morning at 4:00. I was pretty much smiling and shaking my head in disbelief throughout. When the Superheavy booster alit on the tower, I mumbled out loud, "He did it". Elon Musk is not exactly the person I want to pattern my life around, but nevertheless I'm totally a fanboy. Despite the things he does wrong (things which hurt mainly himself), he does a whole lot right (things which help everyone else, except maybe Democrat politicians).

 

My understanding is that SpaceX is the one area which he doesn't actually impact that much.  They run interference and have a bunch of people agree to whatever he says, but they aren't connected to the actual engineers so nothing he says has any impact on the work they do...as opposed to Tesla where they get things like the Cyber Truck and other things...or Twitter/X which is where Musk's true handling of a company can be seen when there is no one to separate his desires and wishes from the running of the company.

The success of SpaceX, from what I understand has very little to do with Musk's input.

Which makes sense when you realize Elon Musks true abilities lie more with stock manipulation and stocks rather than his actual engineering abilities. 

You normally don't get fabulously wealthy off of engineering, but you do off of financial abilities and market ingenuity. 

Edited October 16, 2024 by JohnsonJones

[NeuroTypical]

5 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

They run interference and have a bunch of people agree to whatever he says, but they aren't connected to the actual engineers so nothing he says has any impact on the work they do

I don't know one way or the other.  But I do know how the world generates backlash against transformative people.  It wouldn't surprise me one bit that a hundred talking heads are out there publishing articles and making that claim.  It also wouldn't surprise me one bit that every single one of them is painting an inaccurate picture. 

In 2002 he was the CEO and chief engineer.  Per Wiki, they're his current titles.  I suppose someone can be an absent figurehead or a rubber stamp with such titles, but Wiki says this: 

Quote

Leadership style
Musk is often described as a micromanager and has called himself a "nano-manager".[252] The New York Times has characterized his approach as absolutist.[253] Musk does not make formal business plans.[253] He has forced employees to adopt the company's own jargon and launched ambitious, risky, and costly projects against his advisors' recommendations, such as removing front-facing radar from Tesla Autopilot. His insistence on vertical integration causes his companies to move most production in-house. While this resulted in saved costs for SpaceX's rocket,[254] vertical integration (as of 2018) has caused many usability problems for Tesla's internal corporate software.[252]

Musk's handling of employees—whom he communicates with directly through mass emails—has been characterized as "carrot and stick", rewarding those "who offer constructive criticism" while also being known to impulsively threaten, swear at, and fire his employees.[255][256][257] Musk said he expects his employees to work for long hours, sometimes 80 hours per week.[258] He has his new employees sign strict non-disclosure agreements and often fires in sprees,[259][257] such as during the Model 3 "production hell" in 2018.[257] In 2022, Musk revealed plans to fire 10 percent of Tesla's workforce, due to his concerns about the economy.[260] That same month, he suspended remote work at SpaceX and Tesla and threatened to fire employees who do not work 40 hours per week in the office.[261] He laid off more than 10 percent of the Tesla workforce in early 2024.

Musk's leadership has been praised by some, who credit it with the success of Tesla and his other endeavors,[252] and criticized by others, who see him as callous and his managerial decisions as "show[ing] a lack of human understanding."[257][262] The 2021 book Power Play contains anecdotes of Musk berating employees.[263] The Wall Street Journal reported that, after Musk insisted on branding his vehicles as "self-driving", he faced criticism from his engineers for putting customer "lives at risk", with some employees resigning in consequence.[264]

Doesn't sound "that SpaceX is the one area which he doesn't actually impact that much."   

Again, I don't have the faintest clue.  I'm just going off of what I see when I search online for an answer.

[Vort]

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

My understanding is that SpaceX is the one area which he doesn't actually impact that much.  They run interference and have a bunch of people agree to whatever he says, but they aren't connected to the actual engineers so nothing he says has any impact on the work they do...The success of SpaceX, from what I understand has very little to do with Musk's input.

Funny. My understanding is the exact polar opposite: Musk is an engineering genius who is intimately involved in SpaceX's decisions, policy, direction, and success. In comparison, he delegates much of his responsibility to others at Tesla, but remains intimately involved with every aspect of SpaceX's operations. I have read many articles on this topic, and they all seem unanimous in agreeing that Musk is a constant, deeply influential presence at SpaceX, including (or especially) in the engineering details.

If you have any evidence—any at all, any scrap of reliable reporting—to indicate that Musk is more a figurehead at SpaceX than an actual involved entity, please feel free to provide it. If you do not, I will assume you are just another person easily swayed by Musk's detractors.

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Which makes sense when you realize Elon Musks true abilities lie more with stock manipulation and stocks rather than his actual engineering abilities.

Unbelievable.

Here is a man who has literally invented a space launch company within the last 25 years that has now become the most successful the planet has ever seen; has created a new automobile brand from scratch that has become wildly successful, something never seen in my lifetime; has spurred innovation into many areas, not just of research but of active development. Musk has changed the face of our economy and society. And then there's JohnsonJones, who assures us with his great wisdom and understanding that Musk is actually merely a master of stock manipulation with no real engineering ability. Whom are we to believe? Tough, tough choice.

Unbelievable.

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

You normally don't get fabulously wealthy off of engineering, but you do off of financial abilities and market ingenuity. 

Tell that to the railroad barons of the late 1800s. Yes, they brazenly used what we today would call insider knowledge to fleece other investors and line their pockets—something that Elon Musk has never done, nor even been accused of—but it was all based on railroad technology and improvements. In other words, engineering technology and improvements that I would add we use to this very day.

JJ, you're a hater. You hate Elon Musk and seek to minimize or deny his accomplishments. I don't know why you're doing it, but be assured I see what you are doing.

[mikbone]

Elon has vision.  Planned it out 2 years ago and made it happen.  

 

Notice how Elon entering the market totally changed the curve.  

Edited October 16, 2024 by mikbone

[Vort]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

Notice how Elon entering the market totally changed the curve.  

Notice also what the worst (highest) cost-per-mass is. Even today, people look at the space shuttle as some symbol of technological prowess. It was nothing of the sort. If anything, it was the opposite. The space shuttle is the reason I will likely not live to see lunar bases or Martian colonies.

[JohnsonJones]

13 hours ago, Vort said:

Funny. My understanding is the exact polar opposite: Musk is an engineering genius who is intimately involved in SpaceX's decisions, policy, direction, and success. In comparison, he delegates much of his responsibility to others at Tesla, but remains intimately involved with every aspect of SpaceX's operations. I have read many articles on this topic, and they all seem unanimous in agreeing that Musk is a constant, deeply influential presence at SpaceX, including (or especially) in the engineering details.

If you have any evidence—any at all, any scrap of reliable reporting—to indicate that Musk is more a figurehead at SpaceX than an actual involved entity, please feel free to provide it. If you do not, I will assume you are just another person easily swayed by Musk's detractors.

Unbelievable.

Here is a man who has literally invented a space launch company within the last 25 years that has now become the most successful the planet has ever seen; has created a new automobile brand from scratch that has become wildly successful, something never seen in my lifetime; has spurred innovation into many areas, not just of research but of active development. Musk has changed the face of our economy and society. And then there's JohnsonJones, who assures us with his great wisdom and understanding that Musk is actually merely a master of stock manipulation with no real engineering ability. Whom are we to believe? Tough, tough choice.

Unbelievable.

Tell that to the railroad barons of the late 1800s. Yes, they brazenly used what we today would call insider knowledge to fleece other investors and line their pockets—something that Elon Musk has never done, nor even been accused of—but it was all based on railroad technology and improvements. In other words, engineering technology and improvements that I would add we use to this very day.

JJ, you're a hater. You hate Elon Musk and seek to minimize or deny his accomplishments. I don't know why you're doing it, but be assured I see what you are doing.

 

Okay...think what you will.

It's no skin off my back.  I was just clarifying what Elon Musk actually does.  He does not even have an engineering degree, much less a degree in mechanical or electrical.  He has a BA in physics (not even a BS) and a BS in economics. 

The things I stated are what I've gotten via various contacts (or friends in the university).  I don't personally know the guy. 

Gwynne Shotwell is the one who makes SpaceX successful.  The way they handle Musk and do things behind the scenes is why SpaceX is probably more successful than things where Musk shows how he really does things when he is in control (Twitter/X).

 I'm not a Musk hater.  I don't get the love people have of him.  It seems some put him on a pedestal and think he is their best friend.  He doesn't even know most of them exist.  (He doesn't even know I exist most likely, unless he's read books where I'm involved or other areas which I would have been involved in...so I'd put that as extremely low chances)

He's a big geek in all honesty, from what I've seen.  He really gets into things.  I gets really excited about things.  However, he and the companies he invests in do best when he lets them do their thing and stays out of it.  His Forte is stocks and market manipulation.  In that area he may be an absolute genius.  It also got him pegged at least once (forced twitter buy), though in most instances he does it he gets away with it.  I would say he's absolutely the master at it. 

It's NOT in mechanical or electrical engineering though. 

You don't have to believe me.  It doesn't bother me whether you do or don't.  If I were you,  you may even be happier if you don't believe me. 

The people at SpaceX work best because it's NOT public knowledge for the most part.  So...no...not a ton of evidence to find out there because that's how they want it.

The only article I found that leaked anything close to this this would be here

Theinformation.com

And it's behind a paywall...so not something to easily quote or put without breaking their terms. 

The only other evidence to see with your own eyes is how Twitter/X is doing with his direct control...vs....other companies which he exerts control over to greater or lesser degrees.  Twitter/X is the one he probably has the most direct control over day to day and takes the most interest in currently. 

I'm not an economic genius, and my thoughts that Twitter would fail rather quickly were absolutely wrong (I thought it would be dead pretty quick as I think I stated when he got it and started firing a lot of people early on), but I wouldn't say he's exactly been stellar for making it a grandiose success either. 

 

(PS: I'd also say he's a master at grifting from the US government...aka...what many research professors would love to be able to do.  Basically, he is a master at getting money from the US taxpayers to fund many of his investment companies projects.  Some are greatly beneficial [for example...SpaceX which we've had a difference of opinion of how involved he is in it's success] and others are not so successful.  I know a lot of professors that would love to be that successful in getting grants and such from the government).

 

PPS:  (I should add, he didn't create Tesla.  He bought Tesla and forced some of those who actually founded it out of the company.  He wants to be included as a founder and has tried to twist and change the history of the company to say that he was, but he was not there at the beginning.  The engine was not created by him and the process was not either.  The items set in motion for the first vehicle basically were already going along without him, though they didn't have the money to accomplish it which is where he finally came into the picture.  His actions of late have actually probably hurt the company in many ways and his ideas aren't not making great vehicles these days [the Cyber truck is more of his direct ideas and control than some of the prior vehicles from what I surmise.  If you think that is a quality vehicle...good for you.  I personally would not spend money on it and would be hesitant to get one for free].  You may also counter me in that from what I hear, Tesla has been losing ground in the Electronic car market as of late as others vehicle makers take ground away from it). 

Edited October 17, 2024 by JohnsonJones

[NeuroTypical]

If there's a 2nd place to all this, I'd vote the Boston Dynamics robots. 

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/8Kuat8GJnyQM8ngA/

[mikbone]

Impressive direction and engineering.  This progression took 4 years from 2020 to 2024.

Imagine a government agency doing a similar improvement…  Highly unlikely.

Edited October 18, 2024 by mikbone

[Jedi_Nephite]

I’m disappointed.  I thought this thread was going to be about some people who built a city.

[Vort]

25 minutes ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

I’m disappointed.  I thought this thread was going to be about some people who built a city.

You can build a city on rocks, but not on rolls.

[Vort]

28 minutes ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

I’m disappointed.  I thought this thread was going to be about some people who built a city.

[zil2]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

You can build a city on rocks, but not on rolls.

Ah, but now I'm imagining a city built of rolls...  Yummm!  Edible buildings....  I recommend not buying above the first floor, lest your rooms collapse when the cinnamon roll you were built on gets eaten...

[Jedi_Nephite]

15 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Ah, but now I'm imagining a city built of rolls...  Yummm!  Edible buildings....  I recommend not buying above the first floor, lest your rooms collapse when the cinnamon roll you were built on gets eaten...

The pigeons might also be a problem.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Ah, but now I'm imagining a city built of rolls...  Yummm!  Edible buildings.... 

Um, AI would request what sort of rolls...

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Um, AI would request what sort of rolls...

Well, after you eat the city of sweet rolls, we'll have enough toilet paper for... the toilet.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Carborendum

[Jedi_Nephite]

On 11/11/2024 at 7:47 AM, Carborendum said:

Well, after you eat the city of sweet rolls, we'll have enough toilet paper for... the toilet.

Someone’s always playing corporation games….

[Vort]

Two more days...

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, Vort said:

Two more days...

Stop the suffering.  Ex-lax, dude.

[Carborendum]

On 10/16/2024 at 4:47 AM, JohnsonJones said:

My understanding is that SpaceX is the one area which he doesn't actually impact that much.

Your understanding is flawed.  He is not only a very savvy businessman, he's a singular engineer.

Multiple senior level managers have said:

Quote

No matter how smart you think you are, Musk is always 10 steps ahead of you. He knows every aspect of the product from top to bottom.

 -- paraphrased

He seems to have the ability to take any suggestion you have about the product (whether technical or financial) and instantly analyze what the effect would be overall.  He identifies problems, benefits, and limitations in a split second.

While not "licensed", he has a degree in physics.  And he has been self-taught through books and other literature, as well as consulting with top experts in the field to teach him hand-on during design work on both cars and rockets.

When I consider what I had to do to receive my license, vs what I've learned by simply reading code and practicing in the design of hundreds of projects I've done, I consider all that I've done on my own (through real-world experience) as much more critical to being an effective engineer than I have through schooling or studying for my license exam.

You can hate the guy all you want.  But technical incompetence is not an accusation that will carry any water.

Edited November 18, 2024 by Carborendum

[JohnsonJones]

32 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Your understanding is flawed.  He is not only a very savvy businessman, he's a singular engineer.

He doesn't have a degree in Engineering.  He isn't even educated in it.  How can he be a singular engineer without any training, education, and definitely not certified???

Not only would it be illegal for him to sign off on things in mechanical and aeronautical items, he probably doesn't have the first clue in what he would be doing.

I thought you were an Engineer yourself.  I would imagine you know this?

I'm not an Engineer, but I know what the actual Engineers think of his qualifications in our departments (and some of these guys have personal experience with Musk, so I'd probably go with their opinions over yours...no offense).

HHe has a B.S. in Economics, but not Physics (edit:  it's a B.A. which means less strenuous and intense classes in general for the degree).

32 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Multiple senior level managers have said:

While not "licensed", he has a degree in physics.  And he has been self-taught through books and other literature, as well as consulting with top experts in the field to teach him hand-on during design work on both cars and rockets.

When I consider what I had to do to receive my license, vs what I've learned by simply reading code and practicing in the design of dozens of projects I've done, I consider all that I've done on my own (through real-world experience) as much more critical to being an effective engineer than I have through schooling or studying for my license exam.

Sources???

On that note, I've been self-taught to be a Medical Doctor and know something of how to do Surgery...

Would you trust me with your medical health and to do surgery on you?

I literally have top experts in the field within several hundred meters of me which I can consult almost every weekday!!!

I don't have any licenses and haven't been approved to do so....but I think I have a general idea how it works.

(Edit:  Just to be clear, I wouldn't trust me with your medical health.  As I said, I a not actually a doctor, and am not a medical professional or personnel.  Just like I probably wouldn't want someone who wasn't medically trained and certified to do my healthcare, I wouldn't want an engineer who wasn't trained and certified (in Civil and Mechanical, that means to sign off on something it would require a P.E.) to sign off on projects where human lives were at stake. )

Here's a source talking about Musk's qualifications and expertise from someone Musk actually really wants to promote (so someone who created something Musks is actually trying to promote and thus should be favorable to Musk...right??)

Regarding the creators of Doge (you know, that thing Musk even made his new US department an abbreviation of...D.O.G.E.)

Dogecoin creator says Musk a grifter who couldn't even run code

Quote

Palmer said he also worked with Twitter cofounder Jack Dorsey and the Twitter team so that reports would be instantly sent to them, the outlet reported. He also sent the code to other crypto influencers.

"Elon reached out to me to get hold of that script and it became apparent very quickly that he didn't understand coding as well as he made out. He asked, 'How do I run this Python script?'" Palmer said, per Crikey.

"After I gave him the script, I wasn't a fan of him. He's a grifter, he sells a vision in hopes that he can one day deliver what he's promising, but he doesn't know that," Palmer added, per the outlet. "He's just really good at pretending he knows. That's very evident with the Tesla full-self-driving promise."

That said, I think Elon Musk is actually a genius, but not in the Scientific fields.  He is an absolute genius in Stock Manipulation.  Probably one of the greatests ever...at least thus far. 

You don't get rich from being a genius in science generally unless you have someone who is good at finances and marketing, but you do get rich being a genius in finance and markets. 

It makes sense his B.S. was in economics.

As an aside, my grandson in High School works in Python and can program in it.  He hasn't even gone to college and can do a lot of things in Python. 

Edited November 18, 2024 by JohnsonJones