Went shooting today with my cousin and oldest son.

[zil2]

27 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

If you still have that shotgun you better go get it repaired or trigger lock it permanently and never shoot it again.

This was my thinking.  I've never heard of a gun firing when engaging the safety.  I'd be surprised if that safety even worked as intended once engaged.

And it is my personal opinion that an unloaded gun is mostly useless, and without a round in the chamber, your gun isn't loaded.

[Carborendum]

34 minutes ago, zil2 said:

This was my thinking.  I've never heard of a gun firing when engaging the safety.  I'd be surprised if that safety even worked as intended once engaged.

And it is my personal opinion that an unloaded gun is mostly useless, and without a round in the chamber, your gun isn't loaded.

The safety works perfectly well in all other aspects.

If the magazine is loaded, it takes one second to chamber it.

Edited November 19, 2024 by Carborendum

[zil2]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

If the magazine is loaded, it takes one second to chamber it.

Let's hope you have more than one second, then.

[Carborendum]

1 minute ago, zil2 said:

Let's hope you have more than one second, then.

I don't picture myself ever having a showdown at high noon.  I'd lose.  I've never been someone that can move that fast. 

I win through slow, methodical calculation.  That's kinda why I'm an engineer. 

If one second is going to cost me the fight, I'd lose anyway.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If the magazine is loaded, it takes one second to chamber it.

A. It also takes 2 hand. Which one may not have in the moment.

B. Under duress it can take longer than that.

Not trying to convince you to change your view. Just... you know.... chatting.

[NeuroTypical]

18 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The safety works perfectly well in all other aspects.

Other than it makes the gun shoot when you don't want it to, it's a good safety switch?

I wonder what a similar situation might look like with the seat belts of a car.  It works fine until you try to take it off, and then it ejects you through the windshield?

I mean, if it works reliably as a trigger, then maybe you can use it to shoot the thing instead of pulling the trigger.  I'm absolutely not an engineer.  If I tried to build a gun, that's the sort of 'feature' I'd end up with. 

(Don't listen to me.  I've been a anti-safety-snob ever since getting my Glock.  If you want something to come out of the barrel, pull the trigger.  If you don't want something coming out the barrel, don't pull the trigger.  Extra switches and knobs and functions and things are just things that get in the way of what needs to be the easiest operation it can be.  Folks who like safeties would probably like a bluetooth app that connects to your gun and readies it for use.)

Edited November 20, 2024 by NeuroTypical

[mirkwood]

 

[mirkwood]

 

[The Folk Prophet]

6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Other than it makes the gun shoot when you don't want it to, it's a good safety switch?

I wonder what a similar situation might look like with the seat belts of a car.  It works fine until you try to take it off, and then it ejects you through the windshield?

I mean, if it works reliably as a trigger, then maybe you can use it to shoot the thing instead of pulling the trigger.  I'm absolutely not an engineer.  If I tried to build a gun, that's the sort of 'feature' I'd end up with. 

(Don't listen to me.  I've been a anti-safety-snob ever since getting my Glock.  If you want something to come out of the barrel, pull the trigger.  If you don't want something coming out the barrel, don't pull the trigger.  Extra switches and knobs and functions and things are just things that get in the way of what needs to be the easiest operation it can be.  Folks who like safeties would probably like a bluetooth app that connects to your gun and readies it for use.)

The two reasons I prefer a safety (I don't have them on all my guns...) are,

1, just worried about my own brain/habits and thoughtlessly putting my finger on the trigger when racking it or something. A safety is one more measure that makes me stop and think about the state of the gun. Just works for my brain to have that.

2, and this is just from youtube vids I've watched rather than personal whatever, but.... if someone gets your gun away from you in a fight, the fact that it has a manual safety has been statistically shown to keep them from using it on you before you can react and deal with that reality. If they only have to pull the trigger.....

Of course that #2 is one of those theoretical internet type arguments that... you know... internet opinions. But the #1 is the real reason. I'm a smart guy. But I'm also a dumb guy. So.... anything to accentuate the smart and diminish the dumb is a win in my life, especially when it comes to legitimate safety issues.

[Carborendum]

On 11/19/2024 at 8:20 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

My home/bedside safe gun is a H&K P30 with a compensator and light attached. It has the LEM trigger which I quite like. I need to practice with it more the way you describe, just in case. But, really, what I need to get is a shotgun for home defense.

My EDC (which I don't EDC... but in theory), is a Sig P365x. When I do carry, I do with a round in the chamber. but I got the version with the manual safety. I practice drawing and turning off the safety daily though. That seems significantly better to me as an practice than having to chamber a round.

I finally got to try these two at the range.  The Sig was ok, but didn't impress me. 

The H&K appeared to be a barely smaller version of the Ruger American which I got for my daughter (which she loves).  Actually, I like the American as well.  But it is just a bit too big.  I think I'm goin to get the H&K.  They have a sale going this weekend.  We'll see.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 12/20/2024 at 8:15 PM, Carborendum said:

I finally got to try these two at the range.  The Sig was ok, but didn't impress me. 

The H&K appeared to be a barely smaller version of the Ruger American which I got for my daughter (which she loves).  Actually, I like the American as well.  But it is just a bit too big.  I think I'm goin to get the H&K.  They have a sale going this weekend.  We'll see.

So the trigger I have (you can get all sorts of different trigger/safety options) is the LEM trigger, which is cool. Especially for a home defense gun. If I was going to carry it, I'd prefer the safety with a de-cocker version.

Did you shoot the P30? P30sk? P30L? Or a VP9? H&K just released their new micro-9. The CC9. I'd love to try it out. It's a striker fire instead of a hammer (like the VP9), so the trigger's going to feel different. But I don't think it comes with a version with a safety yet (just has the trigger safety like a Glock). So it's probably not an option for you.

I'd love to try out an H&K USP. But they're pricey. But I like my H&K well enough to think I'd like any of them. And they have a reputation for being great guns.

[Carborendum]

19 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Did you shoot the P30? P30sk? P30L? Or a VP9?

It's a bit fuzzy.  But I think it was the VP9SK.  They had both models.  But I didn't like the feel of one of them, and I ended up renting the other.  But I can't remember which was which.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

41 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It's a bit fuzzy.  But I think it was the VP9SK.  They had both models.  But I didn't like the feel of one of them, and I ended up renting the other.  But I can't remember which was which.

 

Yeah, so the VP9SK is the compact version of the VP9, which is a striker fired gun. I've never shot one. But, like I said, H&K has a good rep. And the P30 (which is, essentially, the same body/grip as the VP9 but is hammer fired), is great. I've never shot the SK version of it though either.

[Carborendum]

19 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yeah, so the VP9SK is the compact version of the VP9, which is a striker fired gun. I've never shot one. But, like I said, H&K has a good rep. And the P30 (which is, essentially, the same body/grip as the VP9 but is hammer fired), is great. I've never shot the SK version of it though either.

The compact versions have differences in their handle/magazine extension.  That was why one felt different than the other.

I'm afraid I missed the sale.  We'll see.

[Carborendum]

When I was paying my fee to go into the range, I noticed a large glass bowl full of a motley of bullets.  They seemed old and dirty, scratched and dented.

I asked, "Are these all duds or something?"

"No, that's ammo where it didn't belong."

"Huh?"

"Every once in a while we have a guy who comes in with a gun in his hand.  We point out the sign on the front door about keeping your weapons in a case when you come in.  But we invariably hear 'Oh, don't worry!  It's not loaded."  We confiscate the gun.  We action it.  And a round flies up and we put it in the bowl."

"Wait.  We actually have people who still think 'Oh, don't worry, it's not loaded' is an acceptable attitude?"

He simply pointed at the bowl.

SMH.

[NeuroTypical]

23 hours ago, Carborendum said:

He simply pointed at the bowl.

Me and my buddy learned this lesson 30 years ago when we were new.  He loaded up his magazine, thought he was cool and racked one into the chamber and re-loaded the magazine, and we went to the range.   He happily counted his 10 rounds and brought in the target to see how he did.  Stuck up a new target, pointed his gun at it before sending it back down, saying "and now I'll be a good little gun owner and treat every gun as if it were loaded even though it's a dumb rule because I counted and kno*BLAM*"  He had forgotten his cool decision to be cool and carry 11 rounds with his gun that had a 10 round magazine.  Blew a head sized hole in the new target. 

Yeah, best to treat every gun as if it were always loaded.  Always imagining the trajectory of an imaginary bullet exiting the thing at any random time.  Even if you just reassembled it and are sticking it in your safe - treat it as loaded.

Edited January 2 by NeuroTypical

[mrmarklin]

By definition, guns are always loaded. 

When i hunt, I always do it with chamber empty. I don’t use a safety. If one thinks about it, there is no such thing, really. I’ve never lost a shot by taking the small movement to chamber a round. But even should that happen, better safe than sorry. 

I chamber rounds in my EDC guns because speed is of the essence in a life or death situation. The guns i use are SIG DA/SA semi automatic pistols. There is no safety, but the hammer is blocked when at rest, like a double action revolver. So it won’t discharge unless the trigger is pulled. Very safe. These SIGs use a decocker system to lower the hammer, making the pistol safe. 

[askandanswer]

I see a lot of numbers in this thread - .44, .45, 22. 207, 9 millimeter-  most of which I guess are measurements. What are these measurements of?

[zil2]

11 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I see a lot of numbers in this thread - .44, .45, 22. 207, 9 millimeter-  most of which I guess are measurements. What are these measurements of?

The diameter of the bullet.

[askandanswer]

so a .44 is .44 of a centimeter across? Which would then make it slightly larger than half a 9 millimeter? And a .22 is half the size of .44. There was a reference to a 207 which I think referred to a rifle. Is that a different scale or is it something that is almost ten times bigger than a .22? 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

so a .44 is .44 of a centimeter across? Which would then make it slightly larger than half a 9 millimeter? And a .22 is half the size of .44. There was a reference to a 207 which I think referred to a rifle. Is that a different scale or is it something that is almost ten times bigger than a .22? 

A .44 is probably 0.44 inch (0.44"). A .22 is probably 0.22".

Just looked it up. A .22 is indeed 0.223" (or 0.224"). A .44 is actually about 0.429"; the designation ".44" is based on the original brass case diameter.

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, Vort said:

A .44 is probably 0.44 inch (0.44"). A .22 is probably 0.22".

Just looked it up. A .22 is indeed 0.223" (or 0.224"). A .44 is actually about 0.429"; the designation ".44" is based on the original brass case diameter.

So some ballistics, such as a .44 are measured in imperial units, and others, such as a 9 millimeter, are measured in metric units? And I'm still not sure where the 207 rifle fits in.

[Carborendum]

15 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

So some ballistics, such as a .44 are measured in imperial units, and others, such as a 9 millimeter, are measured in metric units? And I'm still not sure where the 207 rifle fits in.

Rounds invented in nations with metric designated metric units.  Those invented in nations of imperial tended to be in imperial units.  The 9mm was invented in Germany (IIRC).  The .45, .44, & .38 (for example) were invented in the US.

The 207 is actually a .207 caliber round.  Notice that we never say "it is a point 45."  We say "it is a 45."

 

Edited January 11 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

So some ballistics, such as a .44 are measured in imperial units, and others, such as a 9 millimeter, are measured in metric units? 

Of course, the metric system is about as unamerican as you can get.  The sole (and I do mean sole) exception is the 9mm round, which has earned it's place next to the .45 round and .223, with all three comprising the venerable triumvirate of Freedom Seeds.  (The jury is still out on the 10mm, because although most true red blooded Americans think firing a 10mm round makes your wrist go a little limp, few are willing to approach the guy firing the 10mm pistol and say it to his face.)

Edited January 11 by NeuroTypical

[zil2]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

sole

Filet.  With butter.  Yum.