Jehovah versus Jesus

[laronius]

7 hours ago, Ruben said:

Do you need references? There are too many. 
In my original question there is a reference to Numbers 31, which you apparently missed. 

However the OT is full of stories of wars, the Lord commands the children of Israel to make war on the peoples who inhabited the promised land, he sends to kill without mercy, men, women and children.
He calls himself Lord of Hosts. 
He defines himself as jealous, vindictive and furious with his enemies. 

The universal flood where all humanity (except 8 people) was exterminated, men, women, children, animals.

The law of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth  as opposed to the commandment to love your enemies. 

Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserves wrath for his enemies.
And only a few examples... 

Exodus, 32:27
Leviticus, 26:27-29
Numbers, 25:9
Numbers, 31:17-18
Numbers, 31:31-40
Deuteronomy, 2:33-34
Deuteronomy, 3:6 
Deuteronomy, 20:16
Deuteronomy, 28:53

Joshua, 6:21-27

Joshua, 7:19-26
Joshua, 10:32-33
Joshua, 11:20
1 Samuel, 15:7-8
2 Samuel, 24:15

I did miss the Numbers 31 reference but thank you for providing the additional references. 

There are two things to keep in mind when reading about how the Lord deals with people, particularly in the Old Testament. First, He deals and communicates with us on our level. For a people or person with hard hearts and stuff necks He will of necessity use harsher methods in order to try to break that hardness and stiffness. I am reminded of trips to the chiropractor where actual violence is used to free up my neck and spine. The result is actually a blessing though some pain must be endured in the process. Likewise, God will use as much pain and suffering as needed to get us where we need to be.

Secondly, God is viewing everything that happens from a truly eternal perspective, something impossible for us at this point. He knows who we were in the premortal world, what needs to happen in this life and for how long to accomplish His purposes. 

When the Lord commanded the Israelites to sack an entire city there are so many factors coming into play that only an omniscient God could fathom and bring about. The people of that city were undoubtedly wicked and would have only continued in sin, making their own situation worse. The children would have been raised in wickedness, knowing no better. 

From our perspective we only see wrath and vengeance, but God sees the end from the beginning and all possible outcomes and which path will yield the most favorable results. That's something that even for people of faith is difficult to accept at times. It requires us understanding God's true character, specifically that He loves us, and a knowledge that we can completely trust Him. 

[Maverick]

On 11/26/2024 at 1:06 AM, Ruben said:

The scriptures say that God does not change, He does not repent, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. We know that Jehovah, the implacable God of the Old Testament (see Numbers 31), is the same Jesus Christ who lived in the flesh and was full of mercy and love towards humanity. How can we reconcile Jehovah's great cruelty with Jesus' great love? What kind of God should we expect after this life, the loving character of Jesus or the terrible character of Jehovah?

1. Jehovah of the OT = Jesus of the NT is a major oversimplification. Jehovah is a title, not a specific individual, and is also used to refer to God the Father frequently in the OT, if not the majority of the time.

2. Jesus and God the Father haven’t changed from the OT to the NT. They are both merciful and just (vengeful) in both books of scripture. And the same holds true for the other standard works. 

There are many instances of Jesus preaching destruction and hell fire and Brimstone upon the wicked in the NT, we just tend to gloss over those and focus on the mercy of Jesus to those who repent and have faith in him. 

[Ruben]

1. This is a possibility, but in this case we are describing an unyielding God the Father versus a merciful Jesus. Like the good cop and the bad cop.

2. We want to compare a Jesus who verbally rages against the Pharisees or a Jesus who expels merchants from the temple with a Jehovah who carries out a "genocide" with a flood.

[Ruben]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

I did miss the Numbers 31 reference but thank you for providing the additional references. 

There are two things to keep in mind when reading about how the Lord deals with people, particularly in the Old Testament. First, He deals and communicates with us on our level. For a people or person with hard hearts and stuff necks He will of necessity use harsher methods in order to try to break that hardness and stiffness. I am reminded of trips to the chiropractor where actual violence is used to free up my neck and spine. The result is actually a blessing though some pain must be endured in the process. Likewise, God will use as much pain and suffering as needed to get us where we need to be.

Secondly, God is viewing everything that happens from a truly eternal perspective, something impossible for us at this point. He knows who we were in the premortal world, what needs to happen in this life and for how long to accomplish His purposes. 

When the Lord commanded the Israelites to sack an entire city there are so many factors coming into play that only an omniscient God could fathom and bring about. The people of that city were undoubtedly wicked and would have only continued in sin, making their own situation worse. The children would have been raised in wickedness, knowing no better. 

From our perspective we only see wrath and vengeance, but God sees the end from the beginning and all possible outcomes and which path will yield the most favorable results. That's something that even for people of faith is difficult to accept at times. It requires us understanding God's true character, specifically that He loves us, and a knowledge that we can completely trust Him. 

Do you really think that we, today, are better than ancient peoples? I have some doubts. Did ancient peoples really have tougher necks than ours?

[Maverick]

18 minutes ago, Ruben said:

1. This is a possibility, but in this case we are describing an unyielding God the Father versus a merciful Jesus. Like the good cop and the bad cop.

2. We want to compare a Jesus who verbally rages against the Pharisees or a Jesus who expels merchants from the temple with a Jehovah who carries out a "genocide" with a flood.

1. Not at all.

2. Are you unfamiliar with Jesus teachings that the destruction in the last days upon the wicked will be like the “genocide” carried out by the flood or the raining of fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah?

Or this statement by Jesus:

27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke 19) 

Who killed that couple in the book of Acts for lying about holding back some of their property and not consecrating all of it? 

[LDSGator]

17 minutes ago, Ruben said:

Do you really think that we, today, are better than ancient peoples?

Better? No, humans are pretty much the same throughout history, even though we romanticize the past.

[zil2]

49 minutes ago, Ruben said:

Do you really think that we, today, are better than ancient peoples? I have some doubts. Did ancient peoples really have tougher necks than ours?

Presumably you are asking why we don't see the level of violence you perceive in the OT? Erm, haven't you read the prophecies about what will happen on earth in the years leading up to the Second Coming.  Do you think that will be better than the OT violence?  Also, try to remember that the scriptural accounts are very compressed.  If we compacted all the violence since the birth of Christ into as short a summary as the OT, it would look awfully violent, too.

 

36 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Who killed that couple in the book of Acts for lying about holding back some of their property and not consecrating all of it? 

Actually, it was for lying about it - they were free to consecrate or not, but they chose to lie and pretend to consecrate their all - that was the problem.

[Maverick]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

Who killed that couple in the book of Acts for lying about holding back some of their property and not consecrating all of it? 

Actually, it was for lying about it - they were free to consecrate or not, but they chose to lie and pretend to consecrate their all - that was the problem.

Yes, they chose to lie about it and God struck them both dead for it. That’s no different than God killing people in OT times for committing certain sins. 

This idea that God somehow changed from the OT to the NT is not true. It’s a common misunderstanding caused by people not reading the scriptures carefully enough and only focusing on certain aspects of the OT and NT. 

The D&C also warns of very severe judgements of God coming upon the wicked and that was nearly 2,000 years after the NT.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 

[Ruben]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Presumably you are asking why we don't see the level of violence you perceive in the OT? Erm, haven't you read the prophecies about what will happen on earth in the years leading up to the Second Coming.  Do you think that will be better than the OT violence?  Also, try to remember that the scriptural accounts are very compressed.  If we compacted all the violence since the birth of Christ into as short a summary as the OT, it would look awfully violent, too.

 

Actually, it was for lying about it - they were free to consecrate or not, but they chose to lie and pretend to consecrate their all - that was the problem.

...I like to think that God is our heavenly father who loves us and wants to forgive us for our mistakes, as I do with my children.
Don't make me live in fear of being punished by a terrible and vengeful God.🤔

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, Ruben said:

...I like to think that God is our heavenly father who loves us and wants to forgive us for our mistakes, as I do with my children.
Don't make me live in fear of being punished by a terrible and vengeful God.🤔

This is just my own speculation of course but I think part of our condition as fallen humans is being far more harsh and unforgiving than God is  

[Maverick]

2 minutes ago, Ruben said:

...I like to think that God is our heavenly father who loves us and wants to forgive us for our mistakes, as I do with my children.
Don't make me live in fear of being punished by a terrible and vengeful God.🤔

God is both. The scriptures are quite clear on this. 

Imagine for a moment that one of your children did something truly horrible to another person, like rape or murder. Even though you love all of your children, you wouldn’t let your child’s heinous crime go unpunished would you? 

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, Maverick said:

. Even though you love all of your children, you wouldn’t let your child’s heinous crime go unpunished would you? 

Unpunished? No. But I do vaguely remember hearing an interview with a school shooter’s dad who said “He‘s still my son, I can’t stop loving him.” I think God’s love for us far exceeds our human understanding of love. 

[Maverick]

2 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Unpunished? No. But I do vaguely remember hearing an interview with a school shooter’s dad who said “He‘s still my son, I can’t stop loving him.” I think God’s love for us far exceeds our human understanding of love. 

It would be unjust for a father not to have their child who committed a heinous crime punished. Doesn’t mean they stop loving them. 

I never said that God stopped loving the individual he punishes. But God is just and mercy cannot rob justice. 

[zil2]

15 minutes ago, Ruben said:

...I like to think that God is our heavenly father who loves us and wants to forgive us for our mistakes, as I do with my children.
Don't make me live in fear of being punished by a terrible and vengeful God.🤔

If you are striving to keep your covenants, why would you fear?  God promises to bless and protect those who love and serve Him. It's those who are ripe in iniquity the Lord destroys.

Edited December 1, 2024 by zil2

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, Maverick said:

It would be unjust for a father not to have their child who committed a heinous crime punished. Doesn’t mean they stop loving them. 

I never said that God stopped loving the individual he punishes. But God is just and mercy cannot rob justice. 

Understand. 

[pam]

On 11/26/2024 at 10:22 AM, Ruben said:

Members generally avoid asking certain questions in church for fear of being misinterpreted and labeled as protesters, so many doctrines are taboo, they are not talked about for fear of offending someone and they remain unresolved, sometimes causing more damage in silence than what they would have done by discussing it. 

Well hopefully, our forum members will remember to be kind in their responses. We have a couple that are not always the most kind. 

[LDSGator]

6 minutes ago, pam said:

Well hopefully, our forum members will remember to be kind in their responses. We have a couple that are not always the most kind. 

It’s even harder for converts, which I think @Ruben is. Correct me if I’m please. 
 

and it’s only because converts don’t know what questions/books are taboo, emotionally loaded, etc.  

[LDSGator]

26 minutes ago, zil2 said:

If you are striving to keep your covenants, why would you fear? 

To be fair to @Ruben, I can see why he’s still anxious. Even people who keep their covenants still struggle with pride, lust, envy…all things God warns us about. 

Again though, I try my hardest to remember the mercy of Christ. He’s the only one in history who turned the other cheek, forgave those who murdered Him, and asked Peter to put the sword down.  

[LDSGator]

I tend to think that God treats us the way Jill treated Puzzle in the end of Narnia.
 

(spoilers ahead)

Puzzle wore a lion costume imitating Aslan, but Puzzle was manipulated into it. The final King of Narnia wants to execute Puzzle, but Jill correctly tells everyone to leave him alone. She doesn’t say she is right, she tells the others to have mercy. 
 

At the end of the day, Aslan allows Puzzle to enter Aslan’s country.  So does Tirian. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by LDSGator

[laronius]

1 hour ago, Ruben said:

...I like to think that God is our heavenly father who loves us and wants to forgive us for our mistakes, as I do with my children.
Don't make me live in fear of being punished by a terrible and vengeful God.🤔

You might be underestimating how utterly bad the people are that God destroys. And even then He does it for their own good. Wrath and firey indignation are helpful at times in trying to scare people straight, but it's always love that motivated God.

Having said that, there is such a thing as righteous fear that can be healthy but it's more a fear of letting God down than Him destroying us.

[Vort]

5 hours ago, Ruben said:

We want to compare a Jesus who verbally rages against the Pharisees or a Jesus who expels merchants from the temple with a Jehovah who carries out a "genocide" with a flood.

This wording is nonsense. God gives life and God takes life away. Do you call God a "murderer" when an infant dies? When a coastal town is swept away in a flood? When an earthquake kills thousands? Life is God's to give and to take as He sees fit. He cannot "murder". He cannot be "genocidal". This is akin to complaining that God "raped" Mary, since she had His Child. (A claim which I have heard forwarded in all seriousness.)

Such meaningless statements make good-faith conversation impossible.

Edited December 1, 2024 by Vort

[Vort]

5 hours ago, Maverick said:

Who killed that couple in the book of Acts for lying about holding back some of their property and not consecrating all of it? 

Ananias and Sapphira were killed, not because they lied or didn't consecrate, but because they broke their covenants. Death, spiritual and (if unrepented of) eternal, and in their case physical, is the inevitable result of covenant-breaking.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Ruben said:

...I like to think that God is our heavenly father who loves us and wants to forgive us for our mistakes, as I do with my children.
Don't make me live in fear of being punished by a terrible and vengeful God.🤔

You may choose to view it however you wish. The facts do not change. And the facts are that God will forgive all who sincerely repent and grant them place in His kingdom, and will cut off everyone else. That's not revenge; that's the nature of reality—or, if you prefer, eternal law.

Edited December 1, 2024 by Vort

[Vort]

3 hours ago, pam said:

We have a couple that are not always the most kind.

Jerks. I hate people like that.

[Maverick]

7 hours ago, Vort said:

Ananias and Sapphira were killed, not because they lied or didn't consecrate, but because they broke their covenants. Death, spiritual and (if unrepented of) eternal, and in their case physical, is the inevitable result of covenant-breaking.

The point is that God struck them dead for what they did in similar way that God killed people for their wickedness in OT times.