Temple & Book of Abraham

[zil2]

Someone somewhere referenced the video I'll put below.  It talks about the Book of Abraham and temple ordinances (specifically in ancient Egypt).  How long must we wait for people to "catch up" with the gospel before we can learn like this in Sunday School?  I don't necessarily mean the historic, Egyptian temple rites, but finding the temple rites in scripture!  Our manuals are all watered down to the weakest of the saints - the ones who show up at Church and do little more as far as I can tell.  Every time someone points me to something like this, I lament that it wasn't being taught in Church 10 years earlier...   Thankfully, I've been coming across more and more things like this online - faithful things, not whacked out extreme stretches to force some pet idea into the gospel.  It's very frustrating to me.  You fortunate people can watch them with spouse and old-enough children and have discussions with them.  Klaw and Smoke just look at me and have nothing helpful to add...  This is why I wish Church were still 3 hours - or better, 4!  (Not that it would matter - see my first lament.)

Be grateful for your blessings.

Also, watch this video:

 

[mirkwood]

I've watched other videos like this.  Good stuff.

[classylady]

I just watched the video.  Thanks for sharing.  

When I read the scriptures I try to have the spirit with me, and I can often see the temple references. But, I wonder how much I miss? For me, I see the benefit in reading them over and over again, (same as attending the temple over and over), I learn something new each time.

[HaggisShuu]

I've adopted the attitude to fully lean into the idea of a home centred, church supported faith. Congregations are full of lazy saints, I go to church for sacrament and thats it. Lessons blow in my ward, and most people refuse callings, a 3 hour church would be awful.

I will follow the come follow me reading schedule but go about my own way of studying it as the manuals are horrible. They rephrase the same question a million times and the obvious answers are all usually vague platitudes, the kids section is probably good if you have young children though. 

On your comment on the manuals, the institute scripture manuals I find are quite good. No repeated questions, or platitudes. Just clear explanation of passages and doctrine. I remember looking through Isaiah and connections were being made about some of his prophecies have been fulfilled by modern transport such as trains. Far better than the come follow me manuals. 

Edited February 8 by HaggisShuu

[zil2]

4 hours ago, classylady said:

I just watched the video.  Thanks for sharing.

You're most welcome!

4 hours ago, classylady said:

When I read the scriptures I try to have the spirit with me, and I can often see the temple references. But, I wonder how much I miss? For me, I see the benefit in reading them over and over again, (same as attending the temple over and over), I learn something new each time.

Amen, but why can't the manuals point out temple references?  Why do we never discuss them in class and share our own recognitions?  "Well, there are unendowed members in the class."  Yeah, well, they're on the internet, too, so get over it!  Intrigue them.  Leave them wanting to understand.  Bring back the Gospel Essentials class for newbies and lift Gospel Doctrine to the next level.  Or make a new Gospel Doctrine 201 class and split the members.  Whatever.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

I've adopted the attitude to fully lean into the idea of a home centred, church supported faith. Congregations are full of lazy saints, I go to church for sacrament and thats it. Lessons blow in my ward, and most people refuse callings, a 3 hour church would be awful.

Lessons in my ward are filled with the Spirit, but they mostly remain at the unendowed level, IMO.  And there's no shortage of people who have no one to talk to at home.  And for whatever reason, in my experience, no one has the time or interest to dive deep into the gospel outside of Church meetings.  Perhaps they're remembering the days when home / personal study groups were strongly discouraged.  Or maybe they're just busy because they're trying to have everything the Church offers and everything the world offers, so there's no time for more study.  I don't know.

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

On your comment on the manuals, the institute scripture manuals I find are quite good. No repeated questions, or platitudes. Just clear explanation of passages and doctrine. I remember looking through Isaiah and connections were being made about some of his prophecies have been fulfilled by modern transport such as trains. Far better than the come follow me manuals. 

Manuals only take you so far.  And before suggesting I discuss such things online - been there, tried that. Even this forum is more interested in extended discussion sports and politics than in joining together to dive into the same gospel topic, so that gospel discussions here also tend to stay on the surface.

Like I said, be thankful for your blessings.

[laronius]

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

 

I will follow the come follow me schedule but the manuals are horrible. They rephrase the same question a million times and the obvious answers are all usually vague platitudes. 

 

Here's what it says in beginning of the Come Follow Me manual:

"Use this resource in any way that is helpful to you."

To me it is helpful to know what we are studying that week and that is pretty much it. These manuals are written to be used by anyone in the Church, whether it be a 10 year old or a 75 year old lifetime member temple sealer. I used to feel bad that I rarely cracked open the manual when I was Sunday School president. But I knew that having a good scripture study was the main goal, not reading everything in the manual. Having said that, it is good from time to time to reassess our understanding of basic doctrines and how we would respond to basic gospel questions. Small misunderstandings of the plain and simple truths grow larger as we seek deeper truths.

[laronius]

12 hours ago, zil2 said:

Every time someone points me to something like this, I lament that it wasn't being taught in Church 10 years earlier...  

This is why I wish Church were still 3 hours - or better, 4!

I like these types of things. I was fortunate enough once upon a time to take an adult institute class taught by Bruce Porter. It was fascinating to say the least. 

I have wondered about 2 hour church. I know it's intended purpose but I think the brethren had to have known that reducing our time spent in church would NOT increase the time that many if not most saints spent studying on their own. My only conclusion was that that they are trying to prepare us for what's coming.

Things of the temple are best understood by personal revelation. Bro Porter made the statement that people like Egyptologists can tell us what something says but not necessarily what it means. But while someone who has the gospel like Bro Porter can shed light on it's meaning in light of revealed truths I think there is still much that can only be communicated directly from the Spirit.

[zil2]

I'm sorry I ever posted.  Going away for a while.

[HaggisShuu]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

Here's what it says in beginning of the Come Follow Me manual:

"Use this resource in any way that is helpful to you."

To me it is helpful to know what we are studying that week and that is pretty much it. These manuals are written to be used by anyone in the Church, whether it be a 10 year old or a 75 year old lifetime member temple sealer. I used to feel bad that I rarely cracked open the manual when I was Sunday School president. But I knew that having a good scripture study was the main goal, not reading everything in the manual. Having said that, it is good from time to time to reassess our understanding of basic doctrines and how we would respond to basic gospel questions. Small misunderstandings of the plain and simple truths grow larger as we seek deeper truths.

Bit cranky as the newborn kept me up last night. What I said in my comment was way more harsh than necessary. 
 

I'm in the same boat as you. I will read what we are supposed to read for the week and do my own study. I think using the manual in conjunction with the litany of other study aids that can be found in a quad combination alone will always lead to meaningful experiences with the scriptures. 

Edited February 8 by HaggisShuu

[HaggisShuu]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Perhaps they're remembering the days when home / personal study groups were strongly discouraged.  

I would adore a small study group outside of the meetinghouse where I live. I just don't really get on with anybody enough to approach somebody with the idea, and most people in my family don't spend much time at all studying, beyond preparing the occasional lesson.

[LDSGator]

55 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

Bit cranky as the newborn kept me up last night. What I said in my comment was way more harsh than necessary.

Hope you get some rest my friend. And don’t worry about it. We’ve all had off days before 

[Traveler]

Thank you @zil2 :  In another thread I presented the scripture notion of line upon line upon and precept upon precept upon precept.  Initially we read this in Isaiah.  Some think that there are other ways to “translate” this, but we are given the same translation in the Book of Mormon and through several prophets and apostles in conference talks.

Abraham chapter 3 is given in ancient Egyptian "scientific" understanding.  We have a parallel to this in D&C86 that is given in Newtonian level of scientific understanding.   Through the restoration we are given multiple witnesses – not just in scripture but in law, ordinance and covenants (mostly in the temple).  The ancient understanding of someone that sought the law, ordinance and covenants of G-d (temple worship) were described as the “Righteous”.   Thos that transgressed the law, changed the ordinances and broke the covenants were called the “Wicked”.  The term “stiff nick” in the Book of Mormon is a direct reference to accepting covenants in the temple.

I believe that the Book of Mormon is the great key to understanding.  In 3Nephi Jesus tells us that he, the Christ “suffered” from the beginning.  I am not sure we interpret the “suffering of Christ” correctly.  I think that from the very “beginning” Jesus “atoned” or "suffered" for our fall and our sins.  Even before the fall and our commission of sins.  All of which enabled the “Plan of Salvation” in order for us to partake of G-d’s mercy to the fulfilling of justice.  That without Christ there is neither mercy nor divine justice.

There is one final element to the law, ordinance and covenant that completes the mercy and justice of G-d.  That final element is our investment, which is called repentance.  Part of our repentance is to see things in a new “light” such that we abhor sin "darkness" and desire to be one with G-d (and his Son Jesus Christ).

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

I had always wondered about the "wrestling" thing.  But I figured it had to do with the temple because he was given another name.

[mordorbund]

On 2/8/2025 at 8:54 AM, zil2 said:

  "Well, there are unendowed members in the class."  Yeah, well, they're on the internet, too, so get over it!  Intrigue them.  Leave them wanting to understand.

Not too long ago, there were two separate General Conference talks emphasizing proper wearing of the garment. In elders quorum this gave us two separate lessons covering this topic. The instructor started with this quote from the Handbook of Instruction:

Quote

Temple covenants and ordinances are sacred. The symbols associated with temple covenants should not be discussed outside the temple. Nor should we discuss the holy information we covenant in the temple not to reveal. However, we may discuss the basic purposes and doctrine of temple covenants and ordinances and the spiritual feelings we have in the temple.

He then reminded us that we talk about sacred things every quorum meeting and reiterated we can talk about the sacred temple ordinances so long as we don’t reveal those things which we have covenanted not to. Both discussions that followed were very insightful in my mind.

[mirkwood]

On 2/8/2025 at 8:38 AM, zil2 said:

I'm sorry I ever posted.  Going away for a while.

 

Get back in here, there is nothing wrong with your post.

[Carborendum]

I took a closer look at Jacob's wrestling/embracing the angel.  Bruce Porter mentioned that the word "wrestled" should really mean "embraced."  I don't know if the younger generation really appreciate this.

Genesis 32 (KJV) - And Jacob was left alone;

It seems that the entire verse is lacking proper background.  Thus it was a poor translation.

The dislocating of the hip is completely wrong.

• The thigh (not hip) is said to be "out of joint".  How is a thigh out of joint?  That's why people say "hip".  But that would be wrong.
• The "hollow" is supposed to be "a bent part".  That would be the knee.  And the "hollow" of the man's thigh touched the "hollow" of Jacob's thigh.

For those old enough to recognize the significance of this... Wow!!!

This is why it is important to learn the original languages (or at least find a way to translate).