Crackhead conspiracy theory No#231 Element, Intelligence and Agency.

[HaggisShuu]

Forgive the silly title, I feel like I can't possibly explain my thoughts here without sounding like a tinfoil hat man. 

Most of these ideas were I believe put forward by Scholar Cleon Skousen (warning: not a prophet, just very smart man who shared his own insights.) who offered them in the context of why the atonement was necessary. Evidently, I have latched onto some of these ideas and ran with them. Just trying to see if I am in need of a reality check as when I explained this concept to this Mrs. She looked at me like I was insane. 

Behold D&C 93:

Quote

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

Key takeaways for the purpose of this post:

- Intelligences existed in the beginning with God.

- Intelligence (described as light/truth) is independent, and has the capacity to act freely.
- Elements, likely meaning bodies or physical matter are also eternal, and inseparable from intelligence. 
 

Abraham 3:22

Quote

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

This seems to imply an order and hierarchy made of the various intelligences. 
 

All above board so far, let us descend into a little bit silliness. 
 

A quote from Brigham Young

Quote

“There is life in all matter, throughout the vast extent of all the eternities; it is in the rock, the sand, the dust, in water, air, the gases, and, in short, in every description and organization of matter; there is no such thing as dead matter. It is organized spirit and all matter is capable of spiritual organization.”

Given the scriptural quotes, it would seem when God was organising the universe, he organised the intelligences into a hierarchy, some of which were joined to bodies and made mortal, and some of which was joined to the elements around us. 
So if physical matter, has intelligence, according to D&C it also has agency. Which is why whenever Christ performed a miracle, he just spoke, and the world around him obeyed. 
 

This next part, is probably something which has already been remarked upon somewhere, I'm just too lazy to look for it. 
If physical matter, has agency, surely it can also choose to obey satan for example. 
Christ can cure blindness, Satan can cause it. A priesthood blessing can improve an illness, an evil spirit can worsen it.

Because of this religious pseudo-scientific explanation, the problem of evil is not something which concerns me in the slightest. Literally everything bad can be blamed on Satan, not a design flaw in Gods creation. 
 

I've likely made some huge leaps in logic here, so take it or leave it. I just found it to be an interesting thought. 

[zil2]

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

- Intelligences existed in the beginning with God.

IMO, this is unwarranted from the quoted D&C bit.  It does not say that man is or was an "intelligence".  We get that from Abraham, but not from the cited D&C passage.  IMO, the idea of intelligence > spirit > mortal is so embedded into our culture that we read it into (nearly?) every instance of the word "intelligence".  I'm not convinced either way - we don't have enough, IMO, to speak with certainty.

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

when God was organising the universe, he organised the intelligences into a hierarchy

I'm not so sure they weren't just naturally in a hierarchy:

Quote

Abraham 3:16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

Moses 3:5 says all things were created spiritually before naturally.  It doesn't say the spiritual things were created from intelligence(s).

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

Which is why whenever Christ performed a miracle, he just spoke, and the world around him obeyed. 

Observe sound rearranging matter:

Now, I'm not saying this was how God organized the universe, but I'm not saying it isn't either.

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

If physical matter, has agency

I'm not convinced either way.  First, I don't think agency is the same as free will.  Agency is a responsibility given by God (through covenant, I think).  Free will is just the natural consequence of having capacity and options.  Remember 2 Nephi 2 talks about "things to act and things to be acted upon", suggesting that not everything has sufficient capacity to act or use agency...

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

...Satan can...

Folks around here don't seem to think Satan can do much of anything.

FWIW.

[mikbone]

Cleon Skousen actually gives credit of these ideas to the Apostle John A Widtsoe.

This single scripture is a major key to the theory.

2 Ne 2:14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

Also good to compare to Helaman 12: 6-17

Edited March 29 by mikbone

[HaggisShuu]

7 hours ago, zil2 said:

IMO, this is unwarranted from the quoted D&C bit.  It does not say that man is or was an "intelligence".  We get that from Abraham, but not from the cited D&C passage.  IMO, the idea of intelligence > spirit > mortal is so embedded into our culture that we read it into (nearly?) every instance of the word "intelligence".  I'm not convinced either way - we don't have enough, IMO, to speak with certainty.

I'm not so sure they weren't just naturally in a hierarchy:

Moses 3:5 says all things were created spiritually before naturally.  It doesn't say the spiritual things were created from intelligence(s).

Observe sound rearranging matter:

Now, I'm not saying this was how God organized the universe, but I'm not saying it isn't either.

I'm not convinced either way.  First, I don't think agency is the same as free will.  Agency is a responsibility given by God (through covenant, I think).  Free will is just the natural consequence of having capacity and options.  Remember 2 Nephi 2 talks about "things to act and things to be acted upon", suggesting that not everything has sufficient capacity to act or use agency...

Folks around here don't seem to think Satan can do much of anything.

FWIW.

That video is a very cool demonstration that I was previously unaware of. I now have a picture in my head of Jesus performing his miracles through high pitch Mongolian throat singing. 
 

Perhaps my wording was unclear, but I agree with you that they were likely in a natural hierarchy. The assumption being that the highest, you get Gods, Saviours and prophets, slightly lower you get other mortals, a lower still animals, and the lowest inanimate matter. To have God organise the intelligences would mean he chooses what becomes a human and what becomes a grain of sand. Rather unfair.
Obviously this isn't given officially anywhere other than in Brigham Young's own musings, but if he believed all matter has intelligence then it feels safe to assume the above. 
 

Is there some other meaning that D&C 93 could be mentioning you know? I would be interested in learning the actual context here. 
 

I feel like Moses 3:5 doesn't really contradict any of this. The spirit world existed before earth. But as we don't believe in Ex Nihilo, the matter to create earth was always there. 
 

I agree with you that 2 Nephi 2 does appear to be the kicker for this theory. 

The reason I feel like a tin foil hat man, is because this theory is not officially lined out anywhere in scripture. It's an act of looking at related passages and prophetic quotes and trying to draw a conclusion from it all. Got it all up on my caulk board with drawing pins and red string. 

[HaggisShuu]

6 hours ago, mikbone said:

Cleon Skousen actually gives credit of these ideas to the Apostle John A Widtsoe.

This single scripture is a major key to the theory.

2 Ne 2:14 14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

Also good to compare to Helaman 12: 6-17

I will look into John A Widstoe. Thank you. 

[HaggisShuu]

7 hours ago, zil2 said:

Folks around here don't seem to think Satan can do much of anything.

FWIW.

I had to google what FWIW was lol. 
 

I don't really agree with this. I may be remembering incorrectly it's been a while since I last went to the temple, but in the endowment ceremony, after receiving a rebuke from Heavenly Father, Satan takes it upon himself to try and rule the earth, and Adam and Eve are protected only through covenant. Arguably Satan has a great deal of power over the earth and its inhabitants, even church members. 
 

So if Satan can possess Humans and Swine as seen in the bible, is it a leap to conclude he could possess objects, if according to Brigham Young - objects have intelligence. (I know I am likely at risk of sounding to be agreeing with the occult here.) 

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

I will look into John A Widstoe. Thank you. 

 

Skousen's talk.  Around 20 minutes he mentions the inspiration of his mission president, John A. Widsoe.

When you listen to general conference, look for the 2 Ne 2: 14 quote.  It will be there a couple of times, always is. 

[zil2]

6 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

I now have a picture in my head of Jesus performing his miracles through high pitch Mongolian throat singing. 

I think He has better ways, but clearly sound can impact physical matter in more ways that the average soul usually imagines.

6 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

To have God organise the intelligences would mean he chooses what becomes a human and what becomes a grain of sand. Rather unfair.

I'm not convinced of either sentence. God cannot be unjust.  Unfair?  Guess it depends what that means.  I don't think God restricts anything.  I think He helps everything be and become the very best it is willing to become.

6 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

Obviously this isn't given officially anywhere other than in Brigham Young's own musings, but if he believed all matter has intelligence then it feels safe to assume the above. 

Well, he may be the exception.  Or what we mean by "intelligence" and what Brigham Young meant and what Joseph Smith meant and what God meant may all be different enough not to equate.

6 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

I feel like Moses 3:5 doesn't really contradict any of this.

I didn't mean to suggest it did, only that we have a better source than Brigham Young that all things were created spiritually before being created naturally / physically.

6 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

I agree with you that 2 Nephi 2 does appear to be the kicker for this theory. 

The reason I feel like a tin foil hat man, is because this theory is not officially lined out anywhere in scripture. It's an act of looking at related passages and prophetic quotes and trying to draw a conclusion from it all.

I'm not sure 2 Nephi 2's dichotomy is as fixed as it seems - for example, a rock pretty clearly seems like a thing to be acted upon.  But then, so does water, and yet water can act upon the rock - so to speak.  Is an animal a thing to act or a thing to be acted upon?  How about a plant?  (Science are learning a lot about trees that might surprise you - they communicate through fungal networks and mother trees help baby trees - rather than hogging all the sunlight and starving the poor baby out.  I'm anthropomorphizing here, but that's because I don't have the source and this was how my imagination ran with it - I write stories that include sentient mushrooms, a sphinx that looks a lot like a baby lion with wings, and a talking snek, after all.)  Anywho, I think you get the point.  Eventually we will understand (perhaps remember).  In the meantime, fun though such diversions are, probably best not to turn them into rabbit holes.

6 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

Got it all up on my caulk board with drawing pins and red string. 

Love it!  I knew an elderly couple who had turned a set of sliding closet doors into a white board and had some pretty amazing stuff diagrammed up there.  If I were rich, I'd have all my walls sanded smooth and painted with dry-erase paint - or just have sheets of acrylic screwed to all the walls (perhaps alternating with carpeting for the cats...).

7 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

I don't really agree with this.

I don't either. Was just giving you a heads up.

[zil2]

11 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

Is there some other meaning that D&C 93 could be mentioning you know? I would be interested in learning the actual context here. 

Well, while many sections of the D&C have links in the "Related Content" pane for "Revelations in Context", this one only has it indirectly (see here), so apparently we don't know much about what led to receiving D&C 93.  But, what if the paragraphination is wrong (or misleading)?  Verses 29-35, re-paragraphinated:

Quote

Man was also in the beginning with God.

Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

1. Man was with God in the beginning, also ("also" because the preceding verses talked about how Christ was with God in the beginning).

2. There is a thing called [truth].  This thing has a light and we call this "light of truth" [intelligence].  [Intelligence] wasn't made and can't be made.

3. [Truth] is independent within the sphere in which God placed it.  [Truth] can act.

4. [Intelligence, the light of truth] is also independent (really? independent from [truth]?) and free to act for itself within the sphere in which God has place it.

5. Were [truth] and [intelligence] not free to act within their spheres, there would be no existence.  (Hmm.)

6. Men have agency because of these things.

7. Men are condemned when they refuse to receive the light (presumably [intelligence, the light of truth]).  (This doesn't sound like "intelligence" === "the pre-spirit form of man" - how can you refuse to receive what you originally were?)

8. Man is spirit. (No qualifiers.  No time mentioned.  Perhaps we are and always have been spirits and our "spirit birth" was by ordinance and covenant with God so that we could progress.  I'm not entirely comfortable with this idea, but I'm not entirely uncomfortable with it either.  Just yesterday, another member (on X) explained that it was B. H. Roberts who formulated the intelligence > spirit > mortal paradigm that we now embrace, and asserted that he did it to reconcile Brigham Young's insistence that our spirits are conceived and born just as mortals are conceived and born.  I haven't had time to research this to learn where, nor to learn more about what Joseph Smith actually taught, such as this simple sentence right here.

In response to your OP, I went looking through the Scripture Citation Index for Abraham 3:22 and D&C 93:29, and the overwhelming perception, when "intelligences" were referenced (as opposed to the council in heaven) was that "intelligence" is synonymous with "spirit" in that verse.  And actually, only one reference from then-Elder Nelson hinted otherwise.  I think it best to keep one's beliefs flexible in this regard.)

9. Spirit and element can be combined and when "inseparably connected" (clearly suggests the resurrection), receive a fulness of joy.

10. All elements (matter?) are the tabernacle (aka temple) of God, including man.  (Interesting.  We believe God to be an exalted man, and yet all the elements everywhere, presumably, are His tabernacle.  Hmm.)

11. Defiled temples (aka tabernacles) will be destroyed.

Those seem to be the primary points from that set of verses.  Now let's backtrack to verses 21-28.

Quote

And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.

Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth; And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth; And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

12. Christ was in the beginning with the Father and is the "Firstborn".

13. Those begotten through Christ are partakers of "the glory of the same" - wait, what?  The same what?  All I can figure is that they are partakers of "the glory of the Firstborn" - hence, "and are the church of the Firstborn".  So, were our spirits "begotten through Christ"?  Or is this what we're here to do - get begotten through Christ, become His sons and daughters by covenant?  (The second seems more consistent with my understanding, but what do I know?)  (One can see where all the scriptures which talk about us becoming sons (and daughters) of Christ can suggest that becoming the children of God was also a covenant process...)

14. Prequel to the fact that we also were in the beginning with the Father (or does "Ye" refer to someone specific? "You" was used previously... ).  The semi-colon confuses me in this bit: "that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth" - what does that refer to?  Is it our spirits, if so, why capitalized?  Is it God?  Are we "the Spirit of truth"?  This clause leaves me nothing but puzzled, always has.

15. Ah, here we have a definition of [truth]: things as they were, are, and will be.

16. Anything other than [truth] is "the spirit of [Lucifer]"

17. The "Spirit of truth" that confuses me in item #14 is of God.  Jesus Christ is the "Spirit of truth".  Now that phrase mentioned in 14 confuses me more, unless perhaps it's referring to God - if Christ is the "Spirit of truth" then I expect God is, too....  It's like a subject, object, or verb is missing from that paragraph!

18 John bore record that Christ received a fulness of all truth by keeping the commandments.

19. If you keep the commandments, you will receive [truth: knowledge of things as they were, are, and will be] and [light] (is this the light of truth, aka intelligence, or another light?), until you are glorified (see #13) in [truth] and know all things.

 

My conclusion is as follows:

1) Don't get addicted to the "intelligence > spirit > mortal" paradigm.  It might be correct, but it might not be.

2) Don't assume every instance of "intelligence" means the same thing, let alone "the pre-spirit form of mankind".

3) Mortal languages cannot correctly communicate many of the things found in the D&C, such as these from section 93.  Therefore, one must study, reason, and then ask God to clarify where you understand correctly and where you are wrong. One must repeat this ad infinitum until one has received a fulness of all truth.  It might take a few thousand years...

4) Keeping the commandments will speed item #3.  (Failure to keep them will drastically hinder #3.)

FWIW.

Edited Saturday at 07:57 PM by zil2

[CV75]

On 3/28/2025 at 7:33 PM, HaggisShuu said:

Forgive the silly title, I feel like I can't possibly explain my thoughts here without sounding like a tinfoil hat man. 

Most of these ideas were I believe put forward by Scholar Cleon Skousen (warning: not a prophet, just very smart man who shared his own insights.) who offered them in the context of why the atonement was necessary. Evidently, I have latched onto some of these ideas and ran with them. Just trying to see if I am in need of a reality check as when I explained this concept to this Mrs. She looked at me like I was insane. 

Behold D&C 93:

Key takeaways for the purpose of this post:

- Intelligences existed in the beginning with God.

- Intelligence (described as light/truth) is independent, and has the capacity to act freely.
- Elements, likely meaning bodies or physical matter are also eternal, and inseparable from intelligence. 
 

Abraham 3:22

This seems to imply an order and hierarchy made of the various intelligences. 
 

All above board so far, let us descend into a little bit silliness. 
 

A quote from Brigham Young

Given the scriptural quotes, it would seem when God was organising the universe, he organised the intelligences into a hierarchy, some of which were joined to bodies and made mortal, and some of which was joined to the elements around us. 
So if physical matter, has intelligence, according to D&C it also has agency. Which is why whenever Christ performed a miracle, he just spoke, and the world around him obeyed. 
 

This next part, is probably something which has already been remarked upon somewhere, I'm just too lazy to look for it. 
If physical matter, has agency, surely it can also choose to obey satan for example. 
Christ can cure blindness, Satan can cause it. A priesthood blessing can improve an illness, an evil spirit can worsen it.

Because of this religious pseudo-scientific explanation, the problem of evil is not something which concerns me in the slightest. Literally everything bad can be blamed on Satan, not a design flaw in Gods creation. 
 

I've likely made some huge leaps in logic here, so take it or leave it. I just found it to be an interesting thought. 

Some points (mostly based on opinion) to add or consider in your analysis:

- Intelligence (described as light/truth) is independent [in that sphere in which God has placed it – how independent is that?], and has the capacity to act freely [in that sphere in which God has placed i].

- Elements, likely meaning bodies or physical matter are also eternal, and inseparable from intelligence. [If spirit and element can be inseparably connected (eternally), they can also be separably connected (temporary): that is why we need a Redeemer]. [Since everything is matter, mater is inherently inseparable, but some matter operates in different spheres than others hence the separable/inseparable nature of different kinds of matter].

RE: Vere 22: There were also many of the less noble and great in the same place: where is the hierarchy? Tis seems more a reflection of varying spheres of operation where God places us where we are prepared to function.

Brigham Young: The life in all things is the light of Christ and everything operates in its own sphere, and sometimes acted upon also, and some things are solely acted upon. The light of Christ in a speck of dust will not contradict the light of Christ ordering it to attach itself elsewhere.

Satan can warp or filter the light of Christ to the point of appearing as an angel of light, and to heal, but no further than the sphere in which God has placed him to act. We do the same thing when we apply the laws of nature, all governed by the light of Christ, for evil purposes. Erstwhile ostensible saints can give that which is holy to the dogs.

There really is no problem of evil; it is the mind of the beholder that does not understand the Redeemer.

[HaggisShuu]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

There really is no problem of evil; it is the mind of the beholder that does not understand the Redeemer.

I agree. I think the rather tired out "Why do bad things happen to good people?" is a question that can can be broken down 3 sub questions.

1. Why are bad people allowed to sin against others? (Why did Jeff down the road kill my dog)

2. Why do bad things, with no human elements happen to Good people? (Why was I born blind?)

3. Why does God sometimes cause bad things to happen to Good people? (Various boogaloos in the old testament) 

To an investigator or non-member each gets progressively harder to give a satisfactory answer I find.

Obviously the real answer to all 3 can be found in Isaiah 55:

Quote

8 ¶ For my thoughts are not yourthoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

But I find quoting scripture, is a really effective way to kill a conversation, if the person you are discussing with, does not have a firm belief in scripture. 

Question 1 can be answered with Agency. 
The theory presented in my OP appeals to me because I feel like it effectively answers question 2. I'm open to being wrong, and if I find that out through revelation and study, I will accept that, but for now it serves its purpose and I will take into account what has been offered in this thread and see if it still holds up when I get the time to revisit it. 

I'm still figuring out question 3 though. 

Edited Sunday at 08:38 AM by HaggisShuu

[HaggisShuu]

11 hours ago, CV75 said:

Satan can warp or filter the light of Christ to the point of appearing as an angel of light, and to heal, but no further than the sphere in which God has placed him to act. We do the same thing when we apply the laws of nature, all governed by the light of Christ, for evil purposes. Erstwhile ostensible saints can give that which is holy to the dogs.

Something else to consider, when in Job, it appears to be Satan who afflicts Job with Boils, kills his family, starves his herd etc. 

I know there is split opinion on whether or not what is recorded in Job is real, or purely allegorical. But if you are in the first camp, there certainly seems to be some precedent for Satan causing illness. For example. 

[CV75]

6 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

I agree. I think the rather tired out "Why do bad things happen to good people?" is a question that can can be broken down 3 sub questions.

1. Why are bad people allowed to sin against others? (Why did Jeff down the road kill my dog)

2. Why do bad things, with no human elements happen to Good people? (Why was I born blind?)

3. Why does God sometimes cause bad things to happen to Good people? (Various boogaloos in the old testament) 

To an investigator or non-member each gets progressively harder to give a satisfactory answer I find.

Obviously the real answer to all 3 can be found in Isaiah 55:

But I find quoting scripture, is a really effective way to kill a conversation, if the person you are discussing with, does not have a firm belief in scripture. 

Question 1 can be answered with Agency. 
The theory presented in my OP appeals to me because I feel like it effectively answers question 2. I'm open to being wrong, and if I find that out through revelation and study, I will accept that, but for now it serves its purpose and I will take into account what has been offered in this thread and see if it still holds up when I get the time to revisit it. 

I'm still figuring out question 3 though. 

3. Why does God sometimes cause bad things to happen to Good people? (Various boogaloos in the old testament)

I think the answer to this is Agency also, which includes the paradigms and bias through which view the world and the scriptures. I think God teaches us within the spheres in which our agency has prepared us to operated, and this sometimes involves unpleasant experiences as a prompt for exercising and this strengthening trust in Him.

[Traveler]

I have pondered how to join the conversation.  We can get different views and understanding of things, like intelligence, by considering from a standpoint of macro or micro thinking.  We get a similar result in physics from Newtonian or quantum physics.  

Even if we are just considering who and what we are we think of our body and what is encompassed within it as that which defines us.  But as we look at our physical entity at the micro level, we find parts of us constantly being reborn at a cellular level.  Over a 7-year period there is a complete turnover of our living cells.  And all these living cells evolve as they are being turned over.  So, after 7 years are we really the same being?

We also learn that here are living cells within us are of different DNA.  It could be said that they are different creatures with whom we have formed a symbiotic relationship, and as it turns out there are more of those cells than there are of the cells that carry our unique DNA.  Now there is another question, are we really a unique singular individual entity?

I believe we have the same macro micro problem with our intelligence.  Our immune system is both a strange and a wonderful intelligence that seems to operate completely without our awareness.  We, as unique individuals, have intelligence beyond our cognizance and awareness.

Perhaps the best definition of intelligence we are given through science.  There are two parts.  First the ability to learn and second is the power to change the outcome.  One way to characterize learning and changing the outcome is in the scientific notion of evolution, especially the evolution of life and intelligent life.  Having worked with artificial intelligence during my lifetime contributions – it appears to me that distributed intelligence working as one is the most powerful.  We see this in what we call ecosystems of many complex parts working together creating a common good for all.

Finally, is the concept of freewill or agency.  My main concern is that agency is not simply a choice.  It hast to be much more than that.  We have to choose the outcome and not what is at the moment – else it is not a choice but rather a guess.  In this life, what we know and experience between birth and death is too uncertain for any choice to be stable and reliable.  We are primarily guessing the outcome.   The only possibility for consistency is that the exercise of agency can only be actual if there is a pre-existence and a post death exercise of will completing the process.  I find this concept to only exist in part in reincarnation but only realistic in LDS theology.  But I believe there are still logical holes that are unexplained or understood.  We believe that all things were known by G-d as to what would take place in our lives, but only if we were allowed to choose through our agency what takes place can there be the exercise of freewill and agency.

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

On 3/28/2025 at 4:33 PM, HaggisShuu said:

 

This next part, is probably something which has already been remarked upon somewhere, I'm just too lazy to look for it. 
If physical matter, has agency, surely it can also choose to obey satan for example. 
Christ can cure blindness, Satan can cause it. A priesthood blessing can improve an illness, an evil spirit can worsen it.

Because of this religious pseudo-scientific explanation, the problem of evil is not something which concerns me in the slightest. Literally everything bad can be blamed on Satan, not a design flaw in Gods creation. 

As part of the creation story in Abraham we read in 4:18 And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed.

Until they obeyed? That's gotta mean something.

D&C 93:30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

I find the wording here particularly interesting. The inability for a thing to act for itself = no existence, not just death or lifelessness, but no existence. 

But if are going to argue that all matter has agency then I don't think we can say God or Satan "causes" anything. Commands and matter obeys? Yes. But not truly causes, at least not directly.

Though I don't know that I am on board with the idea that matter obeys Satan, at least not without God's permission or God's omniscience that allows Him to strategically place disobedient matter only where it serves His purposes. 

Of course, we would need to better understand what exactly the fall did to matter as well. Is fallen matter a thing? If so, how so.

I personally don't see any need to place blame on Satan beyond his ability to entice more intelligent beings. Would he do more if he could? Sure. But even evil spirits entering into swine required the Savior's permission 

[CV75]

11 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

Something else to consider, when in Job, it appears to be Satan who afflicts Job with Boils, kills his family, starves his herd etc. 

I know there is split opinion on whether or not what is recorded in Job is real, or purely allegorical. But if you are in the first camp, there certainly seems to be some precedent for Satan causing illness. For example. 

Even if Job is allegorical, we have many other reports of the devil manipulating matter, but only within the sphere in which God has placed him. God cast him to the earth, and will someday cast him to outer darkness.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have pondered how to join the conversation.  We can get different views and understanding of things, like intelligence, by considering from a standpoint of macro or micro thinking.  We get a similar result in physics from Newtonian or quantum physics.  

Even if we are just considering who and what we are we think of our body and what is encompassed within it as that which defines us.  But as we look at our physical entity at the micro level, we find parts of us constantly being reborn at a cellular level.  Over a 7-year period there is a complete turnover of our living cells.  And all these living cells evolve as they are being turned over.  So, after 7 years are we really the same being?

We also learn that here are living cells within us are of different DNA.  It could be said that they are different creatures with whom we have formed a symbiotic relationship, and as it turns out there are more of those cells than there are of the cells that carry our unique DNA.  Now there is another question, are we really a unique singular individual entity?

I believe we have the same macro micro problem with our intelligence.  Our immune system is both a strange and a wonderful intelligence that seems to operate completely without our awareness.  We, as unique individuals, have intelligence beyond our cognizance and awareness.

Perhaps the best definition of intelligence we are given through science.  There are two parts.  First the ability to learn and second is the power to change the outcome.  One way to characterize learning and changing the outcome is in the scientific notion of evolution, especially the evolution of life and intelligent life.  Having worked with artificial intelligence during my lifetime contributions – it appears to me that distributed intelligence working as one is the most powerful.  We see this in what we call ecosystems of many complex parts working together creating a common good for all.

Finally, is the concept of freewill or agency.  My main concern is that agency is not simply a choice.  It hast to be much more than that.  We have to choose the outcome and not what is at the moment – else it is not a choice but rather a guess.  In this life, what we know and experience between birth and death is too uncertain for any choice to be stable and reliable.  We are primarily guessing the outcome.   The only possibility for consistency is that the exercise of agency can only be actual if there is a pre-existence and a post death exercise of will completing the process.  I find this concept to only exist in part in reincarnation but only realistic in LDS theology.  But I believe there are still logical holes that are unexplained or understood.  We believe that all things were known by G-d as to what would take place in our lives, but only if we were allowed to choose through our agency what takes place can there be the exercise of freewill and agency.

 

The Traveler

A couple of thoughts and opinions:

So, after 7 years are we really the same being? Yes (D&C 93: 33-34): “For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit (man) and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man (spirit) cannot receive a fulness of joy.”

Now there is another question, are we really a unique singular individual entity? Yes, and as demonstrated in the Fall, where all life followed after Adam and Eve into mortality, we have an integrated relationship stewardship with all other living things. When we are separated from them, we cannot receive a fullness of joy, the family being the most obvious application, but involving the entire eternal ecosystem. This entails the idea of oneness with God, oneness with each other, etc. Man (our spirit) is connected to them all in some fashion, most fundamentally at the level of the light of Christ. When we have a white stone and live on a Urim and Thummim, we will be aware and cognizant of all these interrelationships. Those living in lesser kingdoms will remain less so.

I tend to look at faith and knowledge as a complex, or two sides of the same coin of “experience” (or as D&C 93:30 puts it, existence -- a subjective experience). Alma 32 suggests this interdependency, and we can expand this complex to include hope (a desire to believe) and the pure love of Christ (the most precious fruit that is "sweet above all that is sweet"). God uses this complex in His exalted sphere. In this way, faith is the same as “foreknowledge,” the attribute of God which we call “omniscience” from the perspective of our lesser sphere.

God gave man his agency in the Garden of Eden as a continuation of premortal agency in a new sphere; the agency we exercise here as children of Adam and Eve is a continuation of that in this new sphere; the dead keep it in the sphere of the spirit world; we keep it post-resurrection spheres or kingdoms. The agency we exercise connects our spirit with the elements with which we are separably and inseparably connected, a fulness being that connection with all other life and existence.

[HaggisShuu]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

I personally don't see any need to place blame on Satan beyond his ability to entice more intelligent beings. Would he do more if he could? Sure. But even evil spirits entering into swine required the Savior's permission 

I think that Satan having the ability to influence matter on earth would have the desired effect. Giving a child an incurable illness is probably a really effective way to make a parent question their faith. 
 

If Satans current sphere is on this earth, I feel like his ability to influence matter within it follows as a logical consequence. 
 

Also wouldn't it be fun to rebrand natural disasters as "Acts of Satan" 

[Traveler]

On 3/30/2025 at 4:33 PM, CV75 said:

A couple of thoughts and opinions:

So, after 7 years are we really the same being? Yes (D&C 93: 33-34): “For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit (man) and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man (spirit) cannot receive a fulness of joy.”

Now there is another question, are we really a unique singular individual entity? Yes, and as demonstrated in the Fall, where all life followed after Adam and Eve into mortality, we have an integrated relationship stewardship with all other living things. When we are separated from them, we cannot receive a fullness of joy, the family being the most obvious application, but involving the entire eternal ecosystem. This entails the idea of oneness with God, oneness with each other, etc. Man (our spirit) is connected to them all in some fashion, most fundamentally at the level of the light of Christ. When we have a white stone and live on a Urim and Thummim, we will be aware and cognizant of all these interrelationships. Those living in lesser kingdoms will remain less so.

I tend to look at faith and knowledge as a complex, or two sides of the same coin of “experience” (or as D&C 93:30 puts it, existence -- a subjective experience). Alma 32 suggests this interdependency, and we can expand this complex to include hope (a desire to believe) and the pure love of Christ (the most precious fruit that is "sweet above all that is sweet"). God uses this complex in His exalted sphere. In this way, faith is the same as “foreknowledge,” the attribute of God which we call “omniscience” from the perspective of our lesser sphere.

God gave man his agency in the Garden of Eden as a continuation of premortal agency in a new sphere; the agency we exercise here as children of Adam and Eve is a continuation of that in this new sphere; the dead keep it in the sphere of the spirit world; we keep it post-resurrection spheres or kingdoms. The agency we exercise connects our spirit with the elements with which we are separably and inseparably connected, a fulness being that connection with all other life and existence.

I wanted to ponder a bit before responding.  In this thread there is a discussion about inanimate objects having a spirit.  Electrons are interesting objects that are thought to be inanimate.  I am convinced that individual electrons have individual spirits and intelligence.  In the quantum world we define electrons with probabilities.  The reason is that not all electrons will act the same under the same conditions.  As we increase the number of electrons we are “observing” the more it becomes evident that some electrons are defying the physics that seems to govern them.  No one has ever come up with a good explanation for quantum entanglement.    

I chose electrons for this discussion because our physical human bodies will not function without the operations of electrons.  We would not even be able to think, see, talk, move – is short even exist as humans without the separate intelligence of electrons.

Scripture tells us that physically we come from “dust” and to “dust” we shall return.  You quoted from the D&C 93 and I do not disagree at all – except that the physical part of us does indeed have influence as to how we behave and act.  We measure much of our human intelligence by how well our individual brains operate.  And there is more.  The scriptures talk about the “natural man” in terms of that physical influence over us.   The scriptures also talk about repentance and how we become a “different” creature. 

For myself, I am still pondering what I am and if I truly can become a different person.  I tend towards (with faith and hope) the possibility that it is likely that we are all on a path that will change what and who we are.

 

The Traveler

[HaggisShuu]

On 3/30/2025 at 8:13 PM, Traveler said:

Over a 7-year period there is a complete turnover of our living cells.  And all these living cells evolve as they are being turned over.  So, after 7 years are we really the same being?

Looking at the scriptures, I think the answer is found in section 93 when it talks about the elements being the tabernacle of God, I think what is being communicated is that physical matter is the tabernacle of the spiritual. I think we are still the same because of the spirit bodies housed in our physical bodies. And I think the change over of cells can be likened to a temple renovation. The structure will be physically altered. But when work is complete, it is rededicated, and it is still the same temple, being filled with the same spirit of God. 

 

On 3/30/2025 at 8:13 PM, Traveler said:

Now there is another question, are we really a unique singular individual entity?

I think yes and no. The human body is its own kind of ecosystem. For example, gut bacteria, is vital to the digestive process but does not originate from our own cells. On a cellular level, we definitely not one individual being, but again, I think our spirit bodies are what gives us our oneness. 

All things were made spiritually before physically (according to D&C 29). 
 

I think your remarks on the immune system and electrons are very interesting indeed, and seem to be in support of the idea that all things possess an intelligence. 

[Carborendum]

On 3/30/2025 at 2:13 PM, Traveler said:

Even if we are just considering who and what we are we think of our body and what is encompassed within it as that which defines us.  But as we look at our physical entity at the micro level, we find parts of us constantly being reborn at a cellular level.  Over a 7-year period there is a complete turnover of our living cells.  And all these living cells evolve as they are being turned over.  So, after 7 years are we really the same being?

This is a myth.

Various types of cells in our bodies renew at different rates.  And some cells don't really change at all.

On 3/30/2025 at 2:13 PM, Traveler said:

We also learn that here are living cells within us are of different DNA.  It could be said that they are different creatures with whom we have formed a symbiotic relationship, and as it turns out there are more of those cells than there are of the cells that carry our unique DNA.  Now there is another question, are we really a unique singular individual entity?

One may as well ask if we are one entity when we are holding a pet in our lap, or embracing a loved one.

On 3/30/2025 at 2:13 PM, Traveler said:

I believe we have the same macro micro problem with our intelligence.  Our immune system is both a strange and a wonderful intelligence that seems to operate completely without our awareness.  We, as unique individuals, have intelligence beyond our cognizance and awareness.

We interact with our immune system (and all of our autonomic processes) much more than we realize on a conscious level.  But rest assured, it is us.

Edited Tuesday at 06:56 PM by Carborendum

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

....

We interact with our immune system (and all of our autonomic processes) much more than we realize on a conscious level.  But rest assured, it is us.

I am not sure why you would say this.  There have been experiments where a person has been declared brain dead and yet many organs and various parts of the human body are able to continue to function under life support functions.  And this is without the discussions concerning organ transplants or cancerous cells that carry our DNA.

On another note – following a serious bicycling accident, cadaver bone was used to reconstruct my jaw so I could have a tooth implant.   The more I learn and experience, the fewer answers I am sure of.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

50 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am not sure why you would say this.  There have been experiments where a person has been declared brain dead and yet many organs and various parts of the human body are able to continue to function under life support functions.  And this is without the discussions concerning organ transplants or cancerous cells that carry our DNA.

On another note – following a serious bicycling accident, cadaver bone was used to reconstruct my jaw so I could have a tooth implant.   The more I learn and experience, the fewer answers I am sure of.

I don't see how any of this refutes my statements.

[CV75]

On 4/1/2025 at 12:13 PM, Traveler said:

I wanted to ponder a bit before responding.  In this thread there is a discussion about inanimate objects having a spirit.  Electrons are interesting objects that are thought to be inanimate.  I am convinced that individual electrons have individual spirits and intelligence.  In the quantum world we define electrons with probabilities.  The reason is that not all electrons will act the same under the same conditions.  As we increase the number of electrons we are “observing” the more it becomes evident that some electrons are defying the physics that seems to govern them.  No one has ever come up with a good explanation for quantum entanglement.    

I chose electrons for this discussion because our physical human bodies will not function without the operations of electrons.  We would not even be able to think, see, talk, move – is short even exist as humans without the separate intelligence of electrons.

Scripture tells us that physically we come from “dust” and to “dust” we shall return.  You quoted from the D&C 93 and I do not disagree at all – except that the physical part of us does indeed have influence as to how we behave and act.  We measure much of our human intelligence by how well our individual brains operate.  And there is more.  The scriptures talk about the “natural man” in terms of that physical influence over us.   The scriptures also talk about repentance and how we become a “different” creature. 

For myself, I am still pondering what I am and if I truly can become a different person.  I tend towards (with faith and hope) the possibility that it is likely that we are all on a path that will change what and who we are.

 

The Traveler

This may not have much to do with explaining quantum entanglement, but we are a soul (spirit and element, connected separably in mortality or inseparably in immortality) irrespective of the spirit, intelligence or agency an electron might have. All things are matter also, but there are many kinds of matter. Everything stores, or is capable of, storing data, but there are different kinds of data/information/knowledge. We are the same souls day in and day out from birth to death, but our various attributes of spirit and element become like God through Christ. Since our spirit/spiritual attributes determine our quickened glory (D&C 88: 27 – 32), they determine the level to which the elements connected with us are  glorified, how they function and what they do. We can come to master element just as the Lord does, through the light of Christ, to varying levels or degrees of glory.

God has placed us in a sphere where we can become like Him through Christ. While learning to spiritually master element (or gut bacteria) in a fallen telestial world, our lack of expertise can be perceived or construed as the elements influencing us, but I think we learn in retrospect that we were really subject to our mortal ignorance and limitations, and not the elements and bacteria themselves. These, whether living or nonliving, possessing intelligence or agency, capable of intercommunion or not, are ultimately part of our stewardship and dominion.