Adventures in Isaiah.

[HaggisShuu]

I've been studying Isaiah for the last 2 months, and alas, most of it is still going over my head. 

So I would like to share some thoughts and gather some thoughts on Isaiah 49:8

Quote

Thus saith the Lord⁠, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

To start off with, the header for this chapter seems to suggest that this chapter is describing the Latter-Day gathering of Israel. 
Verse 2 has some interesting commentary attached to it in Church textbooks:

Quote

And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword⁠; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

It is suggested that the "polished shaft" is in fact Joseph Smith. As this is how Joseph Smith described himself in this famous quote:

Quote

I am like a huge, rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in contact with something else, striking with accelerated force; thus I will become a smooth and polished shaft in the quiver of the Almighty.

So if we are running with the assumption that this particular chapter is discussing the Latter-Days, I think the prophecy in verse 8 is being fulfilled through covenant making and patriarchal blessings. 
 

Making covenants in the Church allows us to partake of the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant, which is one way the "earth is being established" and one way we become part of the extended family of Israel. 
What I find most fascinating though is how covenant making allows us to "inherit the desolate heritages" and I think this is fulfilled when we are declared to be part of a particular lineage in our patriarchal blessing. 
 

This may of course be a bogus interpretation, but I find the parallels quite striking. 

[laronius]

It is not unusual for these types of prophecy to have dual fulfillments, temporal and spiritual. I really like that phrase "desolate heritages." It so perfectly describes the scattering of Israel in relation to apostatizing from the ways of their righteous fathers and then temporal scattering that followed.

In the latter days, both the temporal and spiritual gatherings will and are taking place. Much of what you are describing relates to the spiritual gathering, of which covenants play a significant role.

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

So if we are running with the assumption that this particular chapter is discussing the Latter-Days,

This does not appear to be an assumption.  It seems pretty clear as day to any Latter-day Saint.

14 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

I think the prophecy in verse 8 is being fulfilled through covenant making and patriarchal blessings. 

More than that.  Your quote:

Quote

I am like a huge, rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in contact with something else, striking with accelerated force; thus I will become a smooth and polished shaft in the quiver of the Almighty.

Is the key.  A prophet leads.  The Saints follow.  We are given trials throughout our lives that knock off the rough edges until we become the instruments that the Lord needs us to be.  This is both generational and individual.

Quote

You see, we are like blocks of stone out of which the Sculptor carves the forms of men. The blows of his chisel, which hurt us so much are what make us perfect.

  ― C.S. Lewis

It is different parts of the overall interpretation.  But you seem to be mixing it all up into one monolith.

Allow me to mix metaphors (see what I did there) and liken it to a painting.  We have different colors in different pixels of the painting.  They need them to be where they are.  If we simply mix all the paint colors together and spill it onto the canvas, it's just a blank canvas with paint spilled on it.

So, we must keep each detail in the proper place (keep it in its lane).  Only then, can we see the overall picture.

14 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

Making covenants in the Church allows us to partake of the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant, which is one way the "earth is being established" and one way we become part of the extended family of Israel. 
What I find most fascinating though is how covenant making allows us to "inherit the desolate heritages" and I think this is fulfilled when we are declared to be part of a particular lineage in our patriarchal blessing. 

The prophecy in Ch 49 is about the establishment of the Church in the Latter-days as a preparation for the "Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord."  And verse 9 says that it is not just the mortal world we are talking about.

You might want to read the differences between Isa 49 and 1 Ne 21.

Edited April 28 by Carborendum

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

We have different colors in different pixels of the painting.

This sentence is proof society is about to collapse.

[Carborendum]

6 minutes ago, zil2 said:

This sentence is proof society is about to collapse.

 

Yeah, I wondered how that sentence would go over.  I used some literary license.  It was more succinct than the literal, technical description of what I was trying to convey.

[zil2]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 

Yeah, I wondered how that sentence would go over.  I used some literary license.  It was more succinct than the literal, technical description of what I was trying to convey.

Uh huh.  I'm just gonna go to the store and buy some more bottled water.

[HaggisShuu]

Another fun thing. Isaiah 56:1-8 speaks of a time when all will be welcome in the house of the lord, and God will gather in those who are not direct descendants of Israel. 
It then transitions into this: 

Quote

9 ¶ All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest.

10 His watchmen are blind⁠: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

Watchmen, Shepherds and dogs are all "guardians" of the flock. The beasts seek to devour the flock. This seems to prophesy of a time when, God will begin to gather in people from all over the world, yet the "guardians of the flock" will fail to prevent the beasts from devouring the faithful. 
This passage is said to refer to the gospel, and the beasts are those who reject the gospel, and seek to rip away others from the gospel. 
The blind watchmen are those who fail to see evil. The mute dogs are those who fail to alert of Evil. The greedy dogs are those absorbed in lives of excess and the shepherds who lack understanding are leaders who just don't know any better. 
 

Apparently there isn't much consensus among scholars as to what is actually spoken about here, so I thought it could lead to some interesting insights. 
Does it refers to the restored gospel or christianity in general? Or some other principle? 
 

To me it seems like a warning against ineffective and unprepared leadership in the modern restored church. Would anybody say that they have seen examples where a unprepared leader has allowed a beast to devour some sheep? 
 

I read this chapter today, and also D&C 46, and it's good timing really, D&C 46 seems to offer the solution to this folly:

1. exclude nobody from meetings (inviting those who seek to destroy the gospel - referred to as the beasts - in, probably does quite a bit to diminish their power. 

2. and to encourage everybody to develop their spiritual gifts for the benefit of Gods children. The D&C is quite clear, everybody will have at least 1 spiritual gift. If we all recognise it, and use it, then the sheep are prepared for times when beasts managed to get past the watchmen, dogs and shepherds. 

These are just some impressions from my personal study. They probably aren't worth much to anybody else 😝
 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:52 PM by HaggisShuu

[HaggisShuu]

19 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

Another fun thing. Isaiah 56:1-8 speaks of a time when all will be welcome in the house of the lord, and God will gather in those who are not direct descendants of Israel. 
It then transitions into this: 

Watchmen, Shepherds and dogs are all "guardians" of the flock. The beasts seek to devour the flock. This seems to prophesy of a time when, God will begin to gather in people from all over the world, yet the "guardians of the flock" will fail to prevent the beasts from devouring the faithful. 
This passage is said to refer to the gospel, and the beasts are those who reject the gospel, and seek to rip away others from the gospel. 
The blind watchmen are those who fail to see evil. The mute dogs are those who fail to alert of Evil. The greedy dogs are those absorbed in lives of excess and the shepherds who lack understanding are leaders who just don't know any better. 
 

Apparently there isn't much consensus among scholars as to what is actually spoken about here, so I thought it could lead to some interesting insights. 
Does it refers to the restored gospel or christianity in general? Or some other principle? 
 

To me it seems like a warning against ineffective and unprepared leadership in the modern restored church. Would anybody say that they have seen examples where a unprepared leader has allowed a beast to devour some sheep? 
 

I read this chapter today, and also D&C 46, and it's good timing really, D&C 46 seems to offer the solution to this folly:

1. exclude nobody from meetings (inviting those who seek to destroy the gospel - referred to as the beasts - in, probably does quite a bit to diminish their power. 

2. and to encourage everybody to develop their spiritual gifts for the benefit of Gods children. The D&C is quite clear, everybody will have at least 1 spiritual gift. If we all recognise it, and use it, then the sheep are prepared for times when beasts managed to get past the watchmen, dogs and shepherds. 

These are just some impressions from my personal study. They probably aren't worth much to anybody else 😝
 

 

 

On an additional note, I started reading the old testament last year when we were still on the Book of Mormon, and continued it into this year, it's remarkable how when you read two different books of scripture side by side, you find different chapters that perfectly complement each other. I wish I recorded my impressions more often.  

[Traveler]

On 4/27/2025 at 4:34 PM, HaggisShuu said:

I've been studying Isaiah for the last 2 months, and alas, most of it is still going over my head. 

So I would like to share some thoughts and gather some thoughts on Isaiah 49:8

To start off with, the header for this chapter seems to suggest that this chapter is describing the Latter-Day gathering of Israel. 
Verse 2 has some interesting commentary attached to it in Church textbooks:

It is suggested that the "polished shaft" is in fact Joseph Smith. As this is how Joseph Smith described himself in this famous quote:

So if we are running with the assumption that this particular chapter is discussing the Latter-Days, I think the prophecy in verse 8 is being fulfilled through covenant making and patriarchal blessings. 
 

Making covenants in the Church allows us to partake of the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant, which is one way the "earth is being established" and one way we become part of the extended family of Israel. 
What I find most fascinating though is how covenant making allows us to "inherit the desolate heritages" and I think this is fulfilled when we are declared to be part of a particular lineage in our patriarchal blessing. 
 

This may of course be a bogus interpretation, but I find the parallels quite striking. 

I will say a few things about Isaiah.  The first relates to Isaiah 46:10 “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,”.  The next thing I will say about Isaiah is that it is written in an ancient Hebrew poetic literary form.  Nephi tells us in the Book of Mormon that if we understand this ancient format, it is easy to understand Isaiah.  If we do not understand this format, we will miss important elements of Isaiah.

The history of mankind from Adam to the end of man will occur with repeating cycles of restoration and apostasy.  This is the primary focus of Isaiah.

The best resource I have encountered to help understand Isaiah is the book written by Avraham Gileadi titled "The Literary Message of Isaiah”.  Avraham was a Rabbi that devoted his life to studying Isaiah and was converted by reading the Book of Mormon and how it quotes Isaiah. 

Avraham believes that the Isaiah is a stunning example of Hebrew poetic literary form around the chiasmic format.  Not just in what is physically written but as the Isaiah scroll found among the Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrates – is literally two scrolls stitched together one being a mirror image or chiasm of the other.  This amounting to a chiasm within a chiasm.

In other words, verse 8 that you first reference has connection to Isaiah 55:3-5.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

Can't really tell you more about the Isaiah verses in question beyond what the institute manual and your own reasoning have figured out.

But...

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

I wish I recorded my impressions more often.  

Get a fountain pen and a nice journal.  The act of writing will be so pleasant you'll be looking for excuses to write! Proof:

[Traveler]

15 hours ago, zil2 said:

Can't really tell you more about the Isaiah verses in question beyond what the institute manual and your own reasoning have figured out.

But...

Get a fountain pen and a nice journal.  The act of writing will be so pleasant you'll be looking for excuses to write! Proof:

For those that are more accustomed to and find spellcheck and other assistance helpful – keeping notes on your computer under a specialized folder and sub folders (which are easily backup on a thumb drive and/or the cloud) it can be better preserved in case of fire or other catastrophic events.

For someone like me that has great problems with the English language and even though I have a strong dislike for those profiting from Microsoft Word – there are benefits.  I am also convinced that anything written and saved should be edited with the concept that it will be available to your posterity and others.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

TL,DR: You don't have to get upset every time I mention fountain pens. I know you're not a writer, and it's an invitation, not a demand.

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

For those that are more accustomed to and find spellcheck and other assistance helpful – keeping notes on your computer under a specialized folder and sub folders (which are easily backup on a thumb drive and/or the cloud) it can be better preserved in case of fire or other catastrophic events.

Everything but the cloud is going to melt/burn in a fire.  The vast majority of houses don't catch fire.

We have writing from thousands of years ago.  Meanwhile, good luck finding anything to read your floppy disk from the 1980s or even 1990s.  Most people don't even have a CD/DVD drive in their computers anymore.  Even Microsoft products won't open their own older file formats, so you have to not only upgrade, but import and resave files each upgrade - or try to keep an ancient computer running.  The notion that digital files will always be accessible is absurd - unless, maybe, you stick to .txt files - the only files that appear mostly unchanged since DOS days and that, I think, are compatible across OSs.

22 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am also convinced that anything written and saved should be edited with the concept that it will be available to your posterity and others.

So, what, you're gonna refuse to read 19th century journals and letters? You'll be missing out on treasure.

23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

For someone like me

Everyone has their own unique needs and preferences.  I know full well that 99.99% of the population isn't going to use a fountain pen. But if it's a difference between not making a record at all, and making one on paper, the better choice is obvious. My invitation is harmless, and mostly teasing. You don't have to go all off on it every time I make it.

And if you need me to spell out the gospel-related good that has happened because I write with fountain pens and associate with other fountain pen users, let me know, cuz I've got some good ones. God can do His work, even through fountain pens.

[Ironhold]

19 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

To me it seems like a warning against ineffective and unprepared leadership in the modern restored church. Would anybody say that they have seen examples where a unprepared leader has allowed a beast to devour some sheep? 

As I've noted elsewhere, during the late 1990s and most of the 2000s the stake leadership in my stake were *fixated* on the idea that all male members of the church were obligated to serve a two-year proselytizing mission, no excuses, and that a failure to do so made one of questionable value to the church. 

This fixation caused a great many young men, and I think a few young women, to leave the area to escape it, if not leave the church. It also hindered the efforts of those of us like myself who were beginning to see the internet as an avenue for missionary work, raising the question of how much more we could have done if we'd have had proper support. 

To this day I loathe attending stake priesthood meetings and stake conference adult sessions *because* of everything I went through and was forced to listen to back then, especially since the need to attend to family concerns kept me back. 

Fast forward a few years. Salt Lake has authorized a young single adult branch because the records say we have enough YSA members for an entire ward. It turns out that most of those members only existed on paper, having either left the area some time ago with the military, with college, out of a desire to avoid various pressures, or aren't even active members anymore if they still do see themselves as members. It's a struggle to keep the branch functional, and when we do finally get going a narcissistic elder's quorum president winds up alienating a number of people who do come because he can't put his own ego aside long enough to help others. There was cheering when he got assigned to another duty station, but by then the damage had already been done and the branch was shuttered after less than a decade.

So yeah, I've seen what can happen when incompetent or inattentive leaders are in charge. 

[HaggisShuu]

20 hours ago, zil2 said:

Can't really tell you more about the Isaiah verses in question beyond what the institute manual and your own reasoning have figured out.

But...

Get a fountain pen and a nice journal.  The act of writing will be so pleasant you'll be looking for excuses to write! Proof:

I have about 5 fountain pens. My current favourite is a red parker pen that cost me £120. 
I have a leather refillable journal also. I enjoy writing, but use my journal for more personal things, and not so much a gospel study journal. 

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, zil2 said:

TL,DR: You don't have to get upset every time I mention fountain pens. I know you're not a writer, and it's an invitation, not a demand.

Everything but the cloud is going to melt/burn in a fire.  The vast majority of houses don't catch fire.

We have writing from thousands of years ago.  Meanwhile, good luck finding anything to read your floppy disk from the 1980s or even 1990s.  Most people don't even have a CD/DVD drive in their computers anymore.  Even Microsoft products won't open their own older file formats, so you have to not only upgrade, but import and resave files each upgrade - or try to keep an ancient computer running.  The notion that digital files will always be accessible is absurd - unless, maybe, you stick to .txt files - the only files that appear mostly unchanged since DOS days and that, I think, are compatible across OSs.

So, what, you're gonna refuse to read 19th century journals and letters? You'll be missing out on treasure.

Everyone has their own unique needs and preferences.  I know full well that 99.99% of the population isn't going to use a fountain pen. But if it's a difference between not making a record at all, and making one on paper, the better choice is obvious. My invitation is harmless, and mostly teasing. You don't have to go all off on it every time I make it.

And if you need me to spell out the gospel-related good that has happened because I write with fountain pens and associate with other fountain pen users, let me know, cuz I've got some good ones. God can do His work, even through fountain pens.

Oh, the things I could tell you.  My father was an artist, and calligraphy was an art form he loved.  I was the only one of his children that did not develop any usable talent.   Early in my professional career I was assigned a secretary to proofread and correct all my communications.  Currently I can read about half of my professional and private journals pre Word and Word Perfect.

In the future, AI will decipher any seemingly outdated digital or even analog script.  But this was not the point I intended to make.  What I had in mind is that when making a record, be mindful of what you say to who will be reading it.  Some topics are more impactful than others.  For example, I have discovered that my grandchildren are very interested in some of my dating methods – like I use to make sure I had a Hershey chocolate kiss with me (especially on first dates) so when I took the lady home and walked her to her door, I would say, “I would like to give you a kiss goodnight.”  I would then hand her the chocolate kiss and say, “Good night” and immediately leave.  I loved to do this because in my day – kissing on a first date in my youthful Utah community absolutely was forbidden.  It was my way to stand out and be remembered.

With my computer and subfolders, I can put this story in a different folder from my spiritual experiences.  I have a separate subfolder for my scientific achievements and theories.  I have found that only about ½ of 1% of the people I meet are interested in scientific observations.   Not much more than that are interested in my spiritual observations.  

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

I'm glad you also have a record-keeping method that seems to bring you joy and provide you with utility, @Traveler!

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

scientific observations

I got a mention in a published scientific paper last year (or was it 2023?).  Whatever.  The paper was about ink flow in fountain pens!   I can get you a link, if you wish.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

I'm glad you also have a record-keeping method that seems to bring you joy and provide you with utility, @Traveler!

I got a mention in a published scientific paper last year (or was it 2023?).  Whatever.  The paper was about ink flow in fountain pens!   I can get you a link, if you wish.

I wish! I wish!

[zil2]

51 minutes ago, Vort said:

I wish! I wish!

  The paper is on ScienceDirect: "Identification of fountain pen ink properties which determine the amount put on paper during handwriting" - access should be free to all. The author is Austrian, so if the English ever seems off, that's why (I don't remember it being off, but it was published in July 2022, so I can't remember).  The author is also a university professor (and one of my pen pals).  I'll note that my mention was simply as someone encouraging the author, not as a contributing scientist or any such lofty thing. (Section 5, where I'm listed as "LizEF").

The Fountain Pen Network thread where we discussed the data collection and theories is "An alternative look at ink wetness" - I learned a lot in this thread, having never studied physics, some of it was beyond me, other bits my instincts knew, but couldn't explain... blah blah.

Enjoy - or not, as the case may be.  It was certainly a lot of fun in the thread, and I was able to understand most of the paper.

[Vort]

You're #1!

[zil2]

24 minutes ago, Vort said:

You're #1!

The subject interested me greatly, so I had lots of questions and followed through the whole process.  Since I couldn't contribute like some of the others (there were another ~5, I think, scientists in the thread), I just tried to learn and be encouraging.  Here's my reaction to some of the more in-depth science discussions:

(Hopefully that shows up for everyone - those are usernames at the non-arrow ends of the lines.)

Edited 18 hours ago by zil2