California Insurrection

[LDSGator]

9 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

unlike the left, I will scream at my own side for being wrong.

I completely agree that the left mostly lacks the ability to engage in self critique, but, the two leftists I know well both do.
 

Conservatives pre Trump were far far better at tolerating dissenters than they are now. 

[Phoenix_person]

41 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

 

Strike through because I disagree.

I asked my co worker who is a Colonel in the National Guard.  He was not sure if it was legal but was going to get back to me.  If it is not legal, unlike the left, I will scream at my own side for being wrong.

One of the things I dislike the most about this administration is that "legality" seems to be a fluid concept when it comes to law enforcement, due process, and compliance with court decisions. The problem with shifting the goalposts for people enforcing the law is that it diminishes respect for the law from both government and the governed. Trump isn't strengthening the rule of law, he's testing it to see where the breaking point is. Also, the fact that an Army Colonel didn't immediately know the answer to your question seems.... not ideal.

Obama deported more illegal immigrants than any president before or after him, and he did it without using heavily armed agents in vehicles similar to the ones I drove in Iraq. I don't say this to defend him. Quite the contrary, leftists soured on him pretty hard once they realized the extent of his anti-immigration and domestic surveillance activities. I'm just saying that it can be done without the public spectacle. Republicans scream so much about border security that I don't know what they'd campaign on if we had fully closed borders. Maybe that's why Trump didn't have to twist their arms to kill Biden's bill. 

Edited June 9 by Phoenix_person

[Carborendum]

47 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Obama deported more illegal immigrants than any president before or after him, and he did it without using heavily armed agents in vehicles similar to the ones I drove in Iraq.

Well, good for him.

I don't recall Obama having to deal with riots and takeovers like CHOP and CHAZ (which is what this activity in CA is turning into).  Yes, there was some civil unrest and chaos.  But it simply wasn't at the same level as during Trump's terms (both of them).

That said, I believe that Trump ought to just leave it all alone.  If the Governor of CA and Mayor of LA both want to fan the flames of destruction in their own backyard, then let them.  It will do nothing but destroy blue states. 

Eventually, Mexico can take over the west coast.  Then they will have to do without Federal funds.  And we will see exactly how much good can be done with buildings completely occupied by people chosen for their DEI creds rather than ability to make a business flourish.

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I completely agree that the left mostly lacks the ability to engage in self critique, but, the two leftists I know well both do.
 

I've not had that experience with my left wing friends.

 

Quote

Conservatives pre Trump were far far better at tolerating dissenters than they are now. 

 

There are definitely more now, but I still think the majority have not leaned that way.

[Phoenix_person]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, good for him.

I don't recall Obama having to deal with riots and takeovers like CHOP and CHAZ (which is what this activity in CA is turning into).  Yes, there was some civil unrest and chaos.  But it simply wasn't at the same level as during Trump's terms (both of them).

The iPhone was invented in 2007. I was still on Myspace back then. Obama was the first president in the age of smartphones, hashtags, and everyone everywhere having a camera/camcorder/encyclopedia/voice recorder/etc in their pocket. I don't think it's a coincidence that increased social connectivity brought us here. People are more informed than ever. Everything in the world is vulnerable to instant public exposure, even our government. It turns out, it's a pretty ugly world. Most of us already knew that, but now everyone can see it in 4k.

When I say that leftists turned on Obama in hindsight, it's because our information technology infrastructure was still growing when he took office. We had more visibility, but didn't know what to do with it (I'd argue that's still true to an extent, especially now that AI is part of that infrastructure). Biden didn't have that particular advantage/problem, and neither does Trump. For better or worse, our government's shenanigan's are out there for the whole world to see. Rapid distribution of information means rapid community mobilization. 

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That said, I believe that Trump ought to just leave it all alone.  If the Governor of CA and Mayor of LA both want to fan the flames of destruction in their own backyard, then let them.  It will do nothing but destroy blue states. 

We're in agreement here. As I said, this whole thing probably would have fizzled away into nothing Saturday night if Trump hadn't intervened.

 

[Traveler]

It is hard to say what really is going on.  During the 60’s I was with some friends on a scuba outing at Long Beach California.  It had been a long day in the water, and we were all tired in the late afternoon gathering all our equipment and stuff on the beach.  We watched a “black” fellow running along the board walk grab a purse from an elderly lady walking on the board walk.  The fellow took off and the lady screamed. 

In that era the surfers ruled the beach and as far as I knew all surfers were white back then.  About 5 surfers took off after the black fellow with the intention of not letting such a thing happen on their beach.

We thought this might be fun to watch so we left one to watch all our stuff and the rest of us followed the excitement.  It did not take long for the surfers to catch up, but the fellow had found refuge with about 20 of his friends (all black).   The surfers immediately called to their friends for backup and within seconds (so it seemed) the ratio of white on black was about 3 to 1 and a physical confrontation quickly erupted.

The police quickly arrived but by then about 2 black fellows were rather beaten up – the purse had been retrieved.  There were no arrests because there was uncertainty about who took the purse in the first place.  Everybody broke up and went their way with the exception of the two black guys that were taken by ambulance.

None of us thought much about all of it until the national news hour that evening.   The story line was a race riot over blacks not being allowed on the beach.  The broadcast gave the impression that the 20 black guys were badly beat up by hundreds of racists white guys.   Somehow it seemed that several ambulances took just about all the black guys in critical condition to local hospitals.   It was announced on the news that the police assisted in beating up the black guys that just wanted some beach experience.   There was no mention of a stolen purse.

I was a teenager at the time and was quite surprised that the national news could possibly get a story so wrong.  I have been present only twice when something happened to make the national news.  Both times what was reported was so unaligned from the truth – that I do not trust the national news.

I have only one somewhat distant friend that was in DC on February 6th – they did not see anything burning or pushed down. 

I am quite sure (though I do not know) that there are criminal elements among the undocumented immigrants in California.  There is a significant drug problem in California and there has been for a very long time.  I have been in LA and have seen for myself the effects of illegal drug imports.  It is my understanding that as much as 90% of the crime that takes place currently has some connection to the drug trade and drug cartels. 

I could be incorrect, but it is my opinion that any efforts to enforce immigration laws will have an effect on the drug cartels and their organized crime in our country.  If efforts to curtail the drug cartels and their operations persists – we are only seeing the beginning of their reach in our society and politics.  Having visited Mexico, I am concerned with such influences of corruption in our country and society.  As someone that follows the prophecies, especially of the restoration, I believe that we quite possibly are entering an era of increasing division and violence.   My plan is to increase my efforts of repentance and stand in holy places.

 

The Traveler

[mirkwood]

3 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Also, the fact that an Army Colonel didn't immediately know the answer to your question seems.... not ideal.

 

Not really, I summarized the conversation.  He's going to verify the legality.  He thinks no, I think yes.

 

Quote

I'm just saying that it can be done without the public spectacle.

 

Laughable and you know it.  The left has created a world that will never allow these actions to be anything BUT a public spectacle.  The left does not want deportations and at best ignores the violence accompanying the "protests."  I provided support for ICE about two months ago and it was all over the Facebook page in the town I work before I had cleared the scene (I was there about 20 minutes.)

[Vort]

There is a reason that leftists consistently self-report as being mentally diseased at statistically significantly higher rates than those on the right. The leftist agenda is literally designed to appeal to those with certain mental diseases and weaknesses. I have noticed among my leftist acquaintances that self-definition according to one's particular mental diseases is quite popular. SMH.

Edited June 10 by Vort

[Phoenix_person]

BTW, remember that policy blueprint from the Heritage Foundation that Trump and the entire GOP tried to convince us wasn't a consequential part of their platform? The one that we were called conspiracy theorists for talking about until we were blue in the face? Well, one of the main authors of P2025 is now the head of OMB and an online tracker has us at 42% implementation. Page 555 recommends mobilizing the National Guard to assist with border security (nothing about Marines, though). I hope you've all read up on it, because it's going to define virtually everything about Trump's second term.

https://www.project2025.observer/

[Phoenix_person]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

There is a reason that leftists consistently self-report as being mentally diseased at statistically significantly higher rates than those on the right. The leftist agenda is literally designed to appeal to those who certain mental diseases and weaknesses. I have noticed among my leftist acquaintances that self-definition according to one's particular mental diseases is quite popular. SMH.

Funny, I've heard similar things said about MAGA folks and religious people. Personally, I think it's an incredibly lazy (and somewhat offensive) scapegoat that in no way actually explains why people gravitate towards the belief systems they do.

I'll admit that I struggle not to let my mental illness define me. It's hard when I literally wear it on my sleeve, so to speak, but that's why I have a therapist. I'm not ashamed of my mental illness. It's just a part of the complex formula that makes up my psyche. It offers me perspectives I wouldn't otherwise have, which is admittedly useful in some of the political advocacy work I do for recovering addicts and homeless people. But I would hope that being mentally ill isn't a prerequisite for caring about downtrodden people.

Generally speaking, I think leftism appeals to people who value empathy above all else, and conservatism appeals to those who value moral rigidity above all else. I'm certainly not saying that leftists don't have morals or that conservatives don't have empathy, just that our priorities are different. And when push comes to shove, both are usually willing to bend the rules to suit their goals. Leftists bend the rules to help people. Conservatives bend the rules to control them. But only leftists are intellectually honest about how they view rules/laws they don't agree with. The idea of "unjust laws" is foreign to conservatives, but fighting unjust laws is how we got things like voting rights for women, labor reform, and the civil rights movement. MLK offered a great perspective on unjust laws in his letter from Birmingham jail (a sharp rebuke to the timid white liberals of the time). 

I've also found that many conservatives still stigmatize mental illness to a significant degree (like you did with your comment), so it's unsurprising that fewer of them are inclined to openly talk about their mental health. 🤷‍♂️

[Vort]

16 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Funny, I've heard similar things said about MAGA folks and religious people. Personally, I think it's an incredibly lazy (and somewhat offensive) scapegoat that in no way actually explains why people gravitate towards the belief systems they do.

You apparently have misunderstood my meaning. I am not scapegoating leftists. Rather, I am pointing out that solid statistical evidence suggests that those on the political left are more prone to certain mental diseases than those on the right. This is not a mere allegation or attempt at slinging mud. Many possible explanations for this supposed discrepancy exist, any or all of which may hold some truth or be false. But it seems undeniable to me that, at the very least, the foundation of the modern US political left is designed to appeal to people with certain mental and/or emotional limitations.

It concerns me a great deal when a blatantly absurd proposition (e.g. the non-existence of sex and/or the complete separation of sex from some academic redefinition of "gender") gains widespread popularity among the entrenched political left. I believe this way of thinking, this appeal to populist authority, is intimately related to the current brouhaha in California. I think most on the political left are folks of relatively mean intelligence who are strongly swayed by the opinions of peers, and especially of peers who belong to the influence group (as typified by professional entertainers of various types). Ironically, this is much the same charge that those self-same leftists charge against the brainwashed Trumpsters that they accuse the political right of being.

When we have a group with a disproportionate number of people with mental or emotional illnesses, I think it's valid to wonder if that group's decisions on issues that touch on their personal mental illnesses may not be consonant with a healthy society. If that is true, and I think it's not a hard argument to make, then we must see whether we have societal structures that report this openly. That would be the purview of the press; sadly, the members of the news media are very heavily indoctrinated into this very mindset. It is not coincidence that the leftist media buried and even openly denied the entire Hunter Biden laptop fiasco—an issue that, if it had been sufficiently and openly reported and acknowledged, might well have swung the 2020 election.

Edited June 10 by Vort

[Phoenix_person]

25 minutes ago, Vort said:

You apparently have misunderstood my meaning. I am not scapegoating leftists. Rather, I am pointing out that solid statistical evidence suggests that those on the political left are more prone to certain mental diseases than those on the right. This is not a mere allegation or attempt at slinging mud.

Then I'm confused as to why you brought it up at all. Given your well-documented disdain for leftists, I hope you can see why your comment provoked the reaction that it did. 

29 minutes ago, Vort said:

I think most on the political left are folks of relatively mean intelligence who are strongly swayed by the opinions of peers, and especially of peers who belong to the influence group (as typified by professional entertainers of various types). Ironically, this is much the same charge that those self-same leftists charge against the brainwashed Trumpsters that they accuse the political right of being.

When it comes to extreme factions, there are a lot of very gullible and suggestable folks on both sides. The nature of extremism is that it appeals to people who struggle with critical thinking. And yes, there are plenty of those on the far left as well as the far right. That's not mental illness, it's just low IQ, and IQ is generally unrelated to overall mental competence. There are plenty of sane idiots and mentally unstable geniuses out there. Mental illness doesn't discriminate.

I don't think simple gullibility or emotional reactionism is what's fueling the LA protests, though. As I said earlier, this didn't happen in a vacuum. When you rule with a heavy hand, sooner or later your hand gets bit. That's just human nature. History never looks favorably on people who mobilize armed agents of the state against civilians. One of two things always happens: 1) the soldiers slaughter innocent civilians, or 2) the soldiers turn their guns on the people who sent them to attack civilians. Neither is a desirable outcome, which is why domestic military action against civilians is considered taboo in free societies, an absolute LAST resort. Trump was so quick to cross that line at the first sign of resistance. And as I (and the LA police commissioner) said, Saturday wasn't even that bad. 

[Phoenix_person]

It looks like DHS is attempting to repair their public image in LA by *checks notes* sending federal agents into elementary schools to conduct "wellness checks" on 1st graders. 

 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

You apparently have misunderstood my meaning. I am not scapegoating leftists. Rather, I am pointing out that solid statistical evidence suggests that those on the political left are more prone to certain mental diseases than those on the right. .....

I do not think this is very difficult to understand why the logic of liberal thinking leans more towards mental issues.   There is strong correlation between recreational use of psychoactive drugs and mental illness.  The legalization of recreational use of psychoactive drugs is strictly a liberal political plank.  It has never been a conservative backed issue.  Conservatives are also less likely to rely on alcohol or tobacco for recreation.  Legalization of marijuana is a predominant liberal solution to depression or just dropping out if someone does not like life.  Studies now prove that the adolescent (under age 25) brain is severely damaged with marijuana – the more the use the greater the damage.   From personal observations – I believe that adult brains are fried with heavy use as well.

The other tenant of liberal thinking also relies heavily on victimization and lack of personal responsibility.  Many have claimed that psychoactive drugs mellows out users – but I am not sure.  It appears to me that bipolar or schizophrenic mental issues often result from high recreational use of drugs (including alcohol) – but these mental states, which, on occasion, erupt in fits of anger – which leads to a variety of social issues and loss of employment which reinforces victimization and a vicious downward cycle.  All such thinking leads to bar fight (often considered manly – perhaps toxic manliness) or other forms of aggression.

I am concerned for two reasons.  I have no idea how to help and I seldom see anyone break out of this cycle once it gets a hold on them.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

9 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

It looks like DHS is attempting to repair their public image in LA by *checks notes* sending federal agents into elementary schools to conduct "wellness checks" on 1st graders. 

 

This is a problem with PBS presenting only one side of an issue and lean heavily on the side of extremely anti-Trump.  ICE is committed to following up on children that came unaccompanied across the border.   There is evidence that unaccompanied children that cross the border are prone to being human trafficked. 

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

If this is true, it’s another reason why I hate the rioters. 

What in the world is your issue with a mural showing Kobe Bryant and his daughter? Is the world a better place now that you destroyed this sweet little mural?!

[LDSGator]

23 hours ago, mirkwood said:

I've not had that experience with my left wing friends.

 

I think we just know a different type of leftist. No, that doesn’t mean yours or my friends are “better”, just different. 

One of my best friends is as far to the left as you are to the right (not an insult, genuine description). I’m assuring you that he can laugh at his views, take jokes, and look inward better than 90% of conservatives that I know.  I think it has to do more with personality than politics. 

[Phoenix_person]

4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I think we just know a different type of leftist. No, that doesn’t mean yours or my friends are “better”, just different. 

One of my best friends is as far to the left as you are to the right (not an insult, genuine description). I’m assuring you that he can laugh at his views, take jokes, and look inward better than 90% of conservatives that I know.  I think it has to do more with personality than politics. 

A lot of people underestimate the range of leftist ideology and the variation of subsets. Leftists are probably the least monolithic group in politics, by a lot. 

Edited June 10 by Phoenix_person

[NeuroTypical]

Two of the most on-topic videos I've seen so far.  Homan interview, and two Harvard lawyers that have gained a good reputation for being correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ironhold]

I had to explain the term "Rooftop Koreans" to my mom last night. 

Charter-Spectrum's 24-hour Spectrum News channel has been all over the protests in LA, and as we have our cable service via Spectrum the channel is our default whenever we turn the cable box on. This is what mom was watching yesterday to find out more information, and we started talking. 

I mentioned that term as part of my concern about what locals may or may not eventually do, and things went from there. 

edit - 

For those who don't know, during the Rodney King riots, various leaders in the Korean district organized militias in order to defend the region. This included armed individuals being posted on the rooftops of select buildings. A photo of one such would-be sharpshooter went the 90s equivalent of viral, and has since been rediscovered by the internet. 

Edited June 11 by Ironhold

[mirkwood]

LA yesterday and today.

 

Handing out gear to fight the police/National Guard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NeuroTypical]

In stunning news, Colorado's Dem governor and Dem Denver mayor took care of business.  ~100 protestors at capitol hill yesterday, and it all went well until it didn't.  Protests are good, riots are not.   Clashes started, rocks and bottles and stuff started flying.  The protest became a riot.  The cops read the riot act, then dispersed the riot. Arrested maybe a dozen or two rioters. 

So, kudos to the liberal blue democrats in charge of Denver, because they did good.  And by "do good", I mean they understand how important law and order is to the people who will vote for them in the next elections.  It's nice when a representative government understands the will of the people. 

[mirkwood]

I was just issued a gas mask due to local planned protests tomorrow and Saturday.

[zil2]

26 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I was just issued a gas mask due to local planned protests tomorrow and Saturday.

I'd say "stay safe", but I suppose it's your job not to so I can.  So I'll pray for you, instead.

[LDSGator]

18 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

A lot of people underestimate the range of leftist ideology and the variation of subsets. Leftists are probably the least monolithic group in politics, by a lot. 

That, but I think I was absolutely right when I said it’s more personality than politics. There are immature brats on every side of the political spectrum who can’t handle dissent, can’t have friends who disagree with them, make personal attacks, etc.