How easy is it ????

[Canuck Mormon]

If I didn't sin, I would not be here. Same as you!

If it would be answered by the person to whom it was addressed, I would not have to keep asking?

Kinda like the movie Pretty Woman...... Greer kept calling Julia from his office to tell her no to answer the phone....She said " then stop calling".....Hence,,,,,, I guess I just wanted to see if Hemi himself would admit to being a sinner...... But he won't answer the question.

So one could assume he fears answering yes, but does not want to answer no. KWIM ???

So, I stopped asking.

Question answered.

[Hemidakota]

Ugh, Vanhin can answer that one since I see he is here. Vanhin? The topic is Santification. They believe they are walking the path as Baptist.

[lostnfound]

It was answered but she is not paying attention: #124.

yep it was answered! Yeah..he clamed to be a sinner. Glad to know we all agree!

[Hemidakota]

I wish we could talk about the temple..( Just to show some contridictions with the bible..

Actually, my dear old Professor Nibley would beat you up on that one. Man, that man had some memory glands I could drew over.

However, I have to go. :

[Vanhin]

The words of the resurrected Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ:

And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.

For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away. (3 Ne. 11:28-30)

Regards,

Vanhin

[lostnfound]

Ugh, Vanhin can answer that one since I see he is here. Vanhin? The topic is Santification. They believe they are walking the path as Baptist.

huh?? Walking the path of baptist??? Who are you talking about?

[lostnfound]

Actually, my dear old Professor Nibley would beat you up on that one. Man, that man had some memory glands I could drew over.

However, I have to go. :

would love to have talked to him.but unfortunately we can't talk about it.((

[Vanhin]

Ugh, Vanhin can answer that one since I see he is here. Vanhin? The topic is Santification. They believe they are walking the path as Baptist.

Let me go back and read some more of the thread. This thread is moving really fast. Which post are you referring to?

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[MaidservantX]

Canuck already gave moderator warnings to this thread, but let me add my support to that; and also add my request to my fellow members of the Church of Jesus Christ to follow the scripture Vanhin posted (from 3rd Nephi) -- take great care to be kind and long-suffering. It takes no skin off our nose, so to speak, to speak and answer in such a manner (or just don't participate!) I know this is a passionate debate, which can be okay, and I think everyone here can "handle" that -- but again . . . deep breaths! :)

I found this great blog on this site that I think most of us discussing here can find quite a bit of common ground.

We all know and love Jesus Christ and he is our Savior.

Blogs » amazing grace » LDS Mormon Network

Here's another.

Blogs » this is the christ » LDS Mormon Network

[Jenamarie]

Thank you Vanhin, I needed that reminder. I really need to just avoid these types of threads.

[Vanhin]

The Atonement of Jesus Christ makes it possible for us to become clean of our sins, so that we can return to the presence of God. The Gospel of Jesus Christ can be summed up nicely by this one scripture.

For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified; (Moses 6:60)

By the water we keep the commandments -

This is a reference to the covenant we make at baptism to keep the commandments of God the remainder of our lives. Baptism itself being a commanment of God.

By the Spirit we are justified -

This is a reference to the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is preceded by faith in Jesus Christ, sincere repentance, and baptism by immersion. We are justified by the Spirit at this point, meaning we receive a remission of our former sins, and are born again as children of Christ.

By the blood we are sanctified -

In addition to the need to continue in faith and repentance, relying on the merits of Christ, this is a reference to the ordinances of the Temple. In ancient Israel, temple ordinances were temporal, and involved sacrifice by the shedding of blood. These rituals and ordinances were symbolic, and taught about the coming of the Messiah and the Atonement. The Atonement of Jesus Christ was in fulfilment of these ancient temple rites, and put an end to sacrifice by the shedding of blood. The Atonement was the great last sacrifice, performed by the Lamb of God.

We are sanctified, and eventually pronounces clean of our sins, as we receive the necessary ordinances and make sacred covenants in the temple of our day. In the temple we learn the meaning of life, the fall of Adam and Eve, and the way to salvation. We learn about the kingdom of God, and many other things prepratory to our returning to the presence of God. As we make these covenants, and keep them, we learn the way of salvation, and can become clean.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ makes it possible for us to repent and become clean. That is what the prophets have taught since Adam. One of our articles of faith teaches this principle well -

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (Articles of Faith)

Here's from the Revelation of John:

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (Rev. 7:13-17)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Thank you Vanhin, I needed that reminder. I really need to just avoid these types of threads.

Me too. I need the reminder myself from time to time. :)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[WillowTheWhisp]

Acts 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

ABSOLUTELY! This is pure LDS doctrine. Our church is named "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" after all. It is through him that we pray to our Father and through his atonement that we come to our Father. :)

To summarize, sanctification is the same Greek word as holiness, “hagios,” meaning a separation. First, a once-for-all positional separation unto Christ at our salvation. Second, a practical progressive holiness in a believer’s life while awaiting the return of Christ. Third, we will be changed into His perfect likeness—holy, sanctified, and completely separated from the presence of evil.

Oh yes I totally agree. We will changed into the perfect likeness of Christ - 'be ye therefore perfect even as my Father which is in Heaven is perfect' - we can only become perfect through him. We are commanded to become perfect but all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Without a Saviour we can't make it. We accept this. We repent of our sins, we accept forgiveness. We attempt to sin no more, but we are human and we fail in that so again we come to him in prayer and in sorrow for our sin and again he forgives and pardons us. Only if we do not come to him do we cut ourselves off from salvation.

I wouldn't be so arrogant as to claim that I am saved, that my salvation is sure and certain. I hope that I will always try to do the right things and repent of any wrong things but I know I am human and weak so I know I will always need the help of the Holy Ghost and the continuing blessing of repentance and forgiveness. That doesn't mean we give up trying to do right, just that we know we are liable to failure because we are human.

[lostnfound]

Willow and others..

How good do you believe you have to be to earn your salvation? or to earn the highest level in Heaven.

[Vanhin]

Ask Jesus Christ. :)

Willow and others..

How good do you believe you have to be to earn your salvation?

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:20)

or to earn the highest level in Heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:20)

No one can be saved in their sins, for no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.

Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time. (Moses 6:57)

Regards,

Vanhin

[lostnfound]

Ask Jesus Christ. :)

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:20)

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:20)

No one can be saved in their sins, for no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.

Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time. (Moses 6:57)

Regards,

Vanhin

So would you say you have to be perfect?

[Vanhin]

So would you say you have to be perfect?

Well yes, but I can't take credit for that concept. I'll have to defer you to the teachings of my Master again:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matt. 5:48)

Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect. (3 Ne. 12:48)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Jenamarie]

So would you say you have to be perfect?

It's not a matter of how good we are, it's a matter of how *repentant* we are. We'll all fall short of perfection, but through Christ's Atonement we can be made clean again, if we repent. Again and again and again, He will make us clean!! And when He forgives us of our sins, then we are perfect, for His Mercy is sufficient. Though our sins be as scarlet, He will make them white as snow.

So, yes, we have to be Perfect, and it is only through the Grace of Our Lord and Savior that that is even remotely possible.

[lostnfound]

Well yes, but I can't take credit for that concept. I'll have to defer you to the teachings of my Master again:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matt. 5:48)

Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect. (3 Ne. 12:48)

" Therefore no one will be declared righteous (perfect) in his sight by observing the law. . ." (Romans 3:20)

" For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10)

Regards,

Vanhin

sooo. my question is because under lds teaching you just keep repenting..keep on admitting to all the wrong doings. I would be repenting every hour and every day if I was still under the law, you will never achieve celestial heaven!??!! You will never achieve perfection even with repentance. what happens if you die before you have the chance to repent that day? The bible says the wages of sin is death. That is why christ died to pay that penality so that you and I would not be under the Law. LDS teaching in this area is so much like all other reglions..repenting, working, hoping that they have achieved all that they are supposed to do in this life..do you find this exhausting?

[lostnfound]

" Therefore no one will be declared righteous (perfect) in his sight by observing the law. . ." (Romans 3:20)

" For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10)

[Vanhin]

sooo. my question is because under lds teaching you just keep repenting..keep on admitting to all the wrong doings. I would be repenting every hour and every day if I was still under the law, you will never achieve celestial heaven!??!! You will never achieve perfection even with repentance. what happens if you die before you have the chance to repent that day? The bible says the wages of sin is death. That is why christ died to pay that penality so that you and I would not be under the Law. LDS teaching in this area is so much like all other reglions..repenting, working, hoping that they have achieved all that they are supposed to do in this life..do you find this exhausting?

Well I'm not the one who said it. I quoted the Redeemer's words.

You have to ignore the whole of the scriptures, including the words of the Savior, who taught that we must keep the commandments, to come to the understanding you have. Which is fine. You are more than welcome to believe that way.

We believe we must have faith in Jesus Christ, and in His Atonement, repent of our sins, be baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end, not becuase it sounds good, but because that is what Jesus and his Apostles, and all the prophets have taught.

Kind Regards,

Vanhin

[WillowTheWhisp]

sooo. my question is because under lds teaching you just keep repenting..keep on admitting to all the wrong doings. I would be repenting every hour and every day if I was still under the law, you will never achieve celestial heaven!??!! You will never achieve perfection even with repentance. what happens if you die before you have the chance to repent that day? The bible says the wages of sin is death. That is why christ died to pay that penality so that you and I would not be under the Law. LDS teaching in this area is so much like all other reglions..repenting, working, hoping that they have achieved all that they are supposed to do in this life..do you find this exhausting?

So what do you do? If you sin do you just ignore the fact and carry on regardless? I cannot understand any religion teaching that there is no further need of repentance.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Willow and others..

How good do you believe you have to be to earn your salvation? or to earn the highest level in Heaven.

WE don't earn it. That is a common misinterpretation of LDS doctrine. Salvation comes through the atonement of Christ but he asks our obedience to his commandments. If we do not obey then we are throwing the gift back in his face. That way we deny ourselves the redemption.

[Misshalfway]

sooo. my question is because under lds teaching you just keep repenting..keep on admitting to all the wrong doings. I would be repenting every hour and every day if I was still under the law, you will never achieve celestial heaven!??!! You will never achieve perfection even with repentance. what happens if you die before you have the chance to repent that day? The bible says the wages of sin is death. That is why christ died to pay that penality so that you and I would not be under the Law. LDS teaching in this area is so much like all other reglions..repenting, working, hoping that they have achieved all that they are supposed to do in this life..do you find this exhausting?

I am not sure that you are fully grasping what we believe. No one can become perfect by obeying the law. We are fallen; human and sinful. We cannot return to the presence of God without the Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. We can become perfect .... but ONLY thru Jesus. We often refer to this as "perfect in Christ". Obedience is part of the conditions of repentance. Repentance is part of the gospel. And according to our understanding of the Bible, Repentance is very much part of the teachings of the Savior.

Our scriptures teach balance. Our doctrine teaches us to rely on the arm of the Lord. Being perfect is not a prerequisite for salvation, it is the end result of it.

One can become very tired, if they fail to realize the Atonement and the role of works and grace and how they all work together to bring the soul of man into harmony with the will of God. One who is truly converted, has been born again, and is living in obedience to laws and ordinances, isn't tired from trying to reach the unreachable. They are tired because they waste and wearout their lives in the service of God.

It sounds like you believe that because of the Lord's sacrifice, that believers are no longer subject to the law. This is something that is not what LDS people teach. We don't believe anyone, God included, is above the law. We believe that the Atonement brings us into agreement with the law. For example... "No unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God." Eternal Law. No one can change that. But thru Christ's blood we are made clean and can then enter. Christ doesn't take us above the law and let unclean things into heaven. He helps us obey the law, and then we can enter.

[lostnfound]

Well I'm not the one who said it. I quoted the Redeemer's words.

You have to ignore the whole of the scriptures, including the words of the Savior, who taught that we must keep the commandments, to come to the understanding you have. Which is fine. You are more than welcome to believe that way.

We believe we must have faith in Jesus Christ, and in His Atonement, repent of our sins, be baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end, not becuase it sounds good, but because that is what Jesus and his Apostles, and all the prophets have taught.

Kind Regards,

Vanhin

vanhin, interesting point. I also agree with you about taking scripture verses out of context is really bad. Even christian churches do that. Looking at things in the whole of the context is important.

Matthew 5:48 says to be perfect, not become perfect. The verse is in the present tense. We are not commanded to get it right in the future but to be perfect, right now! Just like your boss telling you to “be on time” doesn’t mean to be on time a month from now, but immediately. Hebrews 10:14: “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified”. Notice the past tense. Jesus has already made those perfect who come to Him by faith, trusting in His finished work of redemption. now read Ephesians 2:8-9.