Why would I choose not to accept the gospel?

[Elphaba]

First, for those who don't know me well, I am an atheist, and while it is complicated, one of the reasons is I see no evidence of a god of any kind. This is despite my doing everything I could to gain a testimony.

(If anyone reading this is wont to tell me what I haven’t done, please don’t. I want to keep my conversation directed at my question.)

Additionally, despite people who think they know otherwise, I cannot choose to believe in a god I do not believe in. The lack of any gods is so obvious to me, I cannot force myself to believe otherwise.

I was raised in the Church, and was active until I was 25, at which point I had my name removed. I have a fairly good grasp of LDS doctrine, except for the teachings learned in the temple.

So here is what I do not understand:

Even though I am an atheist, if I were to die and end up in a supernatural “prison,” which if I remember correctly is not as dire as it sounds, and the gospel was being taught to me by exalted beings, why would I then choose not to accept it? After all, I would now have hard evidence there was a God and the LDS doctrines were true.

Additionally, if I remember correctly, I will have the opportunity to see Christ in person. And I guarantee you, if Christ were standing before me in heaven, then I would know He is the Christ, that the gospel is true, and would choose to accept it.

Why would I not? Why would anyone not?

Who would ever choose not to accept the LDS gospel in these circumstances?

Elphaba

[prisonchaplain]

When I see someone like you, who is obviously thoughtful, authentic, and full of heart, who wants to believe (be it in Christianity, LDS, or just God generally), but just can't see it, my heart aches. I'm thankful that God sees all, and is just. My hope is that you will come see God...that He will be revealed to you, and that your reward for tarrying will be great. Could it be that the good work of persistent seeking is as great as the reward that comes to those who've always known?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I'm not sure you will have the opportunity to see Christ in person in the spirit world. All I'm aware of having been told is that people who have not had the opportunity to accept the gospel here on earth will have the opportunity in the spirit world.

Now there are plenty of people here on earth who believe in a spirit world but do not believe in God or Jesus Christ. Some believe in God but not in Jesus Christ. If they are preached to in the spirit world by the spirits of those who do believe in Christ I can see them rejecting it just as much as they reject it now. They will only have evidence of life after death, the rest will still be a faith thing. They will still be able to think that their version is correct and maybe think the preachers are misguided.

I hope you can follow that. I'm finding it difficult to put into words.

[Teancum18]

Willow is right when she says that those who had the chance to hear the gospel in this life, and refused to, will not have the opportunity in the spirit world. So in a way. that's the answer to your question. Your question: why would I not accept the gospel in the spirit world? Answer: you will not have the opportunity to. Sorry, but it's true.

Here is the clarification regarding who you will see in the spirit world. The Book of Mormon teaches us in chapter 40 of Alma that when a person dies, their spirit is brought before the God that created them. So yes, when you die, you will see God, the Father. However, there is no doctrine or scripture saying you will see Christ. At the same time, there is nothing indicating the opposite, either. We just don't know.

[Elphaba]

I'm not sure you will have the opportunity to see Christ in person in the spirit world. All I'm aware of having been told is that people who have not had the opportunity to accept the gospel here on earth will have the opportunity in the spirit world.

Hi Willow,

I did some reading and you are correct. Christ will not visit the spirit prison as I thought.

It's late, so I will respond to the rest of your post tomorrow. You have indeed given me food for thought.

Elphaba

[drjme]

I think it is different if you have never received a witness of it's truth. If you have studied your little heart out, continue to read and learn about Christ in openness and honesty and with a pure heart, but have never received The response from the Holy Ghost to let you know it is true (Because that is the ONLY way that you can no without any doubt that it is true) will you be condemned for that? I wouldn't think so.

Additionally, if I remember correctly, I will have the opportunity to see Christ in person. And I guarantee you, if Christ were standing before me in heaven, then I would know He is the Christ, that the gospel is true, and would choose to accept it.

People saw Him in person and didn't believe, and they knew the prophecies, and were waiting for Him. They didn't even recognize him standing in front of them in the flesh. We have what we need to draw close to him here and now, You would take your intelligence you now have 'through the veil', why would your thoughts change?

I can imagine there being preachers of all different sorts on that side too, all with their own interpretations, still preaching the word of God as they see it. You probably would still have to choose between them on that side as well!

The difference I suppose from my perspective is: if you are denying it's true based on receiving no Answer, or if you are still waiting for an answer with an open heart(not denying it, just not knowing yet). Because who knows when it will come. I think if your heart is right, your witness could come on the otherside, just like all the other spirits who can choose to accept or reject it in 'prison'.

Because 'hearing' or 'knowing' the Gospel is not what necessarily confirms it's truth, It is that awesome witness from the Holy Ghost IMHO that confirms it's true.

[Elphaba]

When I see someone like you, who is obviously thoughtful, authentic, and full of heart, who wants to believe (be it in Christianity, LDS, or just God generally), but just can't see it, my heart aches. I'm thankful that God sees all, and is just. My hope is that you will come see God...that He will be revealed to you, and that your reward for tarrying will be great. Could it be that the good work of persistent seeking is as great as the reward that comes to those who've always known?

This was just lovely PC. I know your words are genuine, as you are a very good friend to me.

Thank you for the compliments. I wondered if you were actually writing to me at first, but there was no one else on the thread yet, so I figured it had to be me.

I have no idea what is out there, though I admit my belief is nothing, and honestly, I am okay with that.

But if I am wrong and there is more, I hope I see you there.

Elphaba

[WillowTheWhisp]

My testimony started out with an 'if' an awful long time ago. It's only small but it's a start. Maybe your 'if' will be enough for you not to be cut off - and if you don't want to be then maybe that's the next step up from an 'if'.

[japacific]

I used to know it the mormon church, now I know it's not true.

[PapilioMemnon]

Elphaba,

Thanks for being so open and sharing your thoughts and feelings, and letting us learn from you and get to "know you." I echo PC's words, and hope that you will come to know there's a God and He is mindful of you, and loves you.

I would like to share something with you and would hope that you would try it, but if not or you have it, keep it mind anyway. I have learned that even if I have tried things before, when I do it again, it just becomes better, clearer using repetition, being persistent in learning something.

In the BOM, Alma 32, he teaches us about Faith, which is an essential principle we must have in order to receive any answer, testimony, etc. He compares it to a seed, that one must plant it and take care of it, even if you only have the desire to believe, he asks us to test it.

Alma 32

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

Faith is the first principle of the gospel because nothing can be done without it.

I remember the words of a father who brought his child to Jesus to be cured, and Jesus said if he believed, all things were possible.

Mark 9

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

I know there's is a God, and He knows you and your situation and struggles, and loves you no matter what. I know He can do for you as much as Christ did it for the father of that child; He can help your unbelief because nothing is impossible to Him who created all things!

"Who would ever choose not to accept the LDS gospel in these circumstances?"

We will be the "same" person we are here now, i.e., same beliefs whatever they are. Many people have seen angels, witnessed miracles, like the brothers of Nephi and many others, and those things didn't change them. The chance to accept the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ in the after life is only for those who did not hear it when they were alive; it doesn't apply to any of us who have heard it.

I hear you and my heart goes out to you as I read your words... Thanks again for sharing your life with all of us.

[Hemidakota]

First, for those who don't know me well, I am an atheist, and while it is complicated, one of the reasons is I see no evidence of a god of any kind. This is despite my doing everything I could to gain a testimony.

(If anyone reading this is wont to tell me what I haven’t done, please don’t. I want to keep my conversation directed at my question.)

Additionally, despite people who think they know otherwise, I cannot choose to believe in a god I do not believe in. The lack of any gods is so obvious to me, I cannot force myself to believe otherwise.

I was raised in the Church, and was active until I was 25, at which point I had my name removed. I have a fairly good grasp of LDS doctrine, except for the teachings learned in the temple.

So here is what I do not understand:

Even though I am an atheist, if I were to die and end up in a supernatural “prison,” which if I remember correctly is not as dire as it sounds, and the gospel was being taught to me by exalted beings, why would I then choose not to accept it? After all, I would now have hard evidence there was a God and the LDS doctrines were true.

Additionally, if I remember correctly, I will have the opportunity to see Christ in person. And I guarantee you, if Christ were standing before me in heaven, then I would know He is the Christ, that the gospel is true, and would choose to accept it.

Why would I not? Why would anyone not?

Who would ever choose not to accept the LDS gospel in these circumstances?

Elphaba

You would not accept it easily here as it would be there. Missionaries are assigned by those of the Celestial order, to minister to those who had not heard the gospel. They will be given a greater opportunity over those who had the opportunity within mortality and thus rejected the word. However, those who rejected the gospel in this life will hear it also but on a different note.

So in the end, eventually, you will receive the word and be given a choice. Yes, most of those who rejected the gospel in this life, will accept it base on two choices. Just as it was for those who entered into mortality when they had the opportunity to accept the Plan of GOD over Lucifer on the second opportunity. Just a note, you will be happy with the glory of those who are of the same caliber. Also, you most likely not know if Christ stood before you. This comes by the Holy Spirit and through the Terrestrial order.

Now my dear sister, given the opportunity in this life, I would go with the greater glory and leave behind our worldly hurt and pain. "Why would an Eagle who can soar, peck in the dirt with the Chickens?":D

[NeuroTypical]

Even though I am an atheist, if I were to die and end up in a supernatural “prison,” ... and the gospel was being taught to me by exalted beings, why would I then choose not to accept it?

Pride, anger, misplaced guilt, fear, and any other reason that keeps people from doing the right thing here on earth.

I've got my fingers crossed that you won't have any of this on the other side. Or if you do, here's hoping you'll eventually choose to let go of them.

LM

(please hope the same for me)

[Hemidakota]

We do carry our character traits with us.

[Jenamarie]

We do carry our character traits with us.

Exactly. I'm reminded of the dwarves at the end of The Last Battle (Chronicals of Narnia) who decided while in mortal life that they didn't need Aslan (C.S. Lewis's type for Christ) and had the motto "All dwarves for themselves!" Even when they were literally *surrounded* by Heaven, and face to face with Aslan, they did not see him. They saw what they'd convinced themselves was the only "real" thing, which was the shed they'd been sitting in when the world ended. They described in detail the dampness of the shed, the scanty light, the dryness of the bread they had to eat, all the while being surrounded by lush grass, brilliant sunlight, and thousands of people shouting for joy that they had fought the good fight and jonied Aslan in his land.

If you've cut yourself off from the witness of the Spirit in this life, I don't believe it's going to be suddenly easier to accept it in the next. And being in Spirit prison won't automatically "prove" the LDS faith either, IMO. There are lots of other faiths that teach about an "inbetween" world where you go to await reincarnation. I wonder if people of those faiths, finding themselves in Spirit Prison, will assume that that's where they are, and still be unwilling to listen to the missionaries, and perhaps try to work against them and "preach" their own religion. I wonder if the Gospel Missionaries will be the only "missionaries" there... (but this is complete speculation on my part, please do not take this as official church doctrine)

[Hemidakota]

I do see your 'eyes' are indeed open to heavenly wisdom.

[Hemidakota]

Some food for thought:

Richard L. Evans observed that:

Our Father in heaven is not an umpire who is trying to count us out. He is not a competitor who is trying to outsmart us. He is not a prosecutor who is trying to convict us. He is a Loving Father who wants our happiness and eternal progress and everlasting opportunity and glorious accomplishment, and who will help us all he can if we will but give him, in our lives, the opportunity to do so with obedience and humility and faith and patience (Conference Report, October 1956, p.101).

So God has given us a reliable barometer for our spiritual growth. How do we feel toward those who hurt and offend us? How do we act toward those whose lives are littered with foolishness? Beloved Joseph reminds us that “a man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race” ( TPJS p.174).

[WillowTheWhisp]

Jenamarie, I share your thoughts along those lines of the dwarves in The Last Battle. I think there will be people who get to the spirit world and believe that is the sum total of the afterlife. It will probably come as a bit of a shock to them when they get their resurrected body! I also think they will probably preach against the Gospel and try to convince others that their interpretation must be right because being there in the spirit world without a body 'proves' it.

[EruditioSalvatus]

Personally, I think if one were not hold a specific precept about gods and afterlives, gets to another side and is presented with literal evidence, and finally decides to shrug it off then there is serious damage being done.

Many studies have shown that a lot of people are religious "just in case" it is true.

If anyone goes to another side and has been lying to themselves about what they believe, for a "just in case sake," it would be far more damaging than truly trying to seek personal enlightenment and not finding it. Perhaps, if there are gods and afterlives, the reason some of us simply cannot see the "big picture" is because we're not supposed to. Every experiment and test needs a control group to rate progress.

Just as some rats are given placebos instead of cancer medicine, plants are kept in sunlight instead of dark rooms, and scientists examine both untreated water and chemical treated samples, there's nothing to say that some humans are kept cut off from divine experience. It may seem cruel in a religious sense, but these people help facilitate other's divine experiences by questioning, unbiasedly studying, and, unfortunately, attacking faiths. Imagine how hard it would be to get several religions to compromise on a topic if there were no neutral arbiters.

In most religions their respective gods say 'all shall be revealed' maybe such revelation comes at different times for different people

[Hemidakota]

The reason why they cannot see beyond their own nose, [centric] desire to know. For many, not important when the world and all its meaningless glories, fills that spot.

[DigitalShadow]

I would wager a guess that the majority (maybe not vast majority, but still over 50%) of people in any specific religion have those beliefs either "just in case" they are right or because it is a part of their culture and they were raised that way.

Kudos to the people who take the time to examine their own beliefs, atheist and theist alike. I find it hard to believe that a just God would judge someone who honestly sought His word to no avail more harshly than one who happened to be raised in the "correct" religion and never bothered to examine it.

That's just my 2 cents though.

[Guest tomk]

I would wager a guess that the majority (maybe not vast majority, but still over 50%) of people in any specific religion have those beliefs either "just in case" they are right or because it is a part of their culture and they were raised that way.

Kudos to the people who take the time to examine their own beliefs, atheist and theist alike. I find it hard to believe that a just God would judge someone who honestly sought His word to no avail more harshly than one who happened to be raised in the "correct" religion and never bothered to examine it.

That's just my 2 cents though.

You make a good point.

Only God can judge our hearts. Which is a problem on these forums when we try to "judge" what is in the heart of a particular poster. I know that I have been guilty of "judging unrighteously" a few times, including with you DS.

We just need to make sure that we "know" we did not have the witness during our lifetime. We need to make sure we didn't refuse to seek it. We can say we sought it earnestly and not be completely truthful in that.

Thank goodness God will be the one judging that.

[Canuck Mormon]

Only God can judge our hearts.

This is why I don't think it will be a problem for you Elphaba & DigitalShadow. You both have sought for answers and desire for an answer, but have yet to recieve it. We'll see you on the other side.:)

[Moksha]

Who would ever choose not to accept the LDS gospel in these circumstances?

Elphaba

I remember asking my Gospel Essentials teacher that same question. His answer was "some just wouldn't", but he did not elaborate further. Perhaps he had heard this before but had not thought it through.

Unless one was contrary to the core, even in matters of self interest or was an obsessive ideologue who couldn't stand to be wrong, I think everyone else would embrace the obvious.

So Elf, do you embrace any higher meanings or purposes to life or the Universe?

BTW, good topic. :)

[prisonchaplain]

I used to know it the mormon church, now I know it's not true.

Have you find what really is true, then? I'm curious because often those who leave a faith do not embrace any other.

[skippy740]

Alma 22:16-18