Jamie123

IMO, unless one is a judge in Israel, one cannot make that decision about another person.  We can know what is true from studying the scriptures and words of modern prophets.  We can testify of the truth.  We can treat all of our brothers and sisters with the kind of love the Savior teaches us to show (or try to), without condoning sinful behavior.  But determination of apostasy belongs to those with keys.
It seems to me that this woman's comments reflect a lack of understanding of the complex interaction between several principles and she's been deceived into believing her reaction is the only way a loving person could respond to those who are suffering in relation to this issue.  This is one of Satan's greatest tricks - to present us with a false, only-2-options choice where one way is obviously evil and the other appears good but is really just another form of evil.  The apparent difference between the two "options", and the fervor around the issue prevent many from seeing that there are other options, and so they pick the one which appears good, not realizing that what they're picking is just as evil as the other.

Not these days. I started voting Labour back in the 1990s, when Blair seemed a welcome change from John Major and the sagging remnants of the Thatcher administration (which itself had seemed so vibrant a decade before). I finally lost patience with Labour during the Gordon Brown years, when it was: "Let's ban everything we don't like the sound of, because it will make the world so much safer (say's us)!" Cameron doesn't seem to be so much of an improvement either so...eugh. The trouble with all these people is they're all politicians.

Shakespeare didn't think so:
The evil that men do lives after them;  the good is oft interred with their bones (Julius Caesar, Act III, Scene II, lines 1619-20).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T17VzztS60M
RIP Mel Smith - a very, very funny man. (He was wonderful as the torturer in The Princess Bride!)

I always think of what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:

I've read some theories about this that make it sound like something very noble. For example: "Paul felt guilty about people he couldn't reach with his message." But I think it more likely that Paul had some very ignoble sin in his life that he was constantly tempted towards, and sometimes (perhaps) he indulged in and had to go through lengthy repentance. This would have flown in the face of his message and made him feel a fraud a lot of the time, but it would also certainly have kept his feet on the ground.
I like it that Paul shies away from specifics: it allows us to apply his experience to our own disgusting and embarrassing secrets. Whatever the thorn in our own flesh might be, we can see ourselves in Paul and take hope from what he says.

I always think of what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:

I've read some theories about this that make it sound like something very noble. For example: "Paul felt guilty about people he couldn't reach with his message." But I think it more likely that Paul had some very ignoble sin in his life that he was constantly tempted towards, and sometimes (perhaps) he indulged in and had to go through lengthy repentance. This would have flown in the face of his message and made him feel a fraud a lot of the time, but it would also certainly have kept his feet on the ground.
I like it that Paul shies away from specifics: it allows us to apply his experience to our own disgusting and embarrassing secrets. Whatever the thorn in our own flesh might be, we can see ourselves in Paul and take hope from what he says.

This is a little insight to the mind and heart of the Traveler more than a condemnation of others.  As a youth I loved church and enjoyed the spirit of the saints (still do) – but I often found the pace of instruction very boring (too slow).   Often my thoughts were (and still are) somewhere else – not necessarily with worldly things – just other things.   My teachers; realizing I was somewhere else would often ask me a question to get me back inline.  I learned that if I answered – Jesus Christ – I answered correctly, at least as often as if I was intently listening and involved.

This is what I mean with what I call the Sunday school answer.  The answer at the surface is correct and 100% true – but does not reflect the understanding of the depth of the question often being asked.  Trying to go beyond the surface of Sunday school answers often creates ire and accusations of heresy.  Thinking often involves some speculation – and speculation by many is considered evil.  To be honest, often I enter discussions on this very forum (as well as in other places) not because I actually disagree but because I see some hope in expanding the thinking (especially pondering or ponderizing spiritual possibilities). 

Sometime I agree with what a person is saying but I want to push them a bit to explore and learn.  Sometimes I push the limits because I wonder if there is more and something I have missed or failed to consider.  I most appreciate those who have opinions and come to conclusions different than mine – and I love to explore why.  But I have found that most are not comfortable enough with their opinions and thoughts to have then challenged or explored in detail.  In so doing I create anger and resentment and often do not even realize it.  In my social circles my beloved wife is quick to reprove me – but she is never present on this forum. 

So I apologize.  This may seem like a hollow apology because I may be unaware of the actual offense.   Though I believe those of this forum to be capable of much better than the “Sunday school” answers – I do not intend to create anger by my challenges.  But I also believe that being shaken a little and even being a little upset is worth the journey that must be endlessly traveled on the pathway to truth and understanding.   

 
The Traveler

Sometimes we stumble over the right words to describe folk here, like myself--non-LDS Christians.  "Traditional Christians" seems to be a mostly acceptable label.  At least it has been.  Now, I wonder.  After all, what could be more "traditional" than The Church of England (Anglican)?  Yet, it appears some rogue congregations have decided to be anything but . . .
http://www.christianpost.com/buzzvine/mainline-church-bars-jesus-words-for-being-too-exclusive-patriarchal-163609/
We've often said here that it is wrong to declare self-identified Christians to not be so.  Okay, I won't do that ... but these folks are pushing it!  :-)
 

Two things I have in common with a lot of Mormons which not many other people share with me:
An obsession with the minutiae of Tolkien's Middle-earth A love of "Rush" I always wonder why I feel at home here :)

Two things I have in common with a lot of Mormons which not many other people share with me:
An obsession with the minutiae of Tolkien's Middle-earth A love of "Rush" I always wonder why I feel at home here :)

And that's why I am of the opinion that dating is silly.
Have tons of friends!  Get to know all of them.  At the same time.  Be close to them.  Do stuff with them.  The person that you'll want to marry will bubble up to the top and want to marry you too!  Then you haven't wasted your time getting to know only one person that is a dud while all the others stay at five arms length because you're now "taken".
The only difference between dating and close friends is that the date can french kiss you.  In my opinion, that's just asking for trouble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T17VzztS60M
RIP Mel Smith - a very, very funny man. (He was wonderful as the torturer in The Princess Bride!)

I've known people who seem super-spiritual, go on about how close they are to God (though oddly they eschew words like "spiritual" and "religious") and are constantly ready to point out the faults in your life, and how if only you did as they did you would be so much better, happier, closer to God, just like they are etc...etc...etc. And yet when you point out faults in their lives immediately go on the defensive and claim you are not qualified to criticize them, you don't know what it's like to be them, you are not taking them seriously, etc...etc.
If (like me) you are spiritually and emotionally immature and pathologically unsure of yourself, then they'll lead you a merry dance, building you up with assurances and knocking you down the moment you start to see through their disguise. It is definitely a form of bullying. But after a while you start to see these people for what they are, and how you own attempts to follow them have actually been a form of idolatry. It's like I said before about "heroes": remember from the start that they have feet of clay, and if they get angry or start "boo-hooing" when you point this out, either stand your ground or walk away.

It's like Charles Wesley said:
Rejoice in glorious hope! Jesus the Judge shall come,
And take His servants up to their eternal home.
We soon shall hear th’archangel’s voice;
The Trump of God shall sound, rejoice!
It's all coming true!

It's hard to imagine, but writing is a skill unto itself and not directly related to intelligence. Lots of very smart people can't write their way out of a wet paper bag. Politics are important. It is worth your while to learn how to say things such that others don't get offended. If you don't develop this gift and instead choose to focus on being honest and very precise, prepare yourself for a lifetime of being viciously misinterpreted. (Feel free to complain about it, if you like, but it won't do you any good.) Many people are wonderful under the right conditions. Seriously, it's like being in the presence of God. Under the wrong conditions, everyone is a jerk. No exceptions. The only question is how big a jerk they are. Sometimes, you should be grateful that someone is only being a little bit of a jerk. No job is often preferable to a miserable job, but nothing beats a good job.

Thanks. I needed to hear this!

Randall Munroe is a funny guy. This is a flowchart of how to tell what year your undated world map is. Brilliant, as usual, and I enjoyed this part.

A couple of years ago I was in one of our school PC labs and there was a bunch of students gathered round one of the computers. There were wisps of what seemed to be smoke rising over them so I naturally thought the monitor was on fire. I rushed over to them.
Me: There is smoke coming off that monitor! Turn it off! Now!
(Students look at me as though I am mad.)
Me: I SAW smoke! Turn this monitor off!
Student: (mumbling) It's an e-cigarette. (Opens his bag a couple of inches, giving me a very brief glimpse of something, though I have no idea what.)
Me: What? (I had then never heard of an "e-cigarette")
(Students now go back to discussing to the program they're working on and start to ignore me.)
Me: What the heck is going on here!!??
Student: (annoyed at the continued interruption) It's just an e-cigarette! (Gives me a slightly better look at it this time.)
Me: Someone please tell me what is going on!!
(Students are now ignoring me completely. I am extremely vexed. I go to fetch the lab superintendent.)
Superintendent: Dr. (my surname) tells me there is smoke coming out of this monitor!
Student: It's just an e-cigarette!
I can't remember exactly how it ended, though I think there was eventually a ban on e-cigarettes in the lab. That sounds like a no-brainer nowadays, but e-cigarettes were so new back then that no one had ever thought of having a special rule forbidding them.
But I am still shocked at how casually it was all taken. I daresay e-cigarettes are no more dangerous in the PC lab than they are anywhere else, but for anyone who (like me) started their career as an engineer, the sight of anything resembling smoke rising over any piece of electrical equipment is like a red rag to a bull! (Except possibly when it is disconnected and there is soldering going on - which there never was in that lab.)

Missionary work! For sure!

A couple of years ago I was in one of our school PC labs and there was a bunch of students gathered round one of the computers. There were wisps of what seemed to be smoke rising over them so I naturally thought the monitor was on fire. I rushed over to them.
Me: There is smoke coming off that monitor! Turn it off! Now!
(Students look at me as though I am mad.)
Me: I SAW smoke! Turn this monitor off!
Student: (mumbling) It's an e-cigarette. (Opens his bag a couple of inches, giving me a very brief glimpse of something, though I have no idea what.)
Me: What? (I had then never heard of an "e-cigarette")
(Students now go back to discussing to the program they're working on and start to ignore me.)
Me: What the heck is going on here!!??
Student: (annoyed at the continued interruption) It's just an e-cigarette! (Gives me a slightly better look at it this time.)
Me: Someone please tell me what is going on!!
(Students are now ignoring me completely. I am extremely vexed. I go to fetch the lab superintendent.)
Superintendent: Dr. (my surname) tells me there is smoke coming out of this monitor!
Student: It's just an e-cigarette!
I can't remember exactly how it ended, though I think there was eventually a ban on e-cigarettes in the lab. That sounds like a no-brainer nowadays, but e-cigarettes were so new back then that no one had ever thought of having a special rule forbidding them.
But I am still shocked at how casually it was all taken. I daresay e-cigarettes are no more dangerous in the PC lab than they are anywhere else, but for anyone who (like me) started their career as an engineer, the sight of anything resembling smoke rising over any piece of electrical equipment is like a red rag to a bull! (Except possibly when it is disconnected and there is soldering going on - which there never was in that lab.)

A couple of years ago I was in one of our school PC labs and there was a bunch of students gathered round one of the computers. There were wisps of what seemed to be smoke rising over them so I naturally thought the monitor was on fire. I rushed over to them.
Me: There is smoke coming off that monitor! Turn it off! Now!
(Students look at me as though I am mad.)
Me: I SAW smoke! Turn this monitor off!
Student: (mumbling) It's an e-cigarette. (Opens his bag a couple of inches, giving me a very brief glimpse of something, though I have no idea what.)
Me: What? (I had then never heard of an "e-cigarette")
(Students now go back to discussing to the program they're working on and start to ignore me.)
Me: What the heck is going on here!!??
Student: (annoyed at the continued interruption) It's just an e-cigarette! (Gives me a slightly better look at it this time.)
Me: Someone please tell me what is going on!!
(Students are now ignoring me completely. I am extremely vexed. I go to fetch the lab superintendent.)
Superintendent: Dr. (my surname) tells me there is smoke coming out of this monitor!
Student: It's just an e-cigarette!
I can't remember exactly how it ended, though I think there was eventually a ban on e-cigarettes in the lab. That sounds like a no-brainer nowadays, but e-cigarettes were so new back then that no one had ever thought of having a special rule forbidding them.
But I am still shocked at how casually it was all taken. I daresay e-cigarettes are no more dangerous in the PC lab than they are anywhere else, but for anyone who (like me) started their career as an engineer, the sight of anything resembling smoke rising over any piece of electrical equipment is like a red rag to a bull! (Except possibly when it is disconnected and there is soldering going on - which there never was in that lab.)

A couple of years ago I was in one of our school PC labs and there was a bunch of students gathered round one of the computers. There were wisps of what seemed to be smoke rising over them so I naturally thought the monitor was on fire. I rushed over to them.
Me: There is smoke coming off that monitor! Turn it off! Now!
(Students look at me as though I am mad.)
Me: I SAW smoke! Turn this monitor off!
Student: (mumbling) It's an e-cigarette. (Opens his bag a couple of inches, giving me a very brief glimpse of something, though I have no idea what.)
Me: What? (I had then never heard of an "e-cigarette")
(Students now go back to discussing to the program they're working on and start to ignore me.)
Me: What the heck is going on here!!??
Student: (annoyed at the continued interruption) It's just an e-cigarette! (Gives me a slightly better look at it this time.)
Me: Someone please tell me what is going on!!
(Students are now ignoring me completely. I am extremely vexed. I go to fetch the lab superintendent.)
Superintendent: Dr. (my surname) tells me there is smoke coming out of this monitor!
Student: It's just an e-cigarette!
I can't remember exactly how it ended, though I think there was eventually a ban on e-cigarettes in the lab. That sounds like a no-brainer nowadays, but e-cigarettes were so new back then that no one had ever thought of having a special rule forbidding them.
But I am still shocked at how casually it was all taken. I daresay e-cigarettes are no more dangerous in the PC lab than they are anywhere else, but for anyone who (like me) started their career as an engineer, the sight of anything resembling smoke rising over any piece of electrical equipment is like a red rag to a bull! (Except possibly when it is disconnected and there is soldering going on - which there never was in that lab.)

A couple of years ago I was in one of our school PC labs and there was a bunch of students gathered round one of the computers. There were wisps of what seemed to be smoke rising over them so I naturally thought the monitor was on fire. I rushed over to them.
Me: There is smoke coming off that monitor! Turn it off! Now!
(Students look at me as though I am mad.)
Me: I SAW smoke! Turn this monitor off!
Student: (mumbling) It's an e-cigarette. (Opens his bag a couple of inches, giving me a very brief glimpse of something, though I have no idea what.)
Me: What? (I had then never heard of an "e-cigarette")
(Students now go back to discussing to the program they're working on and start to ignore me.)
Me: What the heck is going on here!!??
Student: (annoyed at the continued interruption) It's just an e-cigarette! (Gives me a slightly better look at it this time.)
Me: Someone please tell me what is going on!!
(Students are now ignoring me completely. I am extremely vexed. I go to fetch the lab superintendent.)
Superintendent: Dr. (my surname) tells me there is smoke coming out of this monitor!
Student: It's just an e-cigarette!
I can't remember exactly how it ended, though I think there was eventually a ban on e-cigarettes in the lab. That sounds like a no-brainer nowadays, but e-cigarettes were so new back then that no one had ever thought of having a special rule forbidding them.
But I am still shocked at how casually it was all taken. I daresay e-cigarettes are no more dangerous in the PC lab than they are anywhere else, but for anyone who (like me) started their career as an engineer, the sight of anything resembling smoke rising over any piece of electrical equipment is like a red rag to a bull! (Except possibly when it is disconnected and there is soldering going on - which there never was in that lab.)

Not wishing to wear out the BMW theme: "A BMW with a particularly obnoxious, impatient (and ugly) driver, stuck behind a tractor towing a specially bulky piece of farm equipment at 2mph along a very narrow country road, with no chance of overtaking for at least another mile!"
(Oh, and if the BMW's a.c. has broken, that would be the cherry on the cake!) 

Hey, just trying to give Zil what she ordered.  But for you Carb, one bottle of lightning infused Kim Chee!