carlimac

My computer screen on Deseret Book. 

1. You had pointed out that we should be wary of causing others to stumble.  I was just trying to point out that this might also cause some to rise.
2.  We can't control how others react or what they conclude.  This was simply a choir of men singing.  I refuse to stop doing what's right and being a friend to others because of how others might interpret it.
Overall, I think music is a safe way to interact with a community that exists, whether you want it to or not.  We can be civil and "break bread" together without agreeing.  

But what of the good that can come from it?  Consider a kid who's struggling with same-sex attraction and all the shame, self-loathing, etc that can go along with that, especially in those who grew up in the church.  What if he sees this and realizes that it gets better. This might just save his life, keep him from attempting/committing suicide.  
Also, I think there is a difference between providing a venue for a performance (which is what DC Temple is doing) and sponsoring or endorsing a group.  The choir formerly known as MoTab has performed with many different individuals and choirs that did not uphold the same standards or beliefs.  It's a performance, not a sermon.  

This has been a remarkable discussion/argument, at least 6 pages worth that I did not read but only skimmed because it was just too tedious and hair splitting and nit picking and incomprehensive and mind boggling.  But I thought I'd just drop this in here:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/mormon-tabernacle-choir-rehearses-with-san-francisco-gay-mens-chorus?lang=eng
And this: http://www.newnownext.com/sf-gay-mens-chorus-conductor-directs-mormon-tabernacle-choir/06/2018/
And this: https://www.deseret.com/2018/6/26/20647875/it-s-all-about-the-music-san-francisco-gay-men-s-chorus-performs-with-mormon-tabernacle-choir
The trail has already been blazed by the Tab Choir. Looks like a good time was had by all. So not to worry about church-wide apostacy and such. "It's all about the music."  Some people who self label as gay are extremely musically talented and have much to offer. For those of us who are close enough to go hear it, all we have to do is just listen with our ears and hearts and enjoy the music. The rest of you don't need to fret or even pay any attention.  I did get a giggle out of this headline from the SL Trib. https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/06/25/the-mormon-tabernacle-choir-gets-a-gay-conductor-for-a-night/  ( Anyone who stopped reading at "conductor" just may have wet themselves or had a heart attack. 😄)
 

If you are not a Christian, embracing Catholicism will bring you closer to God. Catholicism teaches good and holy principles to a much greater extent than does the practice of homosexuality. 

I would point out that congress does not need a "reason" to impeach a president.  The process is that the house determines by whatever rules or process they want to being articles of impeachment.  It is then up to the Senate to determine if the president is to be removed or not.  By law the removal of a president requires a 2/3 majority of the Senate.
Recently there have been two Presidents impeached; Nixon and Clinton.  When the impeachment was sent to the Senate for Nixon - there never was a vote because Nixon resigned.  For Clinton there never was a vote because those wishing to remove the president never had enough votes so the vote never happened.
I do not know what the Democrats are currently doing beyond holding secret hearings and leaking whatever they wish and withholding whatever they wish from the citizens.  We cannot say they are breaking any rules because they have not made any any formal charges.  I guess that they can say what they will.  If the constituents of those Democrats do not like what their representatives are doing they can elect new representatives.  If they approve they can reelect them.  We have an election coming up.  If the American people want a change or want to continue - they will have that say.
As for my personal opinion - those that align behind political parties got us into this mess and it does not appear either party looks to change anything they are currently doing.  I have lost faith that we will vote ourselves out of any problems - or if we do that it will last beyond the next election.  I agree with Will Rogers - by time congress agrees to do anything it will most likely make whatever they are fixing - worse.  During my lifetime our government has made everything it touches worse - and of course there is likely to be an exception - but that is exactly the problem - that any exception is by some stroke of unplanned chance - an exception.
 
The Traveler

This has been a remarkable discussion/argument, at least 6 pages worth that I did not read but only skimmed because it was just too tedious and hair splitting and nit picking and incomprehensive and mind boggling.  But I thought I'd just drop this in here:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/mormon-tabernacle-choir-rehearses-with-san-francisco-gay-mens-chorus?lang=eng
And this: http://www.newnownext.com/sf-gay-mens-chorus-conductor-directs-mormon-tabernacle-choir/06/2018/
And this: https://www.deseret.com/2018/6/26/20647875/it-s-all-about-the-music-san-francisco-gay-men-s-chorus-performs-with-mormon-tabernacle-choir
The trail has already been blazed by the Tab Choir. Looks like a good time was had by all. So not to worry about church-wide apostacy and such. "It's all about the music."  Some people who self label as gay are extremely musically talented and have much to offer. For those of us who are close enough to go hear it, all we have to do is just listen with our ears and hearts and enjoy the music. The rest of you don't need to fret or even pay any attention.  I did get a giggle out of this headline from the SL Trib. https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/06/25/the-mormon-tabernacle-choir-gets-a-gay-conductor-for-a-night/  ( Anyone who stopped reading at "conductor" just may have wet themselves or had a heart attack. 😄)
 

This has been a remarkable discussion/argument, at least 6 pages worth that I did not read but only skimmed because it was just too tedious and hair splitting and nit picking and incomprehensive and mind boggling.  But I thought I'd just drop this in here:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/mormon-tabernacle-choir-rehearses-with-san-francisco-gay-mens-chorus?lang=eng
And this: http://www.newnownext.com/sf-gay-mens-chorus-conductor-directs-mormon-tabernacle-choir/06/2018/
And this: https://www.deseret.com/2018/6/26/20647875/it-s-all-about-the-music-san-francisco-gay-men-s-chorus-performs-with-mormon-tabernacle-choir
The trail has already been blazed by the Tab Choir. Looks like a good time was had by all. So not to worry about church-wide apostacy and such. "It's all about the music."  Some people who self label as gay are extremely musically talented and have much to offer. For those of us who are close enough to go hear it, all we have to do is just listen with our ears and hearts and enjoy the music. The rest of you don't need to fret or even pay any attention.  I did get a giggle out of this headline from the SL Trib. https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/06/25/the-mormon-tabernacle-choir-gets-a-gay-conductor-for-a-night/  ( Anyone who stopped reading at "conductor" just may have wet themselves or had a heart attack. 😄)
 

In the first Vision God called all the existing churches wrong... and that their creeds were an abomination.  Note the word "Abomination" that is some of the strongest language the Lord has ever used against a group people.
Yet we often work with other churches.  Most people realize that working with some group or organization does not mean we agree, support and endorse them and everything they stand for.
For Christmas celebrations at temple visitors center it is common for people who do not share our faith and beliefs to be a part of the program.  They might be another religious group, maybe they are a secular group, maybe they are a family.  It does not matter what they are or what they believe.  All that really matters is if they want to come celebrate the Birth of our Savior with us.
Inviting a group of Sinners (which we all are) to come celebrate Christ with us sounds exactly like something we should be doing to me.
 

Whoa.,. this is gonna be tough... I can’t argue with @JohnsonJones anymore! 
Tacloban Mission.  That city that got wiped out by a typhoon a few years ago.  He leaves in January.

The sign is pure propaganda. We don't have signs saying "We love our adulterous brothers". We don't have signs saying "We love our pedophilic brothers and sisters".  All the sign signifies is indoctrination and propaganda that anyone who can't control their thoughts and feelings, that anyone who has unnatural proclivities should be coddled . . .except only a certain special group of individuals. It doesn't apply to anyone else . . .except a special group.
I didn't say you were selling me something. I gave you 2 options.
Figure out who you can not criticize and those are the people who hold the power.

I'm sure it is.  The supreme irony is the topic "the Church opposes anti-conversion therapy", when the entire purpose of the Church is about conversion therapy.

It's ridiculous to call out specific sins and say "we love them".  Why not have a sign that says "We love our children who are druggies", "We love our children who are bullies", "We love our children who are pregnant".
It's pandering to the emotionally weak "woke" individuals who think that the mere profaning of words makes something true. It in effect states that prior to this sign being put up, we didn't love them.  It signifies that only by bloviating meaningless words to pander to the world that we love them.
Until people wake up and realize the absolute stranglehold the LGBTQ+ velvet mafia has on people's thoughts, their ideas, and how they have suppressed the righteous desire to help people overcome their weaknesses, this junk will continue.  This group is sacrosanct-they are the new religion, with their priests, alcoyates and high priests. 
It's why the story about Katie Hill is buried. She is a priestess in the new religion and cannot be touched.  As a people we have traded the One True God for a false god.  Good luck!

Here is what I found:
1)
The church does not oppose banning conversion therapy, the mention explicitly that many forms of conversion therapy are extremely harmful and that the church does not practice such things. The following is a direct quote from the letter:
"Family Services has a longstanding and express policy against using therapies that seek to "repair," "convert," or "change" sexual orientation, such as from homosexual to heterosexual. Research demonstrates that electric shock, aversion, and other analogous therapies are both ineffective and harmful to youth who experience same-sex attraction. Those, including youth, who seek therapies that constitute sexual orientation change efforts will not receive them from FS counselors. Instead, FS counselors assist youth clients in understanding sexual orientation issues in the context of their families and social networks, their expressed religious identity, and their self-determined personal goals, including those pe1iaining to their faith. Gender identity. While many issues of gender identity are not well understood, FS counselors do not provide therapies designed to change a client' s established gender identity. FS counselors assist youth clients in understanding gender identity issues, including gender dysphoria, in the context of their families and social networks, their expressed religious identity, and their self-determined personal goals, including those pertaining to their faith. FS counselors assist young children in healthy identity exploration and development. They also help parents of young children in understanding gender identity and gender dysphoria issues experienced by their children so they can appropriately assist their children in their
identity exploration and development. Family Services supports the ability of other responsible practitioners to provide ethical treatments... "
2)
The proposed bill, as it stands, will protect youth (age 17 and younger) who experience same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria from incredibly harmful conversion therapy techniques. But it will ALSO prevent those same youth that ALSO wants to continue living the gospel as taught by the church from receiving professional help. They would be stuck receiving guidance from Bishops and parents (which we can all agree is far from ideal). The following is quoted from the letter from the LDSFS.
3)
The LDSFS has positive feelings toward the anti conversion therapy law that was proposed earlier this year. The letter says "HB 399 represents a good-faith effort to grapple with some of the fine distinctions that must be drawn. We are confident that additional discussion among stakeholders and the people' s representatives in the Legislature can produce a workable legislative solution that addresses many of the concerns raised here.
4)
The church is in favor of putting this bill through the legistlation to get it passed. The letter says "With respect, the Governor and DOPL should allow the Legislature to perform its constitutional function in this important policy matter."
5)
Lastly, here is what the church proposes the changes should be:
"If DOPL is not convinced to leave the issue of conversion therapy to the Legislature, it should amend the Proposed Rule to clarify that each of the following practices does not fall within the definition of sexual orientation or gender identity "change efforts":
* Therapies that assist a client in achieving the client's self-determined goal to modify or cease behaviors or expressions that the client determines are inconsistent with the client's values, or that are objectively dysfunctional or destructive. (ie allow therapists to assist youth in living the gospel dispite their homosexual / gender dysphoria)
* Therapies that address premarital, extramarital, irresponsible, abusive, or predatory sexual activities. (ia including discussions about the Law of Chastity in therapy sessions)
* Therapies that discuss the client' s moral or religious beliefs or practices.
* Therapies that account for the client's capacity for sexual fluidity. (ie Discussing the potentiality of a shift in their sexuality)
* Therapies that explore other psychological conditions as potential contributors to reported gender dysphoria. (ie suggesting that in some cases, they are not "born" that way)
* Therapies that account for gender fluidity in children or for the likelihood that gender confusion or dysphoria in prepubescent children will desist without the need for medical interventions, including therapies that encourage a wait-and-see approach. (ie suggesting that these feelings of gender dysphoria may just be a phase of exploration and that they will cease.
* Therapies that explore factors associated with sudden onset gender dysphoria.
* Non-coercive, age-appropriate therapies that seek to assist a client in resolving gender dysphoria without the need for medical interventions, including counseling with parents about appropriate ways to facilitate identity exploration and
development."
Ultimately, the church wants to allow the youth to decide what kind of therapy they want to pursue and not be forced down the path of living a homosexual/transgender life as pushed by the current standing of this rule.
If you want the truth, go to the source. If you want your narrative, find a website (or many) that supports it.

You cannot be serious.
You have a woman who came into Congress as the first openly bisexual woman who is in a throuple.  This throuple involves a thirty year old woman, a thirty year old man and a 22 year old young lady.  The young lady is a paid employee on the campaign staff of the 30 year old woman.  The older woman is elected to Congress.  She is on the following committees:
House Armed Service Committee,   Subcommittee on Tactical Air & Land Forces, Subcommittee on Seapower and Projection Forces
House Committee on Oversight and Reform (Vice Chair) ,Subcommittee on Environment, Subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy
House Science, Space, and Technology Committee,  Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics
Due to her position of influence she has access to classified information.  She is held up as a banner of LGBTQ+ individuals and yet she is openly having sexual relations (or put into compromising situations) with a) an EMPLOYEE!!! b) a young women.
If it were she were a straight male, this would be a massive news story, plastered all over the news about #metoo. 
But b/c she is LGBTQ+, you get comments like the above (basically amounts to a yeah, so what).
Do we have ANY morals anymore in this country?

The 1980 GC had President Kimball speaking from the Whitmer Farmhouse, where the Church was restored in the original Whitmer home.

My wife and I thought that maybe the General Conference would be broadcast from Palmyra, NY however the hotel rates in the area don't appear too extravagant at this point so probably not.
Our other thought was that maybe multiple worldwide General Conferences could be held? It will be interesting to see, but the more important matter is the Saint's spiritual preparation for the Conference. That's where President Nelson's main concern seems IMHO.

Yes, but it does make me wonder about overloading bishops.  
I'm also curious as to the changes they say will be announced during tonight's women's sessions.  

*wait*-- I haven't watch this afternoon (sick kid).    
*Jane checks website*
*Jane read quickly*
*Jane doesn't completely understand*   The fixing the budget to be the way it should be, that I get.  The renaming, that I get.  The dissolving YM presidencies.. that I don't completely get.  And I'm sure that there's something else I don't even know that I don't understand. 

I've often heard this used, to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. I'm sure it's supposed to be funny and clever. Most people probably see it as such. But my hyperliteral mind takes umbrage at the thought that, if I'm comfortable (a rarity), then I'm fair game. It's as if being comfortable is itself an evil state that deserves to be upset.
[/curmudgeon]

My initial thoughts are that:
1-It’s more a concept than a program. 
2- It’s great because it’s so unstructured and can be customized per individual.  
3- It’s going to throw some people for a loop since there is no Eagle or Medallion to work for. 
4- I wonder if the boys will feel let down without Scouts since the program is so not rigorous. If applied, there is potential for tons of personal growth but nothing to put on a resume with the same easily recognizable brand Power as Eagle Scout,

My initial thoughts are that:
1-It’s more a concept than a program. 
2- It’s great because it’s so unstructured and can be customized per individual.  
3- It’s going to throw some people for a loop since there is no Eagle or Medallion to work for. 
4- I wonder if the boys will feel let down without Scouts since the program is so not rigorous. If applied, there is potential for tons of personal growth but nothing to put on a resume with the same easily recognizable brand Power as Eagle Scout,

The problem with this therapist's approach is she can only be right in her belief if the healing power of the atonement is not real or is seriously exaggerated. In fact to say the Church's approach to helping people with same-sex attraction is actually making the problem worse is essentially saying the atonement of Jesus Christ is harmful to people. Clearly this is a case of "when they are learned they think they are wise and hearken not unto the counsels of God but set it aside supposing they know of themselves. Wherefore their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them (and their patients) not."

And perhaps that's the point.
Here are some random musings. We have made much ado about the Church membership outside the US exceeding 50% of the Church's total membership. But I'm starting to wonder if the Church's future in leadership lies largely outside the US, as well. God gave Utah to the Saints as a refuge in their darkest hour, and they in turn made the desert blossom as the rose. But true Zion is not merely a location; it's a state of spirit. Utah culture has certainly had its unique aspects, for good and for otherwise. I can only assume that whatever is virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy in that culture can and will be replicated in stakes around the world. As for the rest, that doesn't matter.
The Lord taught that a seed of corn must die before it can produce its bounty. Perhaps the insular nature of the Utah community was part of a seed of grain that had to die in order to make bigger, more important things happen. The overall beneficial effect to the Church of the 2002 Olympic Games looks pretty darn small to me. But as we know, by small things are great things brought to pass.
The essence of "liberal thought" (real liberality, not the stupidly misnamed American leftist version, so often called "progressive" without a hint of irony) is that things might be better than they are, if only we would seek for that. The essence of ""conservative thought" is that we have a good thing going here in many ways, and that only a fool would throw out the blessings we have received. The older I get, the more I feel myself pulled toward the conservative ideology. Perhaps the Spirit is leading the Lord's kingdom toward the true (not Democrap) liberal ideal. The two schools of thought need not be in conflict. In fact, it is most certain that God is both conservative and liberal, in the truthful and divine meanings of those terms. But it will require adherents of both schools to humble themselves.

There are all sorts of situations in life and even biological aberrations that could cause us to feel  traumatized, depressed and even suicidal. I think my brain would light up too if I could do all the things my “natural woman” would like to do and be told I’m not breaking a commandment. But that’s just not how life works. That goes against the way the Lord has set this world up.  I believe it’s a fantasy that LGBT folks should expect to respond to their passions and not be breaking the most fundamental of God’s laws. 
I’m sorry for the hurt that so many feel. I’m sorry they get so despondent that life doesn’t seem worth living. But here's an observation.  I have several male friends from high school who are single. I don’t know if they are gay but they are active members of the church. They have never been married and at this point (we all turned 60 this year) and chances are getting slimmer every year that they would marry if they aren't gay.  But they find joy in just life itself. One of them is the most generous, happy persons I know. He has the means to travel extensively and goes to theater and extravagant dinners often. But it’s clear that his greatest joy is in giving to others and trying to bring happiness to his friends and family. He’s gone through lots of tragedy with several brothers dying of a genetic disease. And he gets in there, rolling up his sleeves at fundraisers to find a cure. He has found some things to live for that have nothing to do with his love  life or lack thereof. . 
I appreciate that mental health workers feel so much sympathy for LGBT people who are suicidal. But maybe instead of trying so hard to coddle them as well as convince society that we have somehow betrayed them,  and let them do their thing without judgment, their patients would be better served with a plan to get the focus off their sexual orientation, off of the way they think people are oppressing them and turn it around. They could enable them to find other sources of happiness,  find service opportunities for them, find ways for them to forget about themselves. We know that true generosity and losing ourselves in the service of others lights up the brain and warms the heart in the best way.