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  1. Like
    Traveler reacted to laronius in The Law of Consecration and Stewardship   
    With the welfare system currently in place and our agency to be as generous as we want with fast offerings it seems that needs are being met and our ability to consecrate ourselves is available to us.  Though it's not officially the united order it sounds like a pretty good system. The united orders in Utah were very different than Missouri and actually varied quite a bit depending on the circumstances: urban, rural, big city, small town. Things have changed so much that I don't know that a modern united order would look much like the early ones did. Maybe we are closer than we think.
  2. Thanks
    Traveler reacted to Vort in The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?   
    I honestly don't know what "official Church doctrine" even means, besides what the scriptures teach and what the prophets have revealed. It is certainly the common and popular belief in the Church, apparently shared by our current Church president and prophet, that Eve is to be lauded for her decision to partake of the forbidden fruit.
    It is my considered opinion that we do not know what constituted "the fruit of knowledge of good and evil". We have multiple instances of prophetic insistence that it does not refer to sex. I find this interesting, because the whole setting and feel of the tale—including the explicit LDS doctrine that Eve could not conceive in the garden of Eden—point to the sexual act as the "forbidden fruit" that provides "knowledge of good and evil" and makes one "as gods [i.e. able to create life], knowing good and evil." Consider that the old Hebrew idiom "to know one's wife" refers to sex. Yet that is apparently not what the Biblical account refers to, at least in LDS understanding.
    So what does it mean? Was there a literal tree made of living wood growing in a literal garden in the land of Eden that produced a literal fruit that God commanded Adam and Eve literally not to eat? I mean, that's possible, but somehow that doesn't feel right to me. If we discount the literal tree-literal fruit idea and also discount the possibility of the forbidden fruit being sex, then what we're left with is a symbolic tale, possibly figurative, possibly parabolic, and certainly meaningful, but not immediately understandable to the modern western mind.
    At that point, our supposition and speculation and theorizing into the meaning of the story of the forbidden fruit becomes opaque. We need to depend on the Spirit to tell us what it means, which is actually a very good thing, because that's what we would have to do anyway. And what the Spirit has indicated to me and many others is that the story is meant to give us some idea of our relationship to God, that our very nature of mortality makes us somehow cursed or indebted or in some other way obligated to the Lord.
    I don't understand very well larger Christianity's condemnation of Adam and Eve as wicked people whose unspeakably awful act condemned us all to a hellish existence. Even the abbreviated Biblical account we have makes it clear that God dealt mercifully with Adam and Eve after casting them out of the land of Eden.
  3. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from MrShorty in The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?   
    It is my opinion that all questions concerning G-d's will and pleasure concerning the fall - especially among traditional Christians is quite disturbing.  Here are some reasons why:
    1. Did Satan outsmart G-d and ruin his initial plan for mankind?
    2. According to scripture; Eve (the first to partake of the fruit) said that she was beguiled.  If this is accurate then her partaking of the fruit was NOT!!! a matter of will or agency expression by Eve.  Rather it is a matter of being unprepared to make a choice of will and agency - Whose fault is that????
    3. Generally it is thought that because of the "Mistakes" of Adam and Eve (the parents of mankind) that all their children were brought to suffer through no fault of their own.  There is no honest way to mitigate any punishment applied to the children because of the transgressions of the parents.  How can this be according to the will and pleasure of G-d?  Let alone an act of agency on behalf of the children.  How can we say this is the plan of an all knowing and all powerful being - the will and pleasure of G-d to allow the children to suffer the wrongs (transgressions) of their parents?
    4. Does G-d know the future?  Why would he allow Eve to be beguiled?  Why didn't G-d warn Eve about Satan?  He warned her and Adam about the fruit of the Tree?  Now we are warned about Satan and his tricks and temptations - why was there no such warning before the fall?
    5. Why are there so many unanswered questions about the fall? 
    To me the answer to all of the above is that we are not in a condition for have all the answers - we are fallen beings and by divine design (the will and pleasure of G-d - but not just G-d but ourselves as well) must learn to live and die by faith.  The fall was necessary for the plan of G-d that we can learn faith.  What occurred was exactly as he planned it - both for Adam and Eve as well for us all as their offspring.  His plan was from the beginning to provide a Messiah to redeem us and save us from sin.  That is his will and pleasure - and it has never changed.
    The Traveler
  4. Like
    Traveler reacted to Vort in Conference October 3-4, 2020   
    If I were to openly call out racism every time I saw it, I would be accused of being a racist and lectured on how an accusation of racism can only properly be applied to white people.
  5. Thanks
    Traveler reacted to prisonchaplain in The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?   
    Perhaps both/and...even traditional Christians admit that the Fall clearly resulted in free will, and we all love the promise of Genesis 3:15--that Jesus would crush Satan's head. This first messianic promise comes as a result of the Fall--it is part of God's "punishment." On the other hand, they did lose Eden, and far too many of the progeny of Adam & Eve have chosen badly. We may differ as to whether the Fall was pre-arranged in a before-creation agreement or not, but that the Fall brought both punishments and silver linings is truth. 
  6. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from Vort in Conference October 3-4, 2020   
    I am not sure I agree, my good friend @Vort.  If the Trump-haters guy looses what we have seen over the last 4 years is only what they have discovered that does not work.  And I am not suggesting that they will try becoming more forgiving and friendly.
    The Traveler
  7. Like
    Traveler reacted to mirkwood in Conference October 3-4, 2020   
    For those who need/want help in getting going.  It isn't too late to start.
  8. Like
    Traveler reacted to Fether in The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?   
    This thought came to mind as I glanced at the title. Admittedly I haven’t ready much of this thread but here is some food for thought.
    You seem to be acting under the assumption that blessings and punishments are opposites. They are not. I would say every punishment from God is a full fledged blessing. 
    If we are being punished it is because did something that will not bring us to God. A punishment teaches us, in a temporal way, what Will destroy us spiritually.
    I think that is the main secret to the fall. It was merciful that he put Adam and Eve next to the tree of knowledge of good and evil and permitted Satan to tempt them. This let them learn in a non-permanent setting what will destroy them spiritually and what will save them.
  9. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from Vort in Conference October 3-4, 2020   
    I am not sure I agree, my good friend @Vort.  If the Trump-haters guy looses what we have seen over the last 4 years is only what they have discovered that does not work.  And I am not suggesting that they will try becoming more forgiving and friendly.
    The Traveler
  10. Like
    Traveler reacted to Scott in The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?   
    Perhaps the biggest reason is because (according to our beliefs) their bodies could now have children.
    Our belief is that we all existed before the Garden of Eden and Fall.  We call this the premortal life or pre existence.
    Adam and Eve could not have children before the Fall.
    If the Fall didn't happen, none of us could receive bodies or ever progress.
  11. Thanks
    Traveler reacted to laronius in Heavenly Parents   
    Outside the fact that we are the literal spirit children of a Heavenly Father and Mother there is actually very little that we do know. But if we want to speculate we do know that spirit is element so it's possible that our "intelligence," whatever that is, was through that divine birthing process, again whatever that is, was united with our spirit bodies. But it's all speculation because there is so much that we don't know but what we do know is sufficient.
  12. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from Godless in Presidential Debate - Tomorrow   
    I thought to respond to this part of your post.  I recently retired from manufacturing automation, robotics and artificial intelligence.   The evolution of unions and manufacturing over the last centenary has been dramatic.  Asia has been a hotbed in this evolution and has adapted much better than American industries even though ideas formulated in the USA has driven this evolution.  Two areas are rapidly evolving and advancing.  The first has become known as "lean technology" or "lean production".  The second is technological advancements.
    Without going into too much detail - unions in the USA have generally opposed lean technologies and technological advancements.  Even a sophomoric reading of your linked article places the American Steel industry as technologically inferior to global competition.   I would go a step farther in that in general most Americans are not excited about science and technology beyond video games, movies and personal trinkets (cellphones).  Beyond unions - I personally believe that the American Business model is too focused on the immediate "bottom line".
    And so I do not believe this particular presidential election is as pivotal as it is being made out to be.  We have been headed in an unstainable direction for a few decades and for the few necessary changes Trump has brought - we have seen the swamp reaction.  Sad as it seems - change; even necessary change is not popular - especially among those that put themselves first (prideful).
    The Traveler
  13. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from NeedleinA in Presidential Debate - Tomorrow   
    I think this is about the worst debate I have ever attempted to watch.  Sorry I could not stand watching most of it.  It is obvious to me that these two (I am lost for any description of either of them) are unfit to run a country that is suppose to be the flagship of the free world.  I guess the biggest disappointment to me was Trump.  I thought he had an IQ above room temperature.   I was quite sure that Biden is an idiot on stupid steroids so there was nothing new about Biden - what you see is what you get and this is not a complement by any means.
    The other disappointment was Chris Wallace.  His modus operandi seems to let anybody say anything they want and leave it up to the world to try to translate.  He was woefully unfit to run this debate.   The USA is hopelessly divided and there was nothing in this debate that gave me any hope that this election will do anything to reconcile even a single issue in the divide.   The world may not end with this election but the pandemic of stupidity certainly looks to be getting much worse.   It is obvious to me that Trump is unprepared and no match for the gadianton ridden Democratic party leadership that I had hoped would not take a tighter strangle hold on our freedoms and liberties.
    I would love to offer some hope.  I wish I could say or believe that there is some silver lining to the storm clouds I see gathering.  Churchill said that there are worse things than war and they all come from loosing one.   There have been a number of times during my life that I have been in a similar position - seeing no possible solution to circumstances and then to find out that G-d exist and has always assisted when there was no other possibility.  This is my optimism.  I have no idea how it will come about so I cannot recommend what will transpire between now and how we will get through this but I believe we will all be better for this experience.  When we get to the spirit world we can all greet each other and brag that we were Latter-day Saints that lived through this.
    The Traveler
  14. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from Vort in The Law of Consecration and Stewardship   
    As I understand - the United Order was designed to provide a platform for a community to live under the Law of Consecration and Stewardship.  Individual families are individually responsible regardless of what is happening in their community - with the exception of socialistic states.  It is my personal belief that without freedom and liberty it is impossible to live the Law of Consecration and Stewardship.  Thus I believe a people must have desire and then G-d will provide a proctor with authority.
    The Traveler
  15. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Stopping COVID   
    I was traveling between the USA and Taiwan for work during the SARS outbreak.  I never wore a mask and may have been the only one in the country without a mask (admitted sarcasm).  There was no mask mandate and I was never refused service and no one showed any concern that I did not wear a mask.  Obviously, I was recognized as American because I could not speak but a few words in Chinese. 
    So what has Taiwan done to avoid COVID?  As near as I can determine, since I have not traveled to Taiwan during the pandemic, is that they started immediately checking temperatures of everyone in public.   Even most of those that are COVID asymptomatic will have a slightly higher than normal temperature.  (there is some dispute regarding if someone without a fever will infect others.  Using Taiwan as an example - it would appear not)   For flights coming into Taiwan all on the plane are isolated until everyone has had their temperature taken.  If anyone is above normal then everyone is tested for COVID or required to quarantine for 2 weeks.  (quarantine is required when testing is unavailable).   This method of taking temperature and isolating for testing or quarantining them and anyone they have been with has been the method.
    If you do some fact checking you will discover that close to 90% of those with COVID will have a fever which is 100.4 or above.  But it is my understanding that anything over 99.5 is flagged.  There are several things that can cause a higher than normal temperature - such as being in the hot sun or heavy exercise.  If that is the case then a person can rest for 5 minutes in a cool place and drink water and their temperature will fall - unless they have a condition.
    Here is a thought - we do not need to wear a mask and we do not need to quarantine if we regularly take our temperature (daily).  But in the USA most individuals are too (dare I say stupid) to take care of themselves and those that they associate with (thinking they are the great exception) and therefore, require a mandate.  So the next step would be to cheek everyone's temperature in public.  Anyone can keep their business open by checking everyone's temperature before being allowed to do business - even gas stations could check all occupants of all cars before they are allowed to the pumps.  The same with entering any buildings or public places - like parks.  It has worked in Taiwan.  Contrary to much public opinion - what works is science, even if it cannot be explained or is politically acceptable. 
    The Traveler
  16. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from JohnsonJones in The Plan of Salvation - the Fall   
    I will take a different view - Lets begin with the initial statement - "The Plan of Salvation".  Why would it be called G-d's "Plan of Salvation"?  Anciently the word Salvation comes from the same root as "Salvage".    The very word "Salvage" has two parts.  The first part implies a state of ruin - the second part implies a "gathering" of what is of value or worth from that which is ruined and no longer of any value or worth.  
    If we consider the initial description of G-d's purpose (creation) in Genesis:
    Rather than go into multiple pages describing G-d's Plan of Salvation as introduced in Genesis - let us look at just the symbiology concerning Salvation of the Salvage planned by G-d.  The symbolism here is that light is good and darkness is not good but something different.  Shall we call it evil?  Note that G-d did not create darkness (evil).  He created Light.  But his plan all along was to divide the light from the darkness and salvage the light.
    If we follow the plan of G-d we will learn that his plan will conclude with what is called "The final Judgment".  This is the completion of dividing the light from the darkness.  
    This is not rocket science - it is not without logic.  It is very simple.  In order for there to be "Salvation" for the greatest creation of G-d, would have to be separated from evil.  The only way for G-d's creation to come into contact with evil was if there was a fall.  Without a fall there could be no salvation. (dividing light from darkness).
    The Traveler
  17. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from JohnsonJones in The Law of Consecration and Stewardship   
    Thank you - I should rephrase that - no donated funds were used.  I would also point out that donated funds are not used to subsidize GA's for being GA's.  Some may claim that it is all "church" monies - but that is a strawman argument.
    The Traveler
  18. Haha
    Traveler reacted to Carborendum in My Dog Is Trans   
    That's gotta be some kind of joke.  Tell me the guys who run really didn't believe it would be a good idea to have it re-direct to
  19. Like
    Traveler reacted to CV75 in The Law of Consecration and Stewardship   
    I think it is fair to conclude from the discussion that General Authorities do not sign over their property and are then given an assignment to be stewards over that property. These articles are also instructive and help prevent confusion, innuendo, etc.:
  20. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Who Was that Rich Man?   
    Often I tend to be blunt and show little emotion.  This is not by accident.  It has been my personal experience that ignoring logic and being emotional is a recipe for disaster.    My dear wife, who is much better in social settings often suggests that my bluntness in conversations are rude.  Enough about me.
    My father was both successful and wise which took him very quickly from relative poverty to great wealth.  He grew up during the depression in a small 3 bedroom home with 13 siblings.   He raised his children to work as he had learned to work.  He believed that when children reached the age of accountably (8) that they should earn their own money and pay for their cloths and any other non essentials - like family vacations.  We were also required to do service - we were expected to be the first to arrive and the last to leave.  If any of us complained his response was always that we would never be expected to do as much or more than him.  He had enough cash to pay for the most expensive home in our stake - but he never did.  He did not drive a new car - it was always a beater - often requiring "special" knowledge to open doors, starting, rolling up and down the windows or other things.  If I could compare my father to some historical person - I would compare him to King Benjamin. 
    It is my believe that wealth is the most likely result of living righteously (living according to covenant with G-d).  But the great temptation of wealth and riches is pride.  The kind of pride that convinces people that they "deserve" better than others.  Usually (always) this is demonstrated by "things" that can be purchased for money.  Sometimes even poor people will demonstrate such pride by thinking they deserve what belongs to others - This is also called coveting.   And so they wish that they had more money so that they could "have" what they deserve. 
    I believe it is very clear that there is no place in "Heaven" for the prideful.  Those that adorn themselves or wish to adorn or present themselves with things will have similar  difficulty getting into heaven as a full grown camel will have in passing through the eye of a needle.  Jesus even made it clear that in using wealth as an offering to the poor to be seen or respected of others - is of the same prideful cloth as those with opulent attire or things to be seen and adored by others.
    This pride of adornment has corrupted much of our entertainment and is the engine of hate that is the outgrowth of covetousness that destroyed the Nephits and is destroying the United States of America.   I find myself struggling and often reproved by others for my pride - Perhaps the greatest temptation of pride is to think we as an individual are rid of it.  Or thinking we are better than others at avoiding it.
    The Traveler
  21. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from JohnsonJones in The Law of Consecration and Stewardship   
    As a youth I knew Hugh B Brown - Hugh B Brown's daughter married the Bishop in my best friend's ward - My best friend did yard work for the Bishop and whenever Elder Brown would visit (which was often to relax by a private pool) I would help my friend with his work so we could spend time talking with Elder Brown.  On my mission I met Legrand Richards and drove him through Oregon for mission meetings.  Stephan L Richards was the father of a close friend - I never met Elder Richards other than through stories from his son. Boyd K Packer and my mother were school friends and my uncle (Father's brother) was his best friend and served with him during WWII and I use to car pool with his son to work.  Two Emeritus 70's - one is Larry Corbridge who was once my Stake President (still living) and also someone I knew in my youth - actually I knew his sister and the other is Robert L. Backman (still living and the oldest GA) that was my mission president - he performed my wife's and my temple marriage - myself and a few other missionaries were planning a birthday party for him earlier this year when we had to cancel because of COVID.
    The Traveler
  22. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from JohnsonJones in The Law of Consecration and Stewardship   
    The only source I have is through personal contact.  As far as I know there is no public information.  As I stated previously the primary focus for anyone ought to be their own covenants.  If you hold a current temple recommend - it is my personal opinion that you ought to be living the law and covenant of Concentration and Stewardship.  
    This kind of reminds me of a person that asked Mozart how to write music.  Mozart replied that the person was too young and the person replied that Mozart was only 6 when he wrote his first master peace.   Mozart replied that he did not have to ask anyone how.  It is my personal opinion that if someone does not want to live the law and covenant - obviously they are not ready.  If they desire such a thing - it is most likely they are not worried about what others are doing.
    The Traveler
  23. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from JohnsonJones in The Law of Consecration and Stewardship   
    Two thoughts.  First - the general authorities that I have know personally - keep their personal lives personal.  This is not the type of item General Authorities want to brag about or make a big deal of in public.  The things from their personal lives are carefully guarded but may be referenced from time to time when it is thought to be beneficial for the Saints.  I am also aware that it is possible to be obedient and live according to the covenant of the Law of Concentration and Stewardship - I am also aware of many (with emphasis on many) of the Latter-day Saints that are not general authorities that are living the according to that covenant.
    Second - The absents of evidence is not evidence of absents.  That a source is not sited does not mean that there is no one living the Law of Concentration and Stewardship.  
    This should not be a question in our hearts concerning what others are doing.  The question before us all - is what is the desire of our hearts.
    The Traveler 
  24. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from Vort in The Law of Consecration and Stewardship   
    As I understand - the United Order was designed to provide a platform for a community to live under the Law of Consecration and Stewardship.  Individual families are individually responsible regardless of what is happening in their community - with the exception of socialistic states.  It is my personal belief that without freedom and liberty it is impossible to live the Law of Consecration and Stewardship.  Thus I believe a people must have desire and then G-d will provide a proctor with authority.
    The Traveler
  25. Like
    Traveler reacted to Scott in Stopping COVID   
    As mentioned on a thread a while ago, I had COVID19 in July and early August.  So did my wife and kids.

    The Red Cross was and is looking for people to donate plasma who have recovered from COVID19.  We were told that they are looking for people who have recovered in the past 2 1/2 months because COVID antibodies drop off significantly after that.  I would assume that would mean that they don't drop off completely, but according to them at least (and I can't think of any reason why they woundn't be telling the truth or wouldn't be knowlegable on the subject) they drop off significantly after 2 1/2 months.