problems with Joseph Smith

[fiona84]

Hi everyone,

So...my question is on behalf of my husband who is investigating the church.

He knows all about it,has had some of the discussions, goes with me to church, etc, but just hasn't (in his word) 'bought' the Jospeh Smith story.

He is very scientificly minded and views things logically.

I am a convert who had no problem 'buying' the BoM and Joseph Smith. So its hard for me to relate to to someone who needs to view it in a factual sense.

He said he is going to start researching the church more fully and then re-take the discussions (it was a few years ago he took them).

He is approaching this prayerfully (it was his idea for us to start praying together daily) as well, and there is no denying the potential magnitude of the results of his investigating.

He really likes the church....takes issue with its founding and the BoM.

So, my questions are as follows:

Any general advice?

Any good resources for him to do research?

And I suppose one fear is that his research will lead him to anti-mormon material online. I've been there, done that, and know how confusing it can be.

And I'm not even a logic/science/fact kind of person.

Thanks everyone. :)

ETA: He is aware of 'pray about it'. :) We even have kind of an ongoing banter about the 'the challenge'. I wish it were that easy for him lol.

Edited June 11, 2008 by fiona84

[Palerider]

here is a suggestion....try to find a set of DVD's by Truman Madsen......he does a series about Joseph Smith.....not sure how many cd's perhaps 3-4.....excellent lectures....

[sixpacktr]

Your husband is doing what he should: he is reading, he is praying (with you, no less), he is going to take the discussions again. There are many good resources out there, but it will be the Spirit that converts him, nothing else. Particularly since he is, as you state, more logical in his approach to things, as weird as it seems it will have to be the Spirit that convinces him. Too many will poo poo things and explain them away, which is why it is impossible to gain a 'logical' testimony.

Good luck. Happy to hear that he is trying to learn and understand.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm curious. Is your husband a Christian who is uncertain about Joseph Smith, or is he from another religion, or is he uncertain about God in general? It seems to me that he will need to proceed upon the foundation of what he is already sure of. For example, if he is uncertain about God, he might need to become convinced that there really is one true and living God, who is both all powerful and good. Only after he desires communion with the true God will he desire to find a church where he can worship the Almighty in Spirit and in truth.

[MaidservantX]

I don't know about scientific, but I think his foundation should be exploring the Church's website Joseph Smith - Home. That's my opinion, and then he can go from there. Good luck. I'm excited for him actually.

[Stone_of_Truth]

You are correct; the wrong type of "investigation" can lead to anti-material, and that is always bad. I would stay away from things like FARMS, it is good to remember to have the milk before the meet, and stuff like FARMS isn't really that "spritually nutritional".

If he wants some additional reading beyond the scriptures than the next best thing is The Missionay Library. You can get it at any LDS book store or distribution center, or online. Those have some of the best information you will ever find.

The Truman Madsen lectures are great also. Any thing on church history by Susan Easton Black is amazing. the video Joseph Smith: An American Prophet is very spiritual.

ans 'Six' is right, its the Spirit that will convert even if he is looking for a so called "logical" or "scientific" answer. Spirutal matters make sense when considered in the Spirit.

good lcuk

[fiona84]

Thanks everyone...my husband just had me read out all of your answers to him (he's cooking dinner on the other side of the room).

prisonchaplain, he said sometimes he wonders about God in general, but 'mostly just joseph smith' that he has doubts about.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

What are his doubts and why does he have them? I mean - doubting the "Joseph Smith story" is a bit vague. Try to get him to be specific; does he take issue with:

A 14 year old prophet? (What about Samuel in the OT?)

God and Christ appearing together? (Look up Stephen in Acts)

God and Christ as seperate beings vs the Trinity? ( LDS.org - Topic Definition - Godhead )

I could go on, there are dozens of specific doubts a person can have. My point is that your husband isn't going to find his answers if he doesn't ask the right questions. Once you and him know specificaly where his doubts are, you can begin to focus on resolving them.

[prisonchaplain]

prisonchaplain, he said sometimes he wonders about God in general, but 'mostly just joseph smith' that he has doubts about.

My logical and scientific mind tell me that before he can grapple with the veracity of Joseph Smith's claims, he really needs to become deeply hungry for righteousness, through God. What's the point of believing Joseph Smith is a true prophet if one is not even that passionate about the God he is supposed to represent. So, imho, a first step might be to pray that your husband would develop a deep desire to know God. Figuring who best represents him is an afterthought--again, imho.

[Moksha]

Any good resources for him to do research?

And I suppose one fear is that his research will lead him to anti-mormon material online. I've been there, done that, and know how confusing it can be.

And I'm not even a logic/science/fact kind of person.

Thanks everyone. :)

One of the weapons of sites critical to the Church is history. Unfortunately somewhere along the way, faith promoting legends got substituted for some Church history, and so when members and investigators run across the discrepancy between the two they can become disconcerted. Just know that such discrepancies exist and that you will run across them as you do research. When you have questions about this material, feel free to bring it to a forum such as this to discuss in a supportive atmosphere.

:)

[MichaelPAGuy]

So you are saying reading negative stuff can hurt one's spiritual growth in the church and hurt their testimony?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

So you are saying reading negative stuff can hurt one's spiritual growth in the church and hurt their testimony?

Unequivocally YES.

I would say that it takes a very firm testimony to be able to keep your faith when reading/hearing/viewing any of the "anti" material out there, and even then you will have doubts. Not because it's true, but because it's designed to do exactly that - to shake your testimony. And not just anti-mormon but anti-anything. None of that propaganda is shared in the spirit of love.

[Vanhin]

fiona84,

I really like some of the things prisonchaplain has said concerning belief in God. Our message to the world is the following:

1) There is a God and our spirits are his children.

2) Jesus of Nazarath is the Christ, the Son of God, and by his atonement he has overcome the effects of death for all, and the effects of sin for the faithful.

3) Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God, and through living prophets today God reveals his plan to his children as he did anciently.

4) The Book of Mormon is the word of God, and is evidence that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.

5) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church of Jesus Christ, and the only Church where the priesthood of God is found on the earth.

We assert that in order for a person to know for themselves that our message is true, and from God, God himself must reveal it to that person. The Book of Mormon plays a key role in helping individuals receive this revelation. The Book of Mormon was written by ancient prophets who saw our day, and knew our situation. It was intended as another witness of Jesus Christ and of his everlasting Gospel. By exercising faith in Christ and reading, pondering, and praying about the Book of Mormon, a person can gain a witness by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is true.

When you know the Book of Mormon is true, it follows that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, because he claims that he translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. Which means in turn that the Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ, as restored through the prophet Joseph Smith, are true as well.

I am glad to hear that he is taking this issue to heart and experimenting with faith, and prayer. That is the best thing he can do to gain an answer from God. I would encourage serious reading and pondering about the Book of Mormon as well. Make no mistake about it, there will be a trial of faith before the answer comes, but it will come to those who are true seekers of truth. It's a matter of faith. :) Praying is an act of faith, and by doing it, even if our faith in God is weak, our faith will increase. It is a wonderful process. Here is a favorite scripture of mine from the Book of Mormon for him to ponder:

And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. (Ether 12:6)

I personally testify that Jesus is the Christ. I have applied his atonement in my life and tasted of the sweetness of his gospel. I have received a remission of my sins on more than one occasion, and I know the way to retain that remission. It is through faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement, repentance, and through making and keeping sacred covenants with the Lord. I testify that the Book of Mormon is true, and it is the word of God. I have received a witness by the power of the Holy Ghost after a trial of my faith, and I now know it to be true.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[fiona84]

Good post vanhin....

I agree. Because the BoM and Joseph Smith are the parts he has a hard time accepting, I am worried that he will become all caught up in the validity of these specifics and lose sight of the overall message and get frustrated. After all, Jesus Christ is the center of the church, not Joseph Smith, and we pray to God, not Joseph Smith, so I'm worried too much of a focus on this will lead to not enough focus on faith.......

Ah, I just want to do the right thing for him.

Edited June 11, 2008 by fiona84
atrocious spelling

[Vanhin]

Good post vanhin....

I agree. Because the BoM and Joseph Smith are the parts he has a hard time accepting, I am worried that he will become all caught up in the validity of these specifics and lose sight of the overall message and get frusterated. After all, Jesus Christ is the center of the church, not Joseph Smith, and we pray to God, not Joseph Smith, so I'm worried too much of a focus on this will lead to not enough focus on faith.......

Ah, I just want to do the right thing for him and I.

I know you do, and at least from where I am sitting, it looks like you guys are on the right track. This struggle is part of that trial that the scriptures talk about. It's a trial of faith for both of you. When all is said and done, if you succeed in your trial, you will find that your own faith and testimony will be strengthened, and so will your husband's.

There have been many times in my life when I struggled for answers, when the answers seemed out of my reach. I would study the scriptures, talk to my parents, and wet my pillow with my tears at night, as I plead with God for my answers. It is usually a struggle between my wants and the will of God, or there was something in it for me to learn first before the answers were forthcoming. I have learned, however, that the answers do come, and that God is listening. He knows the desires of our hearts, and wants us to pour them out to him in prayer. He wants us to believe in him, and to be willing to do his will. When we have humbled ourselves as such, the answers come, the trial is finished, and we receive the witness that we were seeking. Though we might have waded through much sorrow during the process, our joy will be greater in magnitude than our brief period of sorrow. Alma the younger experienced this joy after repenting of his sins, and he said, "And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain! Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy." (Alma 36:20-21).

It is ok for him to be caught up in the validity of the Book of Mormon and of Joseph Smith as a prophet. These are important things for people to gain testimonies of, because the specifics of our religion, such as the Word of Wisdom and temple worship came to us by way of revelation through the prophet Joseph Smith. It is important for us to truly understand that God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ really did appear to Joseph Smith, and called him as a prophet. All the peculiar things we believe in like temple marriage, and baptisms for the death were restored by way of modern revelation, and if we have a testimony that Joseph was a prophet, we can accept his teachings as truth. However, faith in God and in Jesus Christ is prerequisite to us receiving a witness by the power of the Holy Ghost. Faith in Jesus Christ will enable us to pray with real intent, and to really believe that God will answer. Faith will lead to a desire to change, and to become better, or to humble ourselves and be prepared for the answers that are in store for us. Here's another favorite scripture of mine:

Be thou humble; and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand, and give thee answer to thy prayers. (D&C 112:10)

Tell your husband that you know there is a God and he answers prayers. :) Share with him times when your prayers were answered, and what it felt like to feel the Holy Ghost. I think it's going to be alright, sooner or later. If you guys are reading and praying together (and individually), you can't go wrong.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Traveler]

Hi everyone,

So...my question is on behalf of my husband who is investigating the church.

He knows all about it,has had some of the discussions, goes with me to church, etc, but just hasn't (in his word) 'bought' the Jospeh Smith story.

He is very scientificly minded and views things logically.

I am a convert who had no problem 'buying' the BoM and Joseph Smith. So its hard for me to relate to to someone who needs to view it in a factual sense.

He said he is going to start researching the church more fully and then re-take the discussions (it was a few years ago he took them).

He is approaching this prayerfully (it was his idea for us to start praying together daily) as well, and there is no denying the potential magnitude of the results of his investigating.

He really likes the church....takes issue with its founding and the BoM.

So, my questions are as follows:

Any general advice?

Any good resources for him to do research?

And I suppose one fear is that his research will lead him to anti-mormon material online. I've been there, done that, and know how confusing it can be.

And I'm not even a logic/science/fact kind of person.

Thanks everyone. :)

ETA: He is aware of 'pray about it'. :) We even have kind of an ongoing banter about the 'the challenge'. I wish it were that easy for him lol.

As a scientist and an engineer I give you a link to a talk given by Apostle Hugh B Brown. This is a man I knew personally. A great man that I knew to be hosest. A man that I have personally had conversation at length concerning religion and other things. The link Profile of a Prophet - Hugh B. Brown

The final chalenge I pass through you to your husband is to read the Book of Mormon - cover to cover.

The Traveler

[RachelleDrew]

So you are saying reading negative stuff can hurt one's spiritual growth in the church and hurt their testimony?

I actually agree with you. I don't feel that it does.

My testimony grows stronger every time I see negative or even just opposing views to my own. This is not true of everyone, but I feel that questioning your own beliefs from time to time is healthy for your spiritual growth just so long as it is aided by prayer. I often read anti-mormon propaganda just to get an idea of what their problems with our faith is. When I study the thoughts of others and do my own research afterwards then I can usually better argue my points when I personally encounter these people later.

It's also often easier to witness to them if you can counter what they are saying in an intelligent manner. This is hard to accomplish if you don't understand where the negativity is coming from in the first place.

A lot of atheists that I know use this method as well. Some of my friends with no belief in a deity read more scripture than most Christians I know so that they can use their knowledge in discussions with those who do profess belief as a form of debate ammunition. Interestingly enough, it works quite well.

The same can be reversed to our advantage. Although to those of you out there who feel like it impacts your relationship with the spirit to read negative comments about our faith then certainly avoid it. But those of you who aren't affected, use it to more effectively witness and reason with non-believers.

[Heavenguard]

I actually agree with you. I don't feel that it does.

I feel that questioning your own beliefs from time to time is healthy for your spiritual growth just so long as it is aided by prayer. I often read anti-mormon propaganda just to get an idea of what their problems with our faith is. When I study the thoughts of others and do my own research afterwards then I can usually better argue my points when I personally encounter these people later.

It's also often easier to witness to them if you can counter what they are saying in an intelligent manner. This is hard to accomplish if you don't understand where the negativity is coming from in the first place.

I whole-heartedly agree. In fact, that's the very reason I am learning about the LDS church altogether. Well, I don't actually know anyone (in person) that is an LDS member (only you guys), so... maybe not the witnessing part so much. But it's important to know how your faith stands against others, and you really need to know what you believe in in order to do that.

I say let your husband ask his questions. As a Christian, if my faith and beliefs in what I know of as being Truth (with a capital T) can't stand up against scrutiny, then it simply isn't the Truth (with a capital T).

[Islander]

A long time ago I posed a question to PrisonChaplan but he never answered. Imagine for a second that the two witnesses spoken off in Rev 11 appear. How will you know they are from God? Before the Savior returns many things will happen but many will not believe. Discerning the things of God thru just studying was never His way. It was after the Rabinical schools were established that "lawyers of the law" appear. They substituted the witness of the Spirit and the revelation of God for the scholarly/intellectual pursue of God thru the text as they are interpreted.

It is extremely difficult to acknowledge that one has been mistaken somehow. Especially when it comes to religion. There are no originals of the NT. In fact, the decision to include or exclude certain texts was a contentious and long argument. PC accepts at face value the validity and truthfulness of the NT. However, very interestingly, he thus far refuses to make an indepth study, analysis of the BoM on his own and inquire of God if the text is true. That escapes most logical arguments.

By the end of the 2nd century the leaders of the church were elected. No lines of authority was preserved. The smart ones took over the congregations and pushed away the disciples. Nobody wants to inquire of God any longer. They pretend the scriptures are sufficient but the myriad of opinions, position, interpretations and denominations points to a totally different picture.

Just a thought

[prisonchaplain]

A long time ago I posed a question to PrisonChaplan but he never answered. Imagine for a second that the two witnesses spoken off in Rev 11 appear. How will you know they are from God?

I don't expect to be here when that happens, but rather that I will be caught up in the air, to meet the LORD. However, if I am here, I should be able to discern who the prophets are by a combination of the fulfillment of biblical prophecy and by the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Before the Savior returns many things will happen but many will not believe. Discerning the things of God thru just studying was never His way. It was after the Rabinical schools were established that "lawyers of the law" appear. They substituted the witness of the Spirit and the revelation of God for the scholarly/intellectual pursue of God thru the text as they are interpreted.

Knowledge without the Spirit is legalism, Pharisaism, and spiritual death. Spirituality without knowledge is heresy, carnal fanaticism, and chaos.

It is extremely difficult to acknowledge that one has been mistaken somehow. Especially when it comes to religion. There are no originals of the NT. In fact, the decision to include or exclude certain texts was a contentious and long argument. PC accepts at face value the validity and truthfulness of the NT.

As does your Church.

However, very interestingly, he thus far refuses to make an indepth study, analysis of the BoM on his own and inquire of God if the text is true. That escapes most logical arguments.

It could be that I should try harder, but you would be mistaken if you assumed that I have not studied or prayed on this matter.

By the end of the 2nd century the leaders of the church were elected. No lines of authority was preserved. The smart ones took over the congregations and pushed away the disciples.

This particularly pessimistic assessment is only held by your church. Even most Protestants believe that there has always been a remnant of faithful believers, even during the darkest of the dark ages.

Nobody wants to inquire of God any longer. They pretend the scriptures are sufficient but the myriad of opinions, position, interpretations and denominations points to a totally different picture.

Just a thought

I'm not familiar with any major denomination or Christian church that does not believe in interpreting the Bible by the direction and leading of the Holy Spirit. Knowledge on fire!

[scdoyle]

Prisonchap, just curious, what would you do if you prayed and the spirit testified to you that the BOM is true? Would you join the LDS and get a "normal" job to support your family. I've heard of people who worked as paid clery in other churches and converted and wondered how hard it must have been for them.

They dedicated their life to their ministry and relied on it to support themselves. I'm, just curious how you would handle this situation.

[Hemidakota]

Paul faced that issue on the road to Damascus....

[candyprpl]

Hi,

I joined the church 3.5 years ago. I'm in my fifties. My sisters have been Mormons since their teens and have been very active members along with their families. The thing that I always like about the church was how family oriented it is but that was the only thing that piqued my interest. I couldn't believe the Joseph Smith story either. It just seem too far out their for me. But....I never tried to discover anything about it either. I think the thing that probably brought me to investigate a little closer was when I got to a point in my life where I needed answers to why I was here, why I was alive. I had studied psychology, philosophy, "new age" philosophies, etc. and never could find an answer that made since. I knew that something spiritually was missing and kind of like Joseph Smith I started asking the question, 'which church?' To make this long story a little shorter -- I started taking the lessons and praying and did get comfirmation that this was the church. And.....I still had reservations about the Joseph Smith story. But.....how could the Book of Mormon be true and not the fact that Joseph Smith was called as a prophet to restore Jesus Christ's church? So I went purely on faith that it was true and was baptized and it's been receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and scripture reading and praying that I've gained a testimony of Joseph Smith. He was a man with faults just like us, he made mistakes at times, but never when it came to revelations from God. He was a wonderful, loving, caring man and always lived the gospel. He was and is a prophet of God and that is my testimony. Sincerely, Candace

[Moksha]

I would show the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; so, don't argue because you can't see it, for you won't get that proof till you die. (Updated Ether 12:6)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Excellent point. We all must make a leap of faith, (even though some insist that they absolutely know this leap of faith is the truth).

[prisonchaplain]

Prisonchap, just curious, what would you do if you prayed and the spirit testified to you that the BOM is true? Would you join the LDS and get a "normal" job to support your family. I've heard of people who worked as paid clery in other churches and converted and wondered how hard it must have been for them.

They dedicated their life to their ministry and relied on it to support themselves. I'm, just curious how you would handle this situation.

I could figure out some human-reasoning type answers to that question, but, like millions before me, should the LORD direct me to a different and difficult path, by faith (in HIM, not myself), I would walk where He told me to walk, and trust God with the details.