Advice?

[hidden]

Please delete this thread.

Thank you.

Edited January 23, 2009 by hidden

[FunkyTown]

OK – I started a new name so I can do this anonymously (not that anyone really knew who I personally was with my other name but…) Before I joined the church I was a real mess, and I mean a real mess. I won’t name everything that was going on with me, except for one. I had an abortion. Before I was baptized, they asked the questions, I told them that this had happened, they were shocked, all I got before getting baptized was a very short phone call – in short, I had no idea how serious it was. Now I know that the shedding of innocent blood is an unpardonable sin, that I have no chance at the Celestial Kingdom – this info is coming a bit late for me though. I am married, sealed in the temple, have kids. I tried to go through the repentance process, confessed to people it was really hard to confess too, spent many nights crying, etc… I have not been forgiven. I had two visions/dreams in which at the end of the dream I can only come to the conclusion that I am not one of the ones who will make it. In short, this is ruining my marriage, and my ability to be a mother. I deeply love my family, and it tares me up inside every time I see them, to know I have failed them. So I separate myself from them, emotionally and physically. I go into deep depressions, I should probably just kill myself now and let them find someone who is worthy, but I know that would hurt them too. I don’t give a *** about myself or where I end up what happens to me, my issue is for my current family and the shame I bring them. Why the hell did no one explain this to me before I was baptized??? Before I was sealed in the temple???? I told them, I told them, and they let me get mixed up with this mess anyways. If I knew I would have never gotten married, never would have joined the church. I guess God decided my punishment should start now, to show me what I could have had, to show me love, and then take it away.

So, what should I do? Get a divorce? Try and find them a new mother? How do you explain that to a 2, 4, 6yos? That I am leaving them because I love them and they deserve better than me? It would have been better for me to never have been born.

Yes, I have talked to the bishop etc. They don't get it, tell me I still have a chance, etc. They just won't deal with it.

This is not something your Bishop can deal with. Don't get me wrong - He's right. What happened before may have been terrible, but it's not something that eternally condemns you.

No, what your Bishop doesn't have the training to deal with is what clearly appears to be a deep depression. What you need is a professional. What you're experiencing is normal and it will pass, though I know that it doesn't seem like this.

The way you're speaking right now is exactly the same as one of my parents did, who suffered from manic-depression. I can spot the symptoms of a serious, real depression a mile away. You're reaching out for help right now. Take it. Go see someone about medication. If you do, you will be out of this in perhaps a month. There will be ups and downs during that time and times when it will seem like the medication is ridiculous. You will justify your depression, you will try to convince yourself that this isn't depression.

Don't listen to that voice. Get help. Your kids and you both deserve that.

[Gwen]

i obviously can't speak for the lord or anyone else as far as repentance goes. i would suggest you consider this....

you answered the questions honestly. they knew. sounds like they made the appropriate phone calls to determine if you could get baptised to begin with. you were found worthy. i have always been taught that when you come up from the waters of baptism you are clean from everything, all sin is washed away. not all but..... if you are not worthy, if there is a but, you will not be allowed to be baptised to begin with. how did you feel after you were baptised?

then you started another process to determine your worthiness, with the bishop, to attend the temple. you were interviewed, they knew, they found you worthy.

then you began a third process to determine your worthiness, with the stake pres. you were found worthy.

you went to the temple and once again you were washed clean.

does god keep his promises? are you clean? have you forgiven yourself?

i don't know if your dreams were revelation from god or not, i can't answer that. i do know that when i'm very stressed and worried about something it shows up in my dreams. this is obviously stressing you, was it from god or is it a manifestation of your fear of never making it?

the "shedding of innocent blood" is a very relitive term, only the lord makes that final decision as to if this sin has been committed. there are a lot of factors that determine it. the circomstances to begin with, what the person acting knew and didn't know, etc.

you have been found worthy 3 times, you have been washed clean of your sins, mistakes, etc twice; do you believe and embrace god's promises? he obviously sees and knows something you don't.

is this ruining your marriage cause you are having a hard time dealing with it or cause your husband is? i would not leave my children or break any of my covenants at this point. if you did not deserve these children you would not have them. god found you worthy of those specific spirits, ... do you trust him?

[Hemidakota]

OK – I started a new name so I can do this anonymously (not that anyone really knew who I personally was with my other name but…) Before I joined the church I was a real mess, and I mean a real mess. I won’t name everything that was going on with me, except for one. I had an abortion. Before I was baptized, they asked the questions, I told them that this had happened, they were shocked, all I got before getting baptized was a very short phone call – in short, I had no idea how serious it was. Now I know that the shedding of innocent blood is an unpardonable sin, that I have no chance at the Celestial Kingdom – this info is coming a bit late for me though. I am married, sealed in the temple, have kids. I tried to go through the repentance process, confessed to people it was really hard to confess too, spent many nights crying, etc… I have not been forgiven. I had two visions/dreams in which at the end of the dream I can only come to the conclusion that I am not one of the ones who will make it. In short, this is ruining my marriage, and my ability to be a mother. I deeply love my family, and it tares me up inside every time I see them, to know I have failed them. So I separate myself from them, emotionally and physically. I go into deep depressions, I should probably just kill myself now and let them find someone who is worthy, but I know that would hurt them too. I don’t give a *** about myself or where I end up what happens to me, my issue is for my current family and the shame I bring them. Why the hell did no one explain this to me before I was baptized??? Before I was sealed in the temple???? I told them, I told them, and they let me get mixed up with this mess anyways. If I knew I would have never gotten married, never would have joined the church. I guess God decided my punishment should start now, to show me what I could have had, to show me love, and then take it away.

So, what should I do? Get a divorce? Try and find them a new mother? How do you explain that to a 2, 4, 6yos? That I am leaving them because I love them and they deserve better than me? It would have been better for me to never have been born.

Yes, I have talked to the bishop etc. They don't get it, tell me I still have a chance, etc. They just won't deal with it.

Ok, let me summarize what I am reading here:

1] You brought up everything to the Mission President or missionaries of your past, to include abortion.

2] You were baptized in the church, the mission knew of this act.

3] You were found worthy by both the Bishop and Stake President in holding callings, temple worthy, and sealed under the everlasting covenant.

4] According to the baptismal covenant, your past sins are cleanse and now someone is questioning your previous actions, prior to baptism, and told you, you have no chance in entering into the Celestial Kingdom.

Is this correct?

Who is telling you, you are going to hell or it is an unpardonable sin?

[MarginOfError]

Dear Sister,

Your post has inspired a rare surge of emotion in me. I have great sympathy for you and sincerely hope that you will begin to feel the compassion that you deserve to feel. I sincerely hope that we here have done nothing to exacerbate the guilt you are feeling; but I am not optimistic that such is the case.

Oftentimes in a community like this, where the majority of the opinions are already in agreement, comments about abortion can be a little exaggerated. In LDS circles, we sometimes speak of abortion with very harsh words, terming it “murder”, “shedding innocent blood,” and even “unforgivable.” I hope you can learn to disregard these comments—in LDS doctrine, these statements are simply not true.

I first refer you to an article in the August 1972 Ensign entitled “The Case against Easier Abortion Laws.” (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Case against Easier Abortion Laws) In this article, Gilbert Scharffs quotes from the June 1972 Priesthood Bulletin. I am going to share a part of that quote here, but I want it to be clear that the quote that follows is taken directly from the Priesthood Bulletin and is considered an official explanation of policy to Church leaders.

The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer.

As the matter stands today, no definite statement has been made by the Lord one way or another regarding the crime of abortion. So far as is known, he has not listed it alongside the crime of the unpardonable sin and shedding of innocent human blood. That he has not done so would suggest that it is not in that class of crime and therefore that it will be amenable to the laws of repentance and forgiveness.

So you see, in the view of the Church, abortion is not in the same class of sin as murder, nor is it in the same class as “shedding innocent blood.” Any member of the Church who says otherwise is doing so in blatant contradiction to Church policy on the issue. Furthermore, abortion is a forgivable sin. You need to stop telling yourself you can’t be forgiven. In fact, if we were speaking face-to-face, I would use the words “in the name of Jesus Christ, stop telling yourself you can’t be forgiven.”

Boyd K. Packer delivered a talk in 1992 that I highly recommend you read. It was given in the April General Conference of that year and is entitled “Our Moral Environment.” (LDS.org - Ensign Article - Our Moral Environment). In this talk, Elder Packer said:

In the battle of life, the adversary takes enormous numbers of prisoners, and many who know of no way to escape and are pressed into his service. Every soul confined to a concentration camp of sin and guilt has a key to the gate. The adversary cannot hold them if they know how to use it. The key is labeled Repentance. The twin principles of repentance and forgiveness exceed in strength the awesome power of the adversary.

I know of no sins connected with the moral standard for which we cannot be forgiven. I do not exempt abortion. The formula is stated in forty words:

“Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.

“By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” (D&C 58:42–43.)

He is very clear that forgiveness is available to those who have had an abortion. Forgiveness is available to you. That’s a promise that every Apostle will make to you.

The last resource I will share with you is a talk given by Elder Robert D. Hales in the October Conference in 1976. He read a letter from a young woman who had an abortion. At the time, this young woman was an inactive member of the Church. She tells of the circumstances leading up to her abortion, her return to Church, and her struggles with obtaining forgiveness after returning to Church. I won’t quote the whole story (but you can read it here: LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Lord Offers Everyone a Way Back from Sin). The only part I will share is this:

Following my interview with the bishop, I found myself alternating between depression in which I wondered if I would ever be forgiven and becoming lax in doing the things I should be doing. I have learned that ‘to change’ isn’t easy. It takes time. One must learn to ‘try’ and ‘try again.’

“Now I find myself growing ever closer to the Lord—more positive. I know if I continue to work and to grow, my Father in heaven will forgive me, but most importantly, I will also forgive myself. The important thing is that I must persevere in doing what I know to be right.

I do not have the ability, nor the authority to tell you if the Savior has forgiven you. I can sense, however, that you have not forgiven yourself, which is something you must learn to do.

Now that we have established that you can be forgiven we need to stress this point endlessly: Do not lose hope. Also, do not try to take this journey alone. It appears you have felt hopelessness in your situation for so long that you have sunk into a depression. Seek help. Discuss this more with your bishop, and let him know that you neither feel forgiven nor have you forgiven yourself. Involve your husband in this discussion. Seek professional help through counseling and/or therapy.

You are absolutely not beyond the reach of the atonement. I promise you that if you will seek help, and diligently seek the strength to forgive yourself, you will come to know a joy and happiness as exquisite and wonderful as is your pain and despair.

With the greatest of affections,

MOE

Edited January 15, 2009 by MarginOfError
fix quote

[Hemidakota]

Lets make something very clear here...when a person is baptized into the community of GOD, ALL SINS, I mean ALL SINS, are wiped clean. There is one exception to this baptismal doctrine and that is murder. Murderers are not to be baptized without clearance from the First Presidency. Abortions previous to baptism will need clearance from the Mission President Himself. If I am correct, she had this interview prior to her covenant with GOD on what I had digested. It that being case, know one, I mean no one in the church should be questioning her pre-baptismal past. Now, if they are, they themselves are under condemnation. [oohh just felt the Holy Ghost. Strange!]

[Faded]

OK – I started a new name so I can do this anonymously (not that anyone really knew who I personally was with my other name but…) Before I joined the church I was a real mess, and I mean a real mess. I won’t name everything that was going on with me, except for one. I had an abortion. Before I was baptized, they asked the questions, I told them that this had happened, they were shocked, all I got before getting baptized was a very short phone call – in short, I had no idea how serious it was. Now I know that the shedding of innocent blood is an unpardonable sin, that I have no chance at the Celestial Kingdom – this info is coming a bit late for me though. I am married, sealed in the temple, have kids. I tried to go through the repentance process, confessed to people it was really hard to confess too, spent many nights crying, etc… I have not been forgiven. I had two visions/dreams in which at the end of the dream I can only come to the conclusion that I am not one of the ones who will make it. In short, this is ruining my marriage, and my ability to be a mother. I deeply love my family, and it tares me up inside every time I see them, to know I have failed them. So I separate myself from them, emotionally and physically. I go into deep depressions, I should probably just kill myself now and let them find someone who is worthy, but I know that would hurt them too. I don’t give a *** about myself or where I end up what happens to me, my issue is for my current family and the shame I bring them. Why the hell did no one explain this to me before I was baptized??? Before I was sealed in the temple???? I told them, I told them, and they let me get mixed up with this mess anyways. If I knew I would have never gotten married, never would have joined the church. I guess God decided my punishment should start now, to show me what I could have had, to show me love, and then take it away.

So, what should I do? Get a divorce? Try and find them a new mother? How do you explain that to a 2, 4, 6yos? That I am leaving them because I love them and they deserve better than me? It would have been better for me to never have been born.

Yes, I have talked to the bishop etc. They don't get it, tell me I still have a chance, etc. They just won't deal with it.

You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions. Firstly, you've concluded that you are unforgivable. That's not true. The Church is filled with guidelines on many things, but for every assumed rule there are exceptions. The second (and most dangerous) assumption that you've made is that the feelings of self-destructiveness are coming from natural and normal guilt for a sin. They are not. There is one easy litmus test to check for the source of any type of guilt.

1.) You feel bad that you have done something wrong and feel motivated to change your life, become a better person and do what you can where possible to make up for what you have done. And for everything you cannot make up for, you trust in God to make everything alright. This is Godly Sorrow.

2.) You feel so bad about a sin that you feel completely worthless. You hate yourself. You despair at never being able to repent. You enter into a downward spiral of self-destructive feelings. It may end in suicide. It may end in doing any number of other fooish things -- all outward expressions of self-loathing. Shunning people who you love and who love you. Turning your back on family and friends. Feeling that you don't deserve to be loved. This is the sorrow that comes from Satan.

Consider two examples from scripture. Judas Iscarriot and the people of Anti-Nephi Lehi.

Judas Iscarriot was led by Satan to betray the Savior. He remained in the grasp of Satan thereafter. He realized that he had betrayed Jesus to be killed for no crime and no sin. Where did Satan lead him? Suicide. Satan is very interested in making us all miserable and he can't hope to score a bigger victory in that department than getting us to kill ourselves.

The people of Anti-Nephi Lehi admitted that they had murdered innocent Nephites prior to their conversion. And yet, God accepted their repentance anyways. They were forgiven anyways. They did everything they could to make up for their murders and left the rest in the hands of God. They went above and beyond the typical requirements of repentance -- and for them that may have been the price. Do you think that God will lock them out of the Celestial Kingdom?

There is also a hole in your doctrinal conclusions. Shedding the innocent blood is how David lost his exaltation. Why was that? He was already temple married, sealed and endowed. You were not. The same rules do not apply.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Faded

[BenRaines]

From what you have said it is not God who has not forgiven you it is YOU who has not forgiven you.

Without the gospel in your life and the knowledge of the gospel sin that is committed is sin without knowledge. Upon accepting the gospel and feeling the remorse of sin committed without knowing the repentance process is initiated. By accepting baptism and turning your life to follow Christ's teachings you have done what God asks to be forgiven.

Now you need to forgive yourself.

Again from what you have shared it is not that God hasn't forgiven you, it is YOU who hasn't forgiven you. Continue to do the things that you know you should do and continue to show God that you have accepted his love and the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ, if not then the atonement means little to you.

Good luck in getting back on track.

Forgive yourself. God has already it is you who need to forgive you.

What the others have said in this thread is very true.

Ben Raines

[pam]

I agree with what everyone has said. When you were baptized ALL sins were washed away. You were honest in your answers therefore...no more worries.

As Ben said..sounds like it is YOU that needs to forgive yourself. Sounds like you have everything else in place. Eternal marriage, eternal family. Let the guilt you may be feeling go. Heavenly Father has forgiven you now it's up to you.

[FunkyTown]

From what you have said it is not God who has not forgiven you it is YOU who has not forgiven you.

Without the gospel in your life and the knowledge of the gospel sin that is committed is sin without knowledge. Upon accepting the gospel and feeling the remorse of sin committed without knowing the repentance process is initiated. By accepting baptism and turning your life to follow Christ's teachings you have done what God asks to be forgiven.

Now you need to forgive yourself.

Again from what you have shared it is not that God hasn't forgiven you, it is YOU who hasn't forgiven you. Continue to do the things that you know you should do and continue to show God that you have accepted his love and the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ, if not then the atonement means little to you.

Good luck in getting back on track.

Forgive yourself. God has already it is you who need to forgive you.

What the others have said in this thread is very true.

Ben Raines

Ben? Everyone? I want you to look at the last line of her original post:

"Yes, I have talked to the bishop etc. They don't get it, tell me I still have a chance, etc. They just won't deal with it. "

She has talked with church leaders and it hasn't made a difference. That isn't the sign of someone who needs reason. That is the sign of clinical depression. She's talking about killing herself so her kids can have a mother who will be with them in the Celestial Kingdom.

You need to let her know she needs help. This is classical clinical depression, where everything is exacerbated. She needs help. Let her know that because people who are clinically depressed have to desperately fight the, "Why should I bother getting medication? There's no hope. Will medication fix (insert problem here)?"

This is classical depression language. It's not just a cry for help(Although it is that) this is a serious imbalance. Help her. Tell her to get help.

[Guest Alana]

Satan is great at making us feel dirty still from things that are forgiven. It's been mentioned in many general conference talks. Does life seem confusing and overwhelming? Do you think those feelings, this fog, this inclination to turn away from the good things (you family) come from your Heavenly Father or from Satan?

[Faded]

One other thing I think merit discussion. Just telling you that you shouldn't feel bad doesnt' make you feel all better. It's just not as simple as that. Bear in mind that interviews with the bishop, mission president and everything else -- these are just steps to repentance for these sorts of things. It's between you and God to work out the rest. It is up to you to lay claim to the Atonement of Jesus Christ and obtain true assurance of forgiveness from God. People can tell you that you are forgiven until doomsday. Until you have that directly from God, you won't be at peace.

I think it also bears mentioning: I've known a lot of people who got themselves into exactly the same mindset over far lesser sins. I've fallen into the same trap myself, long ago. One of the worst examples was a couple who only got frustrated with not living the gospel as well as they felt they should be doing. Nothing but the most minor of sins. But they fell into the same trap. They had given up on themselves. They actually were 100% sure that they were incapable of repenting!!

I STRONGLY urge you to read "Believing Christ" by Stephen E. Robinson. It addresses this very issue: Struggling to forgive ourselves, feel forgiven and understanding the atonement.

Note: Book looks like this: Amazon.com: believing christ Get it or borrow it from wherever.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Faded

[sensibility]

I agree with FunkyTown; you are deeply depressed, and it isn't your fault. Talk therapy, light therapy, drug therapy--all or any of these might be able to help you out of this rut. God has blessed us in this era with the knowledge to treat depression, and there is no shame in seeking out treatment. Please look in the phone book for a hotline or a counselling service today, and call them. This is something you need to do today, not later.

Meantime, know that Christ is mighty to save. His Atonement was infinite and all-encompassing. His power to heal is greater than your sins or depression. He's the Creator and Lord of the earth, and He can heal you of everything. That was why He came to earth. I hope you can come to feel that.

God bless.

Edited January 15, 2009 by sensibility

[hidden]

...

Edited January 23, 2009 by hidden

[checkerboy]

Hey let me play a little devils advocate here (Sorry bad choice of words)

Ok let's for arguments sake say that abortion is the same as murder. Would she still not be forgiven? If I remember right David said something to the effect of the Lord not leaving his soul in hell. Murder is a forgivable sin. Not in this life though. But the only sin ever listed as unpardonable is denying the Holy Ghost, a sin not very many of us even have the ability to commit. So I don't know if that helps but I thought I would throw it out there.

[MarginOfError]

Hey let me play a little devils advocate here (Sorry bad choice of words)

Ok let's for arguments sake say that abortion is the same as murder. Would she still not be forgiven? If I remember right David said something to the effect of the Lord not leaving his soul in hell. Murder is a forgivable sin. Not in this life though. But the only sin ever listed as unpardonable is denying the Holy Ghost, a sin not very many of us even have the ability to commit. So I don't know if that helps but I thought I would throw it out there.

While I see your point, and it's one that I can agree with, I'm not sure that positing "even if it is that bad you can still be forgiven after you die" is a good approach to take with a person who has entertained thoughts of death. Given the person and the specifics of this situation, I think it might be better to focus on the fact that she can be forgiven in this life.

Have we provided any useful advice yet, hidden?

[beefche]

Thank you everyone, I really should not unload this on anyone. Sorry.

Until you have that directly from God, you won't be at peace

Bingo.

Hidden, please read this post. You say that you need to know directly from God that you are forgiven. As someone who is currently depressed, know this....it is extremely difficult to feel God when you are depressed. It's not that He's not there, it's that I simply can not feel His presence. Depression affects your mind and spirit and numbs you to God's voice. It is not a permanent thing. And there are times when I can feel His presence, but overall as someone who is depressed, please know that you may not feel His confirmation because of your depression.

I urge you to seek help from a professional. LDS services is available to you...if you or your insurance won't/can't pay, then the ward may be able to pay. You can go Counseling services here to find out about a LDS Family Services center in your area. Call them now. They are there to help you. Don't be embarrassed, afraid, whatever. Please ask for help as it is available and you can feel forgiven and God's love and care for you.

[BenRaines]

While a missionary we taught a lady the gospel, she was from Cuba. In the course of the interview for baptism she shared that she had had an abortion in Cuba years earlier. This took an interview with the Mission President. She learned that you can't sin without knowledge. She didn't have the gospel before. Thereby it wasn't a sin. Without knowledge there is no sin.

While something may be disagreeable to the world it is not necessarily a sin until you know the will of God. Once you know then it is a sin.

I am fairly confident that is what the Bishop, Stake President and Mission President would say to someone coming in for baptism.

How was it the Lord said it "Go thy way and sin no more".

Ben Raines

[skippy740]

2 Timothy 1

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

[Misshalfway]

Sounds to me like there are two issues at hand here. First, how you see yourself and what you have done, and then how Father in Heaven sees your life and all the components of it.

I know a little of what it is like to feel intense self reproach for events in my past.....and to feel depressed because of them. I am pretty good at discounting my goodness if I make a mistake or if I fail in some way...even sinfully. I also know what it is like to pray or plead with the Lord and to be very unsure of any confirmation of forgiveness or acceptance from on high.

For me, this was a test of faith. Did I or do I have faith in the scriptures? In the message of the gospel? Did I or could I believe Christ and his promises of healing even when the heavens have not confirmed it directly? Especially when Satan is so good at making me feel shame and self loathing and as he convinces me that God could never accept someone such as me! I am not sure the Lord gives the confirmation until we exercise this faith and walk forward in it "as if" he had given the confirmation.

I think it starts with determination. I think you need to dig deep and determine that YOU are going to forgive yourself. You can't change the past, but you can and probably have changed from the person who made certain decisions. THAT is what Father really wants. It isn't about what we have done....it is about who we become!!! Give yourself the gift of forgiveness. Give yourself the patience and kindness and gentleness you deserve. You may have to make that decision every day for a while as that shame voice and satan's meaness shows its ugliness. Make yourself the kind of person that sees mistakes with grace and patience and kindness. See your mistakes thru those eyes and banish the thoughts of self condemnation. I guarantee that God's voice NEVER condemns this way! His verdicts and evaluations are given with such immense understanding and compassion and eternal comprehension. He doesn't define us in the earthy way we do. So let God see who you are today!!! And then move forward and close the door on the past.

I wonder.....what if you wrote a letter to that unborn child. Apologize. Explain. Express the feelings you may need to. Then send the letter out into the universe and let it all go into the loving hands of God to order provide, and heal. OK? Then set yourself free from it.

Lets talk about the depression piece for a minute and any feelings you may have of harming yourself. I have been there too and I know!!! I know the logic of thinking your kids might be better off without you or that the pain is too great and you just want it to end somehow. Be honest with yourself dear. Are you depressed? Is there a chance any of it could be hormonal or is there a chance medication or therapy could help you deal with your emotions and self talk in healthy ways? You are your best caretaker. Father in Heaven wants us to take care with ourselves in all the various places we may find ourselves. Take the courageous steps to reach out as you are guided by the Spirit and your inner voice to the sources of help that are there for you. Don't be afraid of being good and doing good. YOU are GOOD! And you deserve the best care, no matter what you have done in the past.

Mercy is more powerful than condemnation. Forgiveness is more powerful than self loathing. Kindness and love are the things that make a true disciple of Christ a true disciple....not a perfect record. Ok? Go talk to Moses and Paul and both Alma's about mistakes -- really really big wicked ones! Look at the potential of all of them when they learned the lessons of Christ and the real message of the good news.

Blessings to you my dear. May you deal with yourself in kindness and forgiveness and Godly self care. May you be your own best friend as you comfort and love and forgive that person you used to be and as you care for the person you are now. You stay with those kids! You love those beloved kids! Don't let yesterday take today too! Ok?

ANd just one PS. Sometimes we have to be our own best advocate when it comes to dealing with priesthood leaders. Abortion is NOT murder and never has been. Also....you did not at the time possess the information about such an act until later in your life. Where there is no law there is no condemnation. Do you understand that? If you bishop seems distance or unresponsive, go make an appointment with the stake pres. and get this behind you. Someone WILL be there for you to help you find peace. That is what the work of the gospel is all about for all of us. So, be your own best friend and fight for the right to have priesthood help with this issue.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Wingnut]

While a missionary we taught a lady the gospel, she was from Cuba. In the course of the interview for baptism she shared that she had had an abortion in Cuba years earlier. This took an interview with the Mission President. She learned that you can't sin without knowledge. She didn't have the gospel before. Thereby it wasn't a sin. Without knowledge there is no sin.

While something may be disagreeable to the world it is not necessarily a sin until you know the will of God. Once you know then it is a sin.

I am fairly confident that is what the Bishop, Stake President and Mission President would say to someone coming in for baptism.

How was it the Lord said it "Go thy way and sin no more".

Ben Raines

...you did not at the time possess the information about such an act until later in your life. Where there is no law there is no condemnation. Do you understand that?

Thank you both so much for making this point. With great power (or greater understanding), comes great responsibility (or something like that from Peter Parker). Without knowledge, there cannot be punishment. Hence God is both merciful and just.

[Faded]

Hey let me play a little devils advocate here (Sorry bad choice of words)

Ok let's for arguments sake say that abortion is the same as murder. Would she still not be forgiven? If I remember right David said something to the effect of the Lord not leaving his soul in hell. Murder is a forgivable sin. Not in this life though. But the only sin ever listed as unpardonable is denying the Holy Ghost, a sin not very many of us even have the ability to commit. So I don't know if that helps but I thought I would throw it out there.

You could probably have a go at carelessly and haplessly tossing around speculative theological banter somewhere else. Anywhere else. Doing it in this sort of thread is a lot like putting together a football game in the middle of a cemetery. Just bad manners and all kinds of untactful. Probably shouldn't respond, but here goes anyways.

To answer your points: No, no, no, no and no. No abortion is not equal to murder. No David is not a comparable example -- and I already pointed this out. He was endowed, married in the temple, and would have probably needed to have had his calling and election made sure (something that very, very few people have or will ever experience in their lifetime.) He didn't just know better. He REALLY knew better -- to a degree that most of us will never know in this lifetime.

It is a circumstance so dis-similar from Hidden's that it really isn't worth mentioning. Hidden would bear more resemblance to the Anti-Nephi Lehi people in the Book of Mormon. People who did indeed commit murder, but did it in ignorance, not fully comprehending what they were doing at the time. And that brings me to another point you're missing: Murder unforgivable in this lifetime? Apparently not. And abortion is not murder. Certainly not a good thing of course, but it's not quite the same thing as murder. It is always dangerous to assume that you know the correct Sunday School answer and to then expect it to apply for all circumstances. It's a lot more important to realize that God will make exceptions where he sees fit and that nobody gets to tell him He's wrong.

One of the best rules for life and this lost and fallen world: For every rule there is an exception. <-- It applies to that rule too.

[Tamrajh]

Hidden, even your last comment was full of depression and suicidal thoughts (coming from someone who has lived in that realm for a long time, I recognize it). Are you seeking professional help?

Are you learning how the plan of salvation works? REALLY WORKS FOR YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL?

[bert10]

There is a lot of hope here so take a breath and consider the following....

First of all ....the degree of any sin is based on "knowledge of the will of God"

Jesus said....He that did things worthy of many stripes and did not know the will of the Father...shall receive few. The Book of Mormon contains many things of height and depth of the forgiveness of God read how it was possible even for the Lamanites to be baptized after the cruel things they did to the Nephites.

Are you even less worthy than a Lamanite?

And He also said....Because ye say "we see" sin remaineth.

John 9:41 - Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

---------------------------------------

What are Sons of Perdition.

A Son of perdition is a person who will not repent or cannot be brought to Repentance. It is in short to reject light after knowing it. And spiritually the word "Knowing" something means...."tasting" or "Experiencing"

There is an example of this in Hebrews 6:4-6

Hebrews 6:4 - For it is impossible for those who were once (1) enlightened, and (2) have tasted of the heavenly gift, and (3) were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 (4) And have tasted the good word of God, and (5) the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 - If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

Now not all dreams come from God. Wait for confirmation. If you are able to be renewed unto repentance then you are not a candidate son/daughter of perdition.

As for the Celestial Kingdom remember women in the bible who were not of the House of Israel and still received from GOD great blessings. Ie. Ruth: the Widow Elijah was sent to: the Cananite woman in Jesus day.

Now from the BOOk of Mormon...remember the admonition below is given to a Son of the church one who has already been given the law.... not to a Lamanite...who did not know the law....and also couple these words of Jesus...who said it is the Children of the kingdom that go into the outer darkness. Even so ALMA DOES NOT TAKE HOPE AWAY.

Alma 39:5 - Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?

Alma 39:6 - For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.

So as the Lord would Say "be of GOOD CHEER". "Even in repentance be of Good cheer". By making your temple cheery...Light will come into it...and the Spirits of depressions and errors shall move out.

Peace be unto you

bert10

OK – I started a new name so I can do this anonymously (not that anyone really knew who I personally was with my other name but…) Before I joined the church I was a real mess, and I mean a real mess. I won’t name everything that was going on with me, except for one. I had an abortion. Before I was baptized, they asked the questions, I told them that this had happened, they were shocked, all I got before getting baptized was a very short phone call – in short, I had no idea how serious it was. Now I know that the shedding of innocent blood is an unpardonable sin, that I have no chance at the Celestial Kingdom – this info is coming a bit late for me though. I am married, sealed in the temple, have kids. I tried to go through the repentance process, confessed to people it was really hard to confess too, spent many nights crying, etc… I have not been forgiven. I had two visions/dreams in which at the end of the dream I can only come to the conclusion that I am not one of the ones who will make it. In short, this is ruining my marriage, and my ability to be a mother. I deeply love my family, and it tares me up inside every time I see them, to know I have failed them. So I separate myself from them, emotionally and physically. I go into deep depressions, I should probably just kill myself now and let them find someone who is worthy, but I know that would hurt them too. I don’t give a *** about myself or where I end up what happens to me, my issue is for my current family and the shame I bring them. Why the hell did no one explain this to me before I was baptized??? Before I was sealed in the temple???? I told them, I told them, and they let me get mixed up with this mess anyways. If I knew I would have never gotten married, never would have joined the church. I guess God decided my punishment should start now, to show me what I could have had, to show me love, and then take it away.

So, what should I do? Get a divorce? Try and find them a new mother? How do you explain that to a 2, 4, 6yos? That I am leaving them because I love them and they deserve better than me? It would have been better for me to never have been born.

Yes, I have talked to the bishop etc. They don't get it, tell me I still have a chance, etc. They just won't deal with it.

[Hemidakota]

A Son of perdition is a person who will not repent or cannot be brought to Repentance. It is in short to reject light after knowing it. And spiritually the word "Knowing" something means...."tasting" or "Experiencing"

It would be hard for most in this world to become the Sons of Perdition. These are they that the Holy Ghost presented their souls to receive the 'fullness of the Godhead' and later rejected the truth. Thus, fell away in placing themselves without the Spirit of comfort in fighting against the Godhead, hence, in becoming like Cain. Sidney Ridgon in his lifetime had received the fullness of the Godhead and received the Second Comfortor, Later, he apostatized. Now what will be his fate?