Money Problems in Marriage (From anonomous)

[Heather]

A person on the forums who would like to remain anonymous requested that I post the following message for him:

Well, I was wanting to post the issues I had in my marriage. I did not want to have my wife find out because she can have a pretty bad temper.

It really started with me finding out years ago about her having large amounts of credit card debt and not telling me untill after we were engaged. I almost felt like calling off the marriage but because she is so sweet and nice to everyone including my familly then, my parents refused to not see me call off the marriage. She still has credit card binge buying from time to time and has never had a savings account.

I have not worked since last August and currently not brining in any other income. While my loads of overtime that I saved during the year has been my income up to this time my wife does not get it that the fact I am out of work she keeps buying things. Since I have stopped working she has purchaced..

- A new King size bed. Our last one is two years old.

- A new two seat sofa. I protested that one.

-New electric fireplace. She did not tell me on this one.

-New computer. She did not tell me this and hid it in the closet.

-New 40 inche LCD TV Again, did not tell me I came home one day with the new LCD in the box.

-New TV DVR

-New 15 inch LCD tv for master bedroom

- NEW rice cooker. Nothing wrong with old one.

She knows Im not working demands money from me at the end of each month. Complains if I dont pay it our rent check will bounce.

Ohh and if anyone suggest we go seek counseling, she will refuse. Early on before we were sealed stake president recomended we seek counseling as this is the standard for all couples that are married.When I asked my wife to see a finacial counseler as the stake presedient sugested/required she was mad and said if we seek a finacial counselor I will divorse you.

So that pretty much put the nail in the coffin. Often she would always threaten divorse but as of the last year or two has not been a factor.

She is a wonderfull person in alot of other ways. Just with I could get her to understand the value of time VS money. BTW, I am a saver and pinch pennies.

[Sequoia]

So anonymous, I also have a financial crisis that was sprung on me to the tune of $60,000! I too posted under "harboring anger." I am struggling to deal with trust. I struggling to find the ground I thought was shared between us. He owned up to his problem of not financially doing what I asked while in school and working. I didn't find out though until I quit, moved our family, and then looked over everything.

There is a difference though. He admitted that it was his fault. He doesn't want to be involved in finances, because he doesn't understand it. (Yeah, I kind of figured that out!!!) Your wife has a serious problem and won't admit it. That is worse. The fact she hides the stuff and leaves it in boxes shows there is a serious problem. She does need counseling, and if you ever have children, it'll get worse. It's hard for even us penny pinchers to refrain from buying them things.

So, one way to get her to counseling, is for you to go. Tell her that you are always making her mad about the money situation. Tell her that you get mad over it too, and you want her to be happy, so you will go. After you go for a session or two, tell her that the psychologist/psychiatrist is asking for her side of it. She might go in.

Other than that, I think the only hope is to cut up the cards and not let her have any access to the accounts. Talk to the financial counselor and see what rights you have to keep her from accessing the money.

Let her throw her fit. She may have found out that she gets paid for them, if the fits are just big enough. Personally, I'd just get in my car and leave at that point - for a few hours. Not my normal strategy, but sheez! she's an adult!

Stay strong in your beliefs and convictions. You will need it!

Edited January 17, 2009 by Sequoia

[pam]

I think I'd be selling every single thing she bought. You need the money more than you need the luxuries. Time to put your foot down and say enough is enough. Take the lead in the marriage. Take away any and all ways she has to purchase things. Counselling is for sure a thing that needs to be done.

[bmy-]

Put the foot down. She either attempts to change.. or she's gone. It's a team effort and someone is making the effort [counseling] and the other person refuses.. it's time for the ultimatum.

From my 20 year old perspective

[Palerider]

She doesn't want to change.....time to send her down the road.....

[Iggy]

Return what items you can. Take away the credit cards and put filters on your computer(s) so that she can not charge on them.

Give her an allowance each week or month. That way she can have her 'pin' money or 'mad' money. You will need to take her grocery shopping and pay attention to what goes into the cart. If she puts stuff in that you feel is too expensive or not needed, remove them. YOU pay for the groceries.

Pay attention to her wardrobe. If she really needs clothes, then go with her to purchase the items. Try out the thrift stores. I have found some awesome clothes in thrift stores!

It sounds like your wife has an addiction. She needs counseling big time. When she threaten divorce - tell her that divorce is not an option. Be sure you give her a minimum of two options that you can live with. Like: Going to counseling with Dr A or going to counseling with Dr B.

One other thing - never, ever give her another credit card or the check book. That would be like giving a recovering alcoholic/junkie a drink/drug.

You also need to look in every nook and corner of your home, garage, shed, etc. to see if she has hidden any more treasures.

You say you are not working - where were you when she bought all of these things?? Is she working?

[lilered]

Ahh Heather, the old posting for someone else trick.

I agree that someone has to take the lead in order to get this situation under control. If your wife isn't willing, then you must, you are also just as responsible for each others debt as long as you are married. I agree with the action of returning as much stuff as you are able, cutting up the credit cards, establishing a budget etc. If she is not willing, then more drastic steps may in be order.

[Elgama]

i think time has come to say either we work on it together or we go on our separate ways, I would also be selling all the bought items. Have you had a blessing?

And next time she refuses to at least speak to your Bishop, and threatens divorce say OK, make sure you can pack bags and leave take kids if you want etc you have to be serious and have your action plan in place to leave then or it won't be taken seriously, When my husband's depression was getting out of hand I finally got to the stage where I packed mine and our daughters bag and calmly said you have an hour and a half to convince me this marriage is worth saving or I am leaving on the next bus, its not a decision I took lightly last thing I wanted was a broken home, but the home was already broken and it needed to be fixed.

-Charley

Edited January 17, 2009 by Elgama

[StrawberryFields]

Over Spending happens for many reasons IMO and I am not a professional.

Sometimes spending money is a way to "Fill A Hole Inside" and yet the person never feels full.

Sometimes spending money can be to show others "Success"

Maybe overspending is a way of reaching out for attention.

You said that she has a temper. Could she be spending money that you don't have to punish someone?

I wish you the best. I think you need to find out what motivates her to spend before you can fix the problem.

[NeuroTypical]

Let her follow through on her ultimatums.

Whether she does or not, neither of you should have credit cards.

Your marriage may or may not survive, but it is your responsibility to do whatever you can to protect yourself. (It's also your responsibility to help her protect herself, but you can't force her to let you be a good hubby.)

LM

[applepansy]

People who spend money as you describe usually have issues that need to be addressed. That she refuses counseling is a sign that she knows there are issues and is not ready or doesn't desire to address the issues, and doesn't want to consider changing the behavior.

I agree with everyone. . . cut up the credit cards. Go Cash Only. Do not let her have access to the bank accounts. Sell the things she's bought. Put her on a strict budget. If she rebels and throws a tantrum about all this, that's her problem. We all have boundaries in life. She can't set appropriate boundaries herself so you need to help her. If she threatens divorce, assure her you love her and don't want a divorce, but if that's what will make her happy to ahead.

Does she work?

applepansy

[bert10]

Until the underlying cause or root cause of her spending is addressed...you will not be able to do anything in her case. Buying urges could be due "Control issues in her life" Or due to validation and self worth problems. This is an example of Conditional Love.

The advice I mostly give...is how to deal with Oneself. Because that is the only thing we can exercise any type of real control over.

As for her bills...the only thing you can do is make her aware she is responsible for her debts. Once she loses her credit cards the problem is in part solved...

You are not alone...Until she realizes that she has a problem...there is not much you can do.

The only thing you can do is to not let any of this to separate you from the Pure Love of Christ.

Peace be unto you

bert10

A person on the forums who would like to remain anonymous requested that I post the following message for him:

Well, I was wanting to post the issues I had in my marriage. I did not want to have my wife find out because she can have a pretty bad temper.

It really started with me finding out years ago about her having large amounts of credit card debt and not telling me untill after we were engaged. I almost felt like calling off the marriage but because she is so sweet and nice to everyone including my familly then, my parents refused to not see me call off the marriage. She still has credit card binge buying from time to time and has never had a savings account.

I have not worked since last August and currently not brining in any other income. While my loads of overtime that I saved during the year has been my income up to this time my wife does not get it that the fact I am out of work she keeps buying things. Since I have stopped working she has purchaced..

- A new King size bed. Our last one is two years old.

- A new two seat sofa. I protested that one.

-New electric fireplace. She did not tell me on this one.

-New computer. She did not tell me this and hid it in the closet.

-New 40 inche LCD TV Again, did not tell me I came home one day with the new LCD in the box.

-New TV DVR

-New 15 inch LCD tv for master bedroom

- NEW rice cooker. Nothing wrong with old one.

She knows Im not working demands money from me at the end of each month. Complains if I dont pay it our rent check will bounce.

Ohh and if anyone suggest we go seek counseling, she will refuse. Early on before we were sealed stake president recomended we seek counseling as this is the standard for all couples that are married.When I asked my wife to see a finacial counseler as the stake presedient sugested/required she was mad and said if we seek a finacial counselor I will divorse you.

So that pretty much put the nail in the coffin. Often she would always threaten divorse but as of the last year or two has not been a factor.

She is a wonderfull person in alot of other ways. Just with I could get her to understand the value of time VS money. BTW, I am a saver and pinch pennies.

[Mahone]

Return what items you can. Take away the credit cards and put filters on your computer(s) so that she can not charge on them.

Give her an allowance each week or month. That way she can have her 'pin' money or 'mad' money. You will need to take her grocery shopping and pay attention to what goes into the cart. If she puts stuff in that you feel is too expensive or not needed, remove them. YOU pay for the groceries.

Pay attention to her wardrobe. If she really needs clothes, then go with her to purchase the items. Try out the thrift stores. I have found some awesome clothes in thrift stores!

It sounds like your wife has an addiction. She needs counseling big time. When she threaten divorce - tell her that divorce is not an option. Be sure you give her a minimum of two options that you can live with. Like: Going to counseling with Dr A or going to counseling with Dr B.

One other thing - never, ever give her another credit card or the check book. That would be like giving a recovering alcoholic/junkie a drink/drug.

You also need to look in every nook and corner of your home, garage, shed, etc. to see if she has hidden any more treasures.

You say you are not working - where were you when she bought all of these things?? Is she working?

I really cannot agree with this. She is not a teenage daughter, you cannot control her. She does not need access to anyone elses money but that's the limit of the amount of control you can inflict on her. Any money that she has earnt she needs access to and putting filters on the computers is far too excessive. And telling her she is not allowed to divorce is very silly - what do you think she'll go and do to prove that she has as much right to divorce as anyone else?

[Elgama]

I really cannot agree with this. She is not a teenage daughter, you cannot control her. She does not need access to anyone elses money but that's the limit of the amount of control you can inflict on her. Any money that she has earnt she needs access to and putting filters on the computers is far too excessive. And telling her she is not allowed to divorce is very silly - what do you think she'll go and do to prove that she has as much right to divorce as anyone else?

She's an addict why should a husband contribute all his funds to the home if the wife will not do the same? addictions need to be treated rather than enabled, presumably the money she has taken over the years has been the money the OP has earned to look after the family,,,, if she does go off and divorce to make a point then isn't that the actions of a teenager?

Normally I would look at money husband earns as joint property but not if its been abused.

-Charley

[Mahone]

She's an addict why should a husband contribute all his funds to the home if the wife will not do the same? addictions need to be treated rather than enabled, presumably the money she has taken over the years has been the money the OP has earned to look after the family,,,, if she does go off and divorce to make a point then isn't that the actions of a teenager?

Normally I would look at money husband earns as joint property but not if its been abused.

-Charley

In my experience of people with addictions, you cannot solve the problem by controlling them. They'll become aggressive, search continually to find other ways of feeding their addiction and as soon as she is allowed access to any money she'll just go and spend again. The problem needs to be solved through a psychiatrist, not through brute force. She needs to decide herself to stop, not someone else deciding for her. You try and force her, one way or another it'll end up in separation IMO.

[Elgama]

In my experience of people with addictions, you cannot solve the problem by controlling them. They'll become aggressive, search continually to find other ways of feeding their addiction and as soon as she is allowed access to any money she'll just go and spend again. The problem needs to be solved through a psychiatrist, not through brute force. She needs to decide herself to stop, not someone else deciding for her. You try and force her, one way or another it'll end up in separation IMO.

What do you think the woman that has her husband terrified of her tantrums, and facing terrible financial burden is doing to Him?? is that not her controlling him, the balance of power in this relationshp needs to change and their needs to be repentance, and the Lord brought back in or its dead anyway, There is no brute force here its about HER agreeing to terms to save HER marriage, she has broken trust, if she is not willing to work on them and stop then it should be a separation and with him leaving. The original poster has every right to take control of his own life and start calling the shots, Yes she may need to be treated softly but the OP needs to have a life and should not be made to feel he has to take the treatment she is doling out, treating an addict softly is enabling the condition to continue and why should he have to deal with it? Yes she needs a psychiatrist, but the problem needs to be stopped this poor guy is out of work and dealing with someone who won't support him, but is demanding complete support in return. He needs to be able to trust her and not fear her and that is equally as important if she can't put the effort in then why should the marriage continue? Right now its abusive.

I lived with an addict for many years, I found that it needed me to be brutal to get through, she soon stopped threatening suicide the day I gave her a bottle of whiskey and several hundred painkillers and told her to go ahead I had, had enough, my life would be much easier and went out. I didn't take enough control of my own life early enough - and I should have stood up for myself like that more often, and I should not have stuck by her for so long, best thing I did for her was no contact for several years she had to pull herself together. If the OP's wife is going to throw such tantrums he is terrified she would find his post, then he needs to say enough is enough - she is a grown woman acting like a child, it was when I said to my husband about his depression right I had enough convince me this marriage is worth saving, that he started to improve

Yes he should sell the things to pay for the debts, and maybe he should look at them going bankrupt as a couple that way she can't get into debt.

-Charley

Edited January 18, 2009 by Elgama

[applepansy]

In my experience of people with addictions, you cannot solve the problem by controlling them. They'll become aggressive, search continually to find other ways of feeding their addiction and as soon as she is allowed access to any money she'll just go and spend again. The problem needs to be solved through a psychiatrist, not through brute force. She needs to decide herself to stop, not someone else deciding for her. You try and force her, one way or another it'll end up in separation IMO.

And as with all addictions, she won't decide to stop until she hits rock bottom.

I'm all for helping her find the bottom, fast. Before she destroys more than she has.

applepansy

[applepansy]

Yes he should sell the things to pay for the debts, and maybe he should look at them going bankrupt as a couple that way she can't get into debt.

Going bankrupt in the USA only opens up a new avenue for debt. There are many lenders out there begging for the business of bankrupt people. They are advertised as "fresh start" programs.

Taking out bankruptcy should be a last resort. If the OP is in the USA it won't give the wife a wake up call.

applepansy

[gabelpa]

Going bankrupt in the USA only opens up a new avenue for debt. There are many lenders out there begging for the business of bankrupt people. They are advertised as "fresh start" programs.

Taking out bankruptcy should be a last resort. If the OP is in the USA it won't give the wife a wake up call.

applepansy

Considering the current credit crisis in America and the World at large, I am surprised that these organisations can still get the capital to continue these kinds of operations.

I am with my wife on this one, the wife needs to have access to no means for creating any more debt. If she needs to spend money (food, etc) then she should have a budget and cash working funds only.

She is the abuser in an emotionally abusive relationship. That abuse HAS TO STOP. It will get worse once the credit cards are gone, and then the husband should leave with the kids,and start over, with rules on spending, or else evict the wife. If the wife is serious about a divorce, then start the proceedings. Otherwise, she's welcome to come back into the family as long as she obeys the rules on spending. No chances as she's already used them up.

[applepansy]

Considering the current credit crisis in America and the World at large, I am surprised that these organisations can still get the capital to continue these kinds of operations.

I am with my wife on this one, the wife needs to have access to no means for creating any more debt. If she needs to spend money (food, etc) then she should have a budget and cash working funds only.

She is the abuser in an emotionally abusive relationship. That abuse HAS TO STOP. It will get worse once the credit cards are gone, and then the husband should leave with the kids,and start over, with rules on spending, or else evict the wife. If the wife is serious about a divorce, then start the proceedings. Otherwise, she's welcome to come back into the family as long as she obeys the rules on spending. No chances as she's already used them up.

I agree with all yuu've said and I have no idea why or where or how. But I see the advertisement every day.

applepansy

[gabelpa]

Going bankrupt in the USA only opens up a new avenue for debt. There are many lenders out there begging for the business of bankrupt people. They are advertised as "fresh start" programs.

Taking out bankruptcy should be a last resort. If the OP is in the USA it won't give the wife a wake up call.

applepansy

I see sorry didn't realise that in the UK its 3-5 years before a bankrupt can usually take on anymore debt.

But I do think avenues need to be closed or she needs to get a job herself

-Charley

[lilered]

The advice I mostly give...is how to deal with Oneself. Because that is the only thing we can exercise any type of real control over.

As for her bills...the only thing you can do is make her aware she is responsible for her debts. Once she loses her credit cards the problem is in part solved...

Peace be unto you

bert10

bert10, I am a little perplexed. If a couple is married then they are both responsible for the debt accumulated during marriage. If this is true, then if one of them continues to spend excessively, debt will continue to accumulate for both until the spending is stopped or until something legally is done to seperate their debt.

It therefore follows that the first steps should be to take control of the fianaces, credit cards, etc. to stop the bleeding, then and only then can a budget be determined that will address current allowable expenditures as well as start to address paying down the debt.

The problem may or may not be solved and only when the offending spouse realizes the problem, accepts the responsilbity for their actions, and accepts the controls being placed, if this fails, then Professional help may be in order, but the marriage may still fail.

I personally know of a case where all the steps were taken, but the wife continued to sneak to purchase items by borrowing money from friends and relatives and finally the marriage disolved as a result.

[applepansy]

I see sorry didn't realise that in the UK its 3-5 years before a bankrupt can usually take on anymore debt.

But I do think avenues need to be closed or she needs to get a job herself

-Charley

I agree.

Here the bankruptcy is on your record for seven years. It does stop some lenders but I'm shocked at the number of car dealers, etc. who are offering credit to people who have gone bankrupt.

My BIL took out bankruptcy a few years back. The month it was finalized he got more mail for credit cards and such than people who buy a new home. It was nuts.!

We need to change our laws. Maybe that will happen with this recession.

applepansy

[MorningStar]

I know this will be super helpful (not), but this guy and his wife were on Oprah years ago and she would not stop spending for anything! He didn't want to divorce her, but he also wanted to protect himself financially for if he had to. There was something he did legally to state that all debt incurred from that point was her responsibility and not his (either he was in the process or was told that's what he needed to do). She spent the entire show laughing everything off. Her husband was concerned about the kids' college in the future. She said, "Our kids are smart. They'll get scholarships." She didn't appear to be taking him seriously at all.

Anyway, I would suggest talking to a lawyer about what you can do to protect yourself. If you divorce her, I don't think you will be able to divorce her debt in the process.

[ruthiechan]

I agree with those telling you that you need to take control. She needs to go on a cash only basis. BUT, that will be difficult if you have a joint account. However, here's how you get around that. Get another checking out at the same bank your joint account is. Put all of your money into your account, the transfer is free and quick and painless via online transfers. Transfer all automatic withdrawals to your account. Leave only enough money in the account for items that you know are going go through the joint account.

After you do this, THEN tell her what you have done and why. If you say anything before hand she may try to thwart you.

My husband and I do this btw. All the money goes to his account. Anything I make or obtain (ie: financial aid for school) goes into the joint. I pretty much only have school funds so when I go grocery shopping and what not I have to go through my husband. He drops funds into the joint account. My husband also takes care of all the finances. The only thing I do is mail the rent check. If I want to do anything extra, I gotta ask for the funds for it. It works out better that way. But, he can also trust me not to go spending money for food he puts in there on other things.

For you, I would suggest that you also close the joint account. But, you need both of you to do that, and that is where my thoughts tread on unfamiliar territory.

Are the credit cards in your name? I would call them and cancel them all. You can cut up the cards but she can always call and ask for a new one, especially if she is an authorized user. If you are the main person on the account you can remove her authorized user status. She can also always accept new debt in her name.

Talking to a lawyer is definitely a good idea.

I would also suggest speaking to your Bishop. I have the feeling that you are going to need to get food orders from the church soon, if not already. He needs to be made aware of what is going on, and what you are planning to do.

Other thoughts I have are to take over the grocery shopping, and ALL spending, including gas money. She can still use the car to see friends, but if she needs more gas YOU buy it. Do not hand her $20 to spend on gas because she's only going to put five in the tank and buy crap with the rest.

Definitely return all the items she bought. I know she's hiding things but it could be that she's doing that not because she knows it's wrong but because she doesn't want to make you mad. There IS a difference. She needs professional help.

Inform friends and family that you are trying to avoid bankruptcy, so to please do NOT loan either of you any money because you know that you won't be able to pay it back, even if one of you were to ask. Tell them you have a plan if you want, but this way people are being made aware without you vilifying your wife.

I am so sorry you are going through this. You and your wife are in my prayers.