Is Jesus God?

[Vort]

As FYI, it is not traditional trinitarian teaching that Jesus is Father God. It's Oneness Pentecostals who teach that.

Nice to see you again, PC. Can you explain your understanding of the trinity? What does it mean to avoid "confounding the persons" and "dividing the substance"? How is this accomplished in (your view of) the teaching of the trinity?

[skippy740]

I will answer the OP with some verses:

John 17:11 John 17

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 20:17 John 20

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now for some Book of Mormon scripture:

Alma 11:44 Alma 11

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mosiah 15:1-9 Mosiah 15

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

8 And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men—

9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.

However, nothing I write or quote will change anyone's mind or heart.

Moroni 10:4-5 Moroni 10

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Joseph Smith - History Joseph Smith—History 1

I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Edited April 8, 2009 by skippy740

[prisonchaplain]

Vort, My understanding of the Trinity is that:

1. The Father is God.

2. The Son is God.

3. The Holy spirit is God.

4. There is only one God.

5. The three persons are the one God.

The key difference between LDS and trinitarian teaching, as it's been explained to me, is that LDS believe it is enough to say that the three are one in purpose, whereas trinitarians teach that the oness is of essence also. Oneness Pentecostals would be accused of "confounding the persons," by saying that God is one person, appearing in three modalities. LDS theology might be accused of "dividing the substance," by teaching that God is three essences.

Edited April 8, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[skippy740]

I would like to paint out a picture here about why Thomas said "My Lord, My God".

Thomas is correct and the Lord did confirm it.

God the Father (Elohim) directed the creation of this world. God the Father cannot create anything that is IMPERFECT. When He created Adam and Eve (they were a perfect creation), he told them to "multply and replenish the earth" but not to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

This was a LAW given... that was meant to be broken. Therefore, transgression of the law entered into the world... and we are all here now through the great human family.

Well, only those who are PERFECT can return to live with God the Father. There cannot be ONE SPOT of sin on "our garments" because God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.

So, there must be a great sacrifice given unto the children of men. That gift was the Atonement of Jesus Christ (Jehovah of the Old Testament). Through Him and Only through Him can all men be saved.

Thus the LAW (justice) and MERCY can be given.

Now, if someone SAVES you... wouldn't you call Him God? Is he God the Father? No. But He is God of the New Testament - the New Covenant that we make with God the Father. And it is by obedience to the laws and ordinances that Christ has established through His church that we can progress on the path to return to live with God the Father - because Christ purchased our souls through His blood.

All we have to do is accept and covenant with God through Christ to follow Him.

Now. this is the important part for you to ponder:

How can God the Father give the LAW and then sacrifice HIMSELF to provide MERCY? It is inconsistent with the laws. To fulfill the law, it must come from OUTSIDE the person who GAVE the law. Only then can the law be fulfilled.

(Note: This is my way of explaining this. It's not perfect... but I'd like to think it's pretty darn close.)

Edited April 8, 2009 by skippy740
made correction in post

[Justice]

God the Father (Elohim) created this world.

Do you mean the world was created under His direction?

[skippy740]

Do you mean the world was created under His direction?

Thank you. That is correct.

I have now edited my post to reflect that.

[pam]

There is a third answer which I believe would make more sense to Jim and which describes LDS beliefs and that is simply that Jesus is not God the Father but along with God the Father and the Holy Ghost forms the Godhead. Saying that in LDS beliefs Jesus is God only serves to confuse people IMO.

Thank you. That is exactly what I was trying to say. That to me says it exactly as it is. Sometimes I think when simple questions are asked..simple answers are the best way to answer. Especially when someone is just investigating.

[HiJolly]

Vort, My understanding of the Trinity is that:

1. The Father is God.

2. The Son is God.

3. The Holy spirit is God.

4. There is only one God.

5. The three persons are the one God.

Perfect. I agree.

The key difference between LDS and trinitarian teaching, as it's been explained to me, is that LDS believe it is enough to say that the three are one in purpose, whereas trinitarians teach that the oness is of essence also. Oneness Pentecostals would be accused of "confounding the persons," by saying that God is one person, appearing in three modalities. LDS theology might be accused of "dividing the substance," by teaching that God is three essences.

Mormons that believe Joseph's teachings given in the King Follett sermon also believe that the three Gods (that are One God) are of *one* like essence, or intelligence.

The wrench is in the works when we add that *I am* also of the same intelligence.

HiJolly

[tubaloth]

Let me take a little different approach that I think most would bring up, but wanted to give the “short answer.”

From reading most of the posts (I skimmed the longer ones) the key thing is really what the definition of a God is. If we are confused on that definition then obviously there is going to be some confusion.

God is the one that has all power, and glory, and all perfection. The key is the point about having all power. This is Heavenly Father. He has all power; there is nothing God can do to gain more power. God has a resurrection glorified body (of flesh and bones).

Now is where things get confusing. Jesus (Jehovah) did not have all power. Jesus (at first) was not a God, he was a spirit child of his Father in Heaven. BUT (this is the key point) because Jesus was called to be savior and redeemer (to be part of the Godhead). Christ then became God really by calling (and authorty). Now God’s authority (and power) was part of Christ’s authority and power. Christ’s power to create this earth was not something he had himself, but it was the power God gave him. Thus they were One! They worked together to accomplish Heavenly Father’s work. The LDS church needed to call this something and titled it “Divine investiture.” And thus answers the question of how a spirit (no physical body) can be a God.

The way I see it, is more like any other calling in the church. When I get a calling, I’m set apart or given authority to perform my calling. The whole deal with the priesthood is not that I have power myself, but that I get part of God’s power to perform His work. The same is true with Christ (just to a much greater magnitude). Thus one of the tests of this life is to see if I can handle power properly, before I get more power...

As Christ passed through this mortal life, the scripture teach Christ grew from “grace to grace” (see section 93). Because Christ past the test of this mortality he then gained all his Father had (section 93 calles it "fulness"). Yes that means Christ gained all power and then become a God in the full meaning of the word.

Christ was the perfect example for all of us! He came to earth and overcame it all! Thus really he is one with God (same likeness) and invites all of us to become One like they are! We can become one, or really we can become one with the Godhead.

Edited April 8, 2009 by tubaloth

[richlittell]

I think rameumptom said it best (somehwhere around the second page), that anyone, LDS or non can understand it.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Just remember. God doesn't do "isms." To apply man made terms such as monotheism, polytheism, mormonism, etc is to apply man made logic to a being who's ways "are not your ways."

[Traveler]

Vort, My understanding of the Trinity is that:

1. The Father is God.

2. The Son is God.

3. The Holy spirit is God.

4. There is only one God.

5. The three persons are the one God.

The key difference between LDS and trinitarian teaching, as it's been explained to me, is that LDS believe it is enough to say that the three are one in purpose, whereas trinitarians teach that the oness is of essence also. Oneness Pentecostals would be accused of "confounding the persons," by saying that God is one person, appearing in three modalities. LDS theology might be accused of "dividing the substance," by teaching that God is three essences.

It appears to me that the key difference between LDS and Trinitarian teaching is the understanding of that G-d the son is the mediator with G-d the Father and G-d the Holy Ghost. Because of the fall man must have a mediator (and there is only one in the singular sense) and that without Jesus Christ as the mediator and singular G-d, man has no access to any of the other G-ds.

I see no reflection of the mediator in any explanation specific to Trinitarian teachings of the G-dhead.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

OK, most of you know me if you are a regular user. This question came up on another thread and I was asked to post it as a new thread. As some of you know, I am not LDS. I am born again. No religion, just a believer in Jesus. In my faith Jesus is God. I have come to understand that this is not the case with the LDS faith. This is why I believe.

1. The introduction to John's Gospel. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (The Word is God). ....and the Word became flesh. (God became flesh..ie Jesus)

2. John 20:19 Thomas declares Jesus as "my lord, my God" and Jesus states how more blessed those will be who believe this on faith alone.

3. John 10:30 Jesus says that I and the Father are one.

There is more, but this will do for now. Now I know that many places in the Bible talk about Father, Son and Spirit as separate persons, but just as you are body, soul and spirit, God is Father, Son and Spirit and you can speak of them separately. I also would not like to get into the whole trinity thing. It has already been tossed around.

My question for you are these, (from the LDS perspective)

1. Is Jesus God?

2. When you pray, who is it that you pray to?

3. If Jesus is not God, then was Thomas wrong and Jesus confirmed a lie?

4. Is there more than one God?

I will promise you this, I will not respond to any answer. I just want to sit back and learn.

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this site. It shows your good faith to allow different point of view. I do not think other such sites from other religions would be as friendly to outsiders, God Bless, Jim

1. Yes. He is the only Begotten of the flesh by the FATHER. The Son being separated by physical bodies but in unison with the Plan of Salvation.

2. Formal prays are done with addressing the FATHER and not the Savior. You close it in the name of the Savior. Informal, throughout the day, I would converse with the Savior and a few others across the veil.

3. There are three GODs which is considered for our salvation, GOD the FATHER, Jesus the Christ - the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Each is unique and serves a purpose for us.

4. Yes. But for this world or our area of domain, we have our FATHER whom we worship only. As time progress for you, in your quest for further truths, you will learn that the universe is organized in the same fashion as the government of the church.

[adobo44]

ok, most of you know me if you are a regular user. This question came up on another thread and i was asked to post it as a new thread. As some of you know, i am not lds. I am born again. No religion, just a believer in jesus. In my faith jesus is god. I have come to understand that this is not the case with the lds faith. This is why i believe.

1. The introduction to john's gospel. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god. (the word is god). ....and the word became flesh. (god became flesh..ie jesus)

2. John 20:19 thomas declares jesus as "my lord, my god" and jesus states how more blessed those will be who believe this on faith alone.

3. John 10:30 jesus says that i and the father are one.

There is more, but this will do for now. Now i know that many places in the bible talk about father, son and spirit as seperate persons, but just as you are body, soul and spirit, god is father, son and spirit and you can speak of them separately. I also would not like to get into the whole trinity thing. It has already been tossed around.

My question for you are these, (from the lds perspective)

1. Is jesus god?

2. When you pray, who is it that you pray to?

3. If jesus is not god, then was thomas wrong and jesus confirmed a lie?

4. Is there more than one god?

I will promise you this, i will not respond to any answer. I just want to sit back and learn.

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this site. It shows your good faith to allow different point of view. I do not think other such sites from other religions would be as friendly to outsiders, god bless, jim

yes,jesus is absolutely god(articles of faith),he is the son of the father,and is also god!!!

[Gerasim]

5 Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end. (3. Ne 15:5)

(3. Ne 9:15-22)

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

16 I came unto my own, and my own received me not. And the scriptures concerning my coming are fulfilled.

17 And as many as have received me, to them have I given to become the sons of God; and even so will I to as many as shall believe on my name, for behold, by me redemption cometh, and in me is the law of Moses fulfilled.

18 I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

19 And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.

20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

21 Behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin.

22 Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.

8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. (Mosiah 3:8)

[Chonn]

Hello everyone,

Just came across this site while doing some research and reading. And I'd like to discuss the items that were stated here. Please correct me if I unintentionally break any forum rules.

I'd like to start a dialog with two verses.

John 5:16

So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

- The Jews knew exactly what He meant...

John 10:30

I and the Father are one. Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

-They understood his claim for being God and were trying to stone him for it. My question to this is... Was Jesus lying?

Jesus was both 100% God and 100% man. Jesus knew hunger John 4:6 (being a man) but also knew thoughts of men as God would Matthew 9:4 (also pointing out the Jesus forgives sins, the Jews knew exactly what he meant by this and said he was blaspheming, for only God forgives sins. But then Jesus proves what he said by healing the man)

These are just 2 examples of Jesus being God and just from the book of John. As for the humanity and Godhead of Jesus. I can provide more examples.

Looking forward to a reply, Sincerely,

CH

[Blackmarch]

OK, most of you know me if you are a regular user. This question came up on another thread and I was asked to post it as a new thread. As some of you know, I am not LDS. I am born again. No religion, just a believer in Jesus. In my faith Jesus is God. I have come to understand that this is not the case with the LDS faith. This is why I believe.

1. The introduction to John's Gospel. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (The Word is God). ....and the Word became flesh. (God became flesh..ie Jesus)

2. John 20:19 Thomas declares Jesus as "my lord, my God" and Jesus states how more blessed those will be who believe this on faith alone.

3. John 10:30 Jesus says that I and the Father are one.

There is more, but this will do for now. Now I know that many places in the Bible talk about Father, Son and Spirit as seperate persons, but just as you are body, soul and spirit, God is Father, Son and Spirit and you can speak of them separately. I also would not like to get into the whole trinity thing. It has already been tossed around.

My question for you are these, (from the LDS perspective)

1. Is Jesus God?

2. When you pray, who is it that you pray to?

3. If Jesus is not God, then was Thomas wrong and Jesus confirmed a lie?

4. Is there more than one God?

I will promise you this, I will not respond to any answer. I just want to sit back and learn.

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this site. It shows your good faith to allow different point of view. I do not think other such sites from other religions would be as friendly to outsiders, God Bless, Jim

AS an LDS I do not Believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father (which is whom i pray to).

But that Jesus is a God, and also Jesus always will represent God, and will be exactly like him both in deed and appearance and nature. What What God says is what Christ says.

(so in other words if you did not have the Holy ghost to tell you, you would not be able to tell if they switched spots)

[Maureen]

AS an LDS I do not Believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father (which is whom i pray to).

But that Jesus is a God, and also Jesus always will represent God, and will be exactly like him both in deed and appearance and nature. What What God says is what Christ says.

(so in other words if you did not have the Holy ghost to tell you, you would not be able to tell if they switched spots)

Blackmarch, if the Godhead is made up of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, would you agree then that Jesus is God the Son?

M.

[Blackmarch]

Blackmarch, if the Godhead is made up of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, would you agree then that Jesus is God the Son?

M.

I wouldn't have a problem with that saying, altho as it's not something that i'm accustomed to, it would be a little strange for me. I probably wouldn't end up using that form as much either as it could be confusing to someone who doesn't have a clear idea or concept about God (or doesn't understand the concept as I do).

However I do not have reason to call the Holy Ghost a God in the same way I could for Jesus or Heavenly father, beyond how the other spirits were called gods.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Blackmarch

[Maureen]

I wouldn't have a problem with that saying, altho as it's not something that i'm accustomed to, it would be a little strange for me. I probably wouldn't end up using that form as much either as it could be confusing to someone who doesn't have a clear idea or concept about God (or doesn't understand the concept as I do).

However I do not have reason to call the Holy Ghost a God in the same way I could for Jesus or Heavenly father, beyond how the other spirits were called gods.

How do you see the Godhead; as three Gods or two Gods and a Holy Spirit? The BofM says:

And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. (3Nephi 11:36)

M.

[Blackmarch]

How do you see the Godhead; as three Gods or two Gods and a Holy Spirit? The BofM says:

And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. (3Nephi 11:36)

M.

I believe there is only one head god, God the Father. The reason I do not believe there are two head gods is because Christ gives all the glory to the Father, and submits to Him.

As for being like God father the only god I know of that that is exactly like Him is Jesus Christ.

[rameumptom]

Blackmarch, if the Godhead is made up of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, would you agree then that Jesus is God the Son?

M.

I have no problem with the term: God the Son. Now, it would be somewhat different between my understanding and that of a Trinitarian. Still, I believe Jesus to be God from the premortal existence, and is now fully God as a resurrected and fully glorified being, with his Father.

[LDSChristian]

Just now saw this. I think this answer puts things into perspective:

Jesus Christ is the SON of God.

[Dravin]

Just now saw this. I think this answer puts things into perspective:

Jesus Christ is the SON of God.

Pretty much every Christian on the planet (if not every Christian) can make that statement. A Catholic, a Jehovah's Witness, and a Mormon can all utter those same words and still hold different ideas about the nature of Jesus' divinity. So it's one of those phrases that seems like it'd clarify things but on its own doesn't necessarily do such.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Dravin

[LDSChristian]

Pretty much every Christian on the planet (if not every Christian) can make that statement. A Catholic, a Jehovah's Witness, and a Mormon can all utter those same words and still hold different ideas about the nature of Jesus' divinity. So it's one of those phrases that seems like it'd clarify things but on its own doesn't necessarily do such.

Christ is our Lord our God while God the Father is the one true God as Christ himself taught. The nature of God the Father and Jesus Christ are pretty clear in the scriptures.