Need Help

[Hemidakota]

Questions can be good. I ask lots of questions....

Not true. Jesus Christ was a man. Jesus Christ is God. If you want to nuance it and mention the Father, it is true that the Bible does not teach that directly; but Jesus does say that he does nothing but what He saw the Father do, whatever that means.

Where does the Bible say that? I like bytor's answers on this one.

Sure there is. It's in the Book of Mormon. That's evidence. Also in the History of the Church, where Joseph is talking about them. Not evidence? No, not PROOF. But as posted here, the word used was 'evidence', not 'proof'. The case was overstated by somebody.

Do you doubt that there are at least as many peoples that we never did hear of? I'll bet there are 1,000's of civilizations that didn't leave any clear written evidence of their passing. Especially in the New World.

Zen: If you meet the Buddha on the path, kill him. Time to go Zen.

I agree with your sister. It's obvious that evolution is true, that the age of the earth is in the billions of years. We watch evolution happen in labs across the world every day. For some LDS, this is a huge stumbing block.

I study everything I get the opportunity to study. Science and religion mostly. At the moment I'm learning more about the Hindu religion. Paganism, Buddhism and other traditions and/or religions have much truth that we can learn from.

And I'm an active LDS parent of 9 kids, etc. Since I believe in evolution I guess I can't say I'm TBM anymore, but I *feel* TBM...

HiJolly

It was not science that prove the earth is billions of years old [using our current time measurement], but those who had seen its prior creation know the true age of the earth and would easily dispute man’s creation story called evolution was a mere proposal of partial truths mixed with fables of men. What is a bad assumption by this community of false religions and false science is to think this earth was created here. Claiming an age of rock strata, an obit around a glorified world [star], or pretending what was, just doesn’t cut it as truths.

We do not know the exact age of the earth or why the previous world failed in at the animal creation. We can assume based on our academic learning’s but will only failed in the attempt in completing an accurate picture of what was.

Religion is true science. True science is true religion or the Gospel of Christ.

[Hemidakota]

I'm not baptist, either.

I don't think anything is bad or evil, I just don't think it's credible. The Book of Mormon, since it is a compromised source, is NOT legit evidence for anything. Again, we have records of the Hebrews, and of the Egyptians, the Chinese, Mesopotamian, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Aboriginee... the only

source for the Nephites and Lamanites is the BOM and your imaginiation. I am not asking for skeletons of the Nephites, I am asking for someone to explain why this is so credible when there is obviously nothing to stand on.

If someone is going to tell me they have the truth they need something to back it up, and I mean something solid, not just "But it all fits together! Go home and pray about it!" That's not solid. Religion is a serious issue to so many people. The LDS teachings contradict a lot of the basic, original teachings of those within the Judeo-Christian-Pantheon [though the main difference in those is the idea of Jesus Christ as a prophet rather than a Savior]. If I were a Muslim and converted to Mormonism, and Islam was really the correct path, I would be in serious trouble. Correct me if I am wrong here, although I am pretty sure I'm not, the purpose of Missionaries is to bring the "Good Word" to the whole entire world, and to convert them... Pretend for a second that the LDS faith is not the correct one. How do you think all this would go over in the afterlife??

I have a different kind of personality, so please don't take anything out of context. I am trying to have a mature debate so that I can understand why you say these things are true. Although to be honest with you I haven't gotten anything concrete, just examples. I do have some references I can put in later that I've had written down for weeks. . .

Perhaps a five minutes of gazing beyond the veil would change your life....

[bytor2112]

I love my sister, too. However, I don't believe there was ever a requirement for joining the LDS Church. I know the Bible fairly well - I grew up on Scripture. That doesn't change the fact that this faith is not exactly credible. It relies on faith only. I have done all the exploring I need, and have finally landed in a good spot. I just have a hard time understanding why the followers of the LDS faith believe things so steadfastly when next to your intuition and own personal FEELINGS there's nothing to stand on. It is very contradictory to the original Christian teachings which have not changed since the dawn of their time. I understand the Godhead, also, and it is not separate, it is all a part of the same. =\

I would be interested in hearing why you believe that our faith is not credible and maybe you could explain your assertion that our beliefs are contradictory to original Christian teachings. Historically speaking, your just mistaken, original Christian teachings have been changed by man over the past many years. So, please add some evidences for your claims. As for the issue of "feelings", you really do not understand. These feelings if you will, are the Holy Spirit and it is so much more than a "feeling". Sounds like you have been seeking evidence from sources that malign the church.

[Maxel]

HiJolly, don't let this be a problem for you. A TBM can still balance the reality of evolution with the Gospel. The Bible and modern-day scripture says nothing HOW God made the Earth, only that He is the Supreme Creator. We know WHY he created the world, but now HOW.

Agreed. In my opinion, being a TBM means putting one's faith first and foremost in God, and being willing to do anything God requires of us- including die, if it came to that. Other than that, a TBM can be left-wing, right-wing, no-wing; believe in evolution or intelligent design; prefer peanut butter to jelly or vice verse.

[Islander]

I'm not baptist, either.

I don't think anything is bad or evil, I just don't think it's credible. The Book of Mormon, since it is a compromised source, is NOT legit evidence for anything. Again, we have records of the Hebrews, and of the Egyptians, the Chinese, Mesopotamian, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Aboriginee... the only

source for the Nephites and Lamanites is the BOM and your imaginiation. I am not asking for skeletons of the Nephites, I am asking for someone to explain why this is so credible when there is obviously nothing to stand on.

If someone is going to tell me they have the truth they need something to back it up, and I mean something solid, not just "But it all fits together! Go home and pray about it!" That's not solid. Religion is a serious issue to so many people. The LDS teachings contradict a lot of the basic, original teachings of those within the Judeo-Christian-Pantheon [though the main difference in those is the idea of Jesus Christ as a prophet rather than a Savior]. If I were a Muslim and converted to Mormonism, and Islam was really the correct path, I would be in serious trouble. Correct me if I am wrong here, although I am pretty sure I'm not, the purpose of Missionaries is to bring the "Good Word" to the whole entire world, and to convert them... Pretend for a second that the LDS faith is not the correct one. How do you think all this would go over in the afterlife??

I have a different kind of personality, so please don't take anything out of context. I am trying to have a mature debate so that I can understand why you say these things are true. Although to be honest with you I haven't gotten anything concrete, just examples. I do have some references I can put in later that I've had written down for weeks. . .

Your statement that the LDS faith "has nothing to stand on" denotes that you have arrived here ill-prepared to discuss the subject. I will not question your motives but indeed your methods. It seems to me you made up your mind based on limited information and skipped the part where you researched the foundational elements of the religion. That strategy seems disingenuous.

[bytor2112]

Here is an interesting article.....The Maya and Mormonism

[Still_Small_Voice]

I love my sister, too. However, I don't believe there was ever a requirement for joining the LDS Church. I know the Bible fairly well - I grew up on Scripture. That doesn't change the fact that this faith is not exactly credible. It relies on faith only. I have done all the exploring I need, and have finally landed in a good spot. I just have a hard time understanding why the followers of the LDS faith believe things so steadfastly when next to your intuition and own personal FEELINGS there's nothing to stand on. It is very contradictory to the original Christian teachings which have not changed since the dawn of their time. I understand the Godhead, also, and it is not separate, it is all a part of the same. =\

If you have found a religious belief that brings you close to God I commend you.

But I have had more than just personal feelings as a witness that Jesus Christ leads the prophet of our church. The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are not contrary to the primitive teachings of Christ's church when He organized it Himself on the earth about 2,000 years ago.

I invite you to explore and read teachings from www.LDS.org to find out what we truly believe.

[Vort]

My sister has been asking alot of questions.. she is meeting with missionaries, but she still has alot of hang ups.. at times I wonder what her true intentions are, but my role as sister and lds member is to be supportive and answer to the best of my ability

Good for you. She's not interested, and judging by her "questions" she's not sincere, so I personally wouldn't bother. But then, I'm an unfriendly antisocial outcast, so what do I know?

she is all over the place in our discussions.. she has evolution theories, she tosses in pagan beliefs, buddhist ideals, and for good measure her catholic background.

so how would you respond to her statement..

Like so...

I still think the two books( BOM and Bible) contradict each other dogmatically. -- I asked her how so--Well for one God according to the Bible is not and never was man.

False. The Bible never says any such thing. The Bible never talks about God's "origins". Of course, neither does the Book of Mormon.

So how can she suppose this constitutes a "difference" between the Bible and the Book of Mormon? We may never know.

I suspect she's just blowing smoke.

Two, we were not in existence before we came to Earth.

The Bible suggests we were. The Book of Mormon says nothing about the matter. How is this a difference between the two?

I suspect she's just blowing smoke.

Three, there is no evidence of Nephites or Lamanites. =\

How would she know? Can she tell us what a Nephite (or Lamanite) would look like, or what sorts of artifacts they would leave behind?

The Jews, the Egyptians, the Mesopotamians, the Aboriginees, the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons we all have records of...

Is she suggesting that no one ever existed on earth without leaving behind a record that we have found?

I can accept it as a legit religion, I just don't agree... Read More with it or understand because of certain things. =)

Are there some words missing here? Maybe a descriptive phrase or some nouns or something? Because this ain't making much sense.

I am just having a hard time reconciling some things in regards to what I was taught about the Bible. =\

Yet none of her arguments about supposed Book of Mormon (or LDS) discrepancies with the Bible hold any water.

Then again the Earth is more than 6,000 years old and I believe in evolution, and no we did NOT come from monkeys that is a huge misconception. So it's really a difficult subject. Heh.

What is a "really difficult subject"? Whether the LDS religion (or the Book of Mormon) is true? What does that have to do with the Earth's age or whether people "come from monkeys"?

I draw three conclusions about your sister:

• She has no interest in actually investigating the Church.
• She has no interest in actually finding out the truth about the Church.
• If you could take her to Central America and show her a 2000-year-old sign saying "Welcome to Zarahemla", she wouldn't care.

Okay, well, I guess that's actually only one conclusion.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi smitchell,

Quick question: Let's say tomorrow, non-LDS archaeologists discovered the sword of Laban, the city of Zarahemla, Nephite and Lamanite gravesites, and buildings with 'reformed Egyptian' carved into their walls. If that happened, would you repent your words and seek to be baptized into the Mormon church?

Thanks,

LM

[FlaviusHambonius]

I have been reading the book 'Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One's Testimony In The Face of Criticism and Doubt' by Michael R. Ash.

I believe that this book can be of tremendous help for those in the church struggling with issues of the church and I also believe that it could be of great help to non-LDS investigating the church. I also wish that every LDS critic would read this book.

[smitchell88]

Loudmouth Mormon: No I would not because such things do not exist.

I have found beliefs for myself and I want to investigate the church to understand it and learn about it.

Wow I have never seen so many convenient references in my life...As far as the Bible suggesting things, it also suggests that the Earth is flat and that the sun is the center of the universe, and thanks to intelligent, open-minded people we now know those are not true.

Because there is no evidence, in the Bible or real life, that we ever existed before "coming" to Earth, you cannot tell me that the testimonies of those who came before us prove to us that the Earth is billions of years old. As I recall, some very intelligent scientists discovered these things, namely Charles Darwin for evolution, not some spirits....

The whole point here is to NOT use the BOM as a reference since in this discussion it is in a very compromised situation.

The Godhead is totally separate. They are all One, but at the same time they are separate beings. Just like ice, water, and steam are all separate, but they all come from one source - water, or in this case God.

You only say that the original teachings have not been valid because this is what you were told and just because this is the way religion works, I doubt you were taught unbiasedly. Even when I was Catholic I was taught with bias...

I don't know if any of you were ever told anything other than he was a great prophet, but Joseph Smith was known for lying and making things up, and he was a magic user. He used a seer's stone. Besides your faith, there is no credibility or evidence for what you believe. It is all very convenient the things that "plug in" and make sense when you compare them to the Bible.

I did not come ill-prepared. If what I know concerning your beliefs didn't come straight from a missionary's mouth, I'll be darned. I have had several "lessons" and if there is something more that I am not going to find out unless or until I join the church then that is just deceitful. I have been given many explanations of things but never any real answers. Again, if someone is going to tell me that something is true, they need to have something concrete. Faith and the BOM are not concrete when it supposedly concerns one's salvation.

You know that link to The Maya and Mormonism looked interested until I started reading it and it said "LDS scholars." Why not just regular theologians and archaeologists? Oh because then it wouldn't agree with what is currently believed by the LDS church....

I do thank the person for their sentiments in commending me for finding something that works for me. I am just trying to get something solid... if I told you that the Nephites before leaving Jerusalem were actually Native Americans and the first people were Native American and moved to Jerusalem because God told me that everyone else was wrong, how would you react?

[bytebear]

I would do a little research before condemning Smith for using so-called "magic". Here is an article (from a non-LDS source) about how many Old Testiment prophets used what people today would consider occultic practices.

Divination, magic & occultic activity in the Bible

I guess I just get frustrated when people claim to understand the Bible, and then accuse Joseph Smith of improper practices that were common to many prophets of the Bible.

[Vort]

smitchell88 is not amenable to education, bytebear. She already "knows" what she thinks she knows, and no amount of logical argumentation, fact-presenting, or history will convince her otherwise. She's got it all figured out, you see. Perhaps when she reaches 25 she will expand her world a bit and begin to suspect she's not quite so omniscient. Until then, don't hold your breath.

[bytebear]

Oh, I just think she needs to step outside of her comfort zone just a little. It's hard to admit that your own religious leaders have betrayed you. It's really the biggest flaw the "traditional Christians" have. They are not honest about what LDS theology is, nor about what the Bible really teaches. But things are improving. "How Wide a Divide?" is an honest look at LDS theology by an evangeical. It doesn't rely on strawman arguements or tired false conclusions so most evangelical bookstores won't even carry it. In other words, Mormonism makes sense in the correct context, both historically and theologically.

[Traveler]

Loudmouth Mormon: No I would not because such things do not exist.

I have found beliefs for myself and I want to investigate the church to understand it and learn about it.

.....

Greetings: sorry for joining so late. Allow me to introduce myself. I am an engineer and scientist. I have worked most of my life consulting with businesses concerning automation and robotics. I am LDS and a strong supporter of evolution.

May I ask a simple question: For which do you think there is more evidence and understanding:

1. That electrons exist according to our current paradigm?

or

2. That the Book or Mormon is historically more accurate than any other published work in the Western hemisphere within 100 years of when the Book of Mormon was published?

The Traveler

[smitchell88]

The electron exists according to our current paradigm. Obviously. The BOM is nothing but convenient explanations...

I am no longer a Catholic and so that was irrelevant. There are so many things I asked about or implied of that still have not been answered. It always reverts back to, "Well you have to have faith," or "The Book of Mormon is so accurate!" or "She doesn't understand the theology." I understand the theology very well, as well as the historicity and the logic, and because I understand it so well I don't get how anyone can believe it. THAT is the problem.

By the way, what do you think a seer's stone is?? I guess you don't if you deny that Joseph Smith used magick. I also wonder how do you justify all the tall tales he told? It may seem like I am picking but I think it is relevant...

[Islander]

The electron exists according to our current paradigm. Obviously. The BOM is nothing but convenient explanations...

I am no longer a Catholic and so that was irrelevant. There are so many things I asked about or implied of that still have not been answered. It always reverts back to, "Well you have to have faith," or "The Book of Mormon is so accurate!" or "She doesn't understand the theology." I understand the theology very well, as well as the historicity and the logic, and because I understand it so well I don't get how anyone can believe it. THAT is the problem.

By the way, what do you think a seer's stone is?? I guess you don't if you deny that Joseph Smith used magick. I also wonder how do you justify all the tall tales he told? It may seem like I am picking but I think it is relevant...

Obviously you came on to the forum under false pretenses. You are not trying to grasp certain aspects of the BOM or the religion at large. You are coming to contend. You do not have to believe anything you want. You are free to adhere to anything you like and pick and choose what you like. You are afforded that privilege. You do not have to believe the BOM, Joseph or anything else as stated by the Church of Jesus christ of Latter day Saints.

I suggest you move on to other more profitable things and activities in your life.

[HiJolly]

Faith and the BOM are not concrete when it supposedly concerns one's salvation.

Let's leave the BoM out of it for a second.

"Faith ... [is] not concrete when it supposedly concerns one's salvation."

Where do you get that idea?

HiJolly

[smitchell88]

I wasn't originally going to entertain the idea until my sister "They Call Me Mom" posted for me.

The BOM is not the most historically accurate, it is the most mythologically reasonable... it plugs in, but does not have any evidence. Also in the Bible it is taught of a false prophet, and to beware of him... I guess that's out the window!

I have every reason to question the BOM and the LDS teachings because I have people telling me it is true and trying to convert me. How are my questions not relevant? The credibility has not been confirmed, and the noncredibility of your Prophet's actions in his child-/young-adulthood have not been justified... AGAIN, the fact of the matter is it is being presented as truth with nothing to back it up. I need something concrete with believable origins... I have not received anything as of yet. That is my intention. Until I am completely and reasonably convinced I will stick to what I know to really make sense and has historical and scientific basis... You probably don't care, but you should at least understand my intent...

[bytor2112]

I wasn't originally going to entertain the idea until my sister "They Call Me Mom" posted for me.

The BOM is not the most historically accurate, it is the most mythologically reasonable... it plugs in, but does not have any evidence. Also in the Bible it is taught of a false prophet, and to beware of him... I guess that's out the window!

I have every reason to question the BOM and the LDS teachings because I have people telling me it is true and trying to convert me. How are my questions not relevant? The credibility has not been confirmed, and the noncredibility of your Prophet's actions in his child-/young-adulthood have not been justified... AGAIN, the fact of the matter is it is being presented as truth with nothing to back it up. I need something concrete with believable origins... I have not received anything as of yet. That is my intention. Until I am completely and reasonably convinced I will stick to what I know to really make sense and has historical and scientific basis... You probably don't care, but you should at least understand my intent...

There are over thirteen million members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and many of those are converts....including me. The questions you have are not new questions, many members have had the same questions and used the same logical thinking as you....including me.

This is reality.....the truth will be revealed to the humble seeker by the Holy Spirit. Until you are truly ready to receive sacred, eternal truths you will no doubt continue down the road that you are on.

Members of the church are not dupes. They come from all walks of life. Doctors and engineers, scientists and politicians, the very wealthy and those from the most modest of circumstances. I know you think you understand our history and our theology.....I assure you that you don't. The things of God are only understood by the power of the Holy Spirit...........good luck on your journey. I can tell you that the Church has blessed my life enormously and through experiences to sacred to share I have come to know for myself, independent of any other person, that truth has been restored and the windows of heaven are again open.

[smitchell88]

My honest opinion is that there is no one true church. I have had to many experiences to believe that crock. My life has recently been blessed as well, and I haven't been to church in 3 years. I disagree with many Catholic teachings and many ideologies within the Judeo-Christian-Muslim pantheon...

And yes I do understand your history and theology... my mom used to tell me that about the Catholic church but I understand that just as well. The problem is because I reject it you think I don't understand. In reality, I reject it because I DO understand... I still don't think that particular faith is historically credible. Maybe it is true for you and those others only, but it is not true for everyone, and cannot be for everyone because of so many complications. I can't seem to reconcile many things... I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

[bytor2112]

My honest opinion is that there is no one true church. I have had to many experiences to believe that crock. My life has recently been blessed as well, and I haven't been to church in 3 years. I disagree with many Catholic teachings and many ideologies within the Judeo-Christian-Muslim pantheon...

And yes I do understand your history and theology... my mom used to tell me that about the Catholic church but I understand that just as well. The problem is because I reject it you think I don't understand. In reality, I reject it because I DO understand... I still don't think that particular faith is historically credible. Maybe it is true for you and those others only, but it is not true for everyone, and cannot be for everyone because of so many complications. I can't seem to reconcile many things... I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I am sorry, but you really don't understand, and it's not because you reject it. I can't explain it to you....again, good luck on your journey.

[pam]

Again we have a case that no matter what we as LDS say...and again this IS an Lds website...it won't matter. Again you have a case of someone who already has their mind made up and has come to try and convince us that we know not of what we speak.

Frankly I get tired of it.

[bytebear]

My honest opinion is that there is no one true church. I have had to many experiences to believe that crock. My life has recently been blessed as well, and I haven't been to church in 3 years. I disagree with many Catholic teachings and many ideologies within the Judeo-Christian-Muslim pantheon...

And yes I do understand your history and theology... my mom used to tell me that about the Catholic church but I understand that just as well. The problem is because I reject it you think I don't understand. In reality, I reject it because I DO understand... I still don't think that particular faith is historically credible. Maybe it is true for you and those others only, but it is not true for everyone, and cannot be for everyone because of so many complications. I can't seem to reconcile many things... I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

You claim to understand LDS theology, and you seem to be hung up on the character of Joseph Smith and his "magick" use, but you either are ignorant or choose to ignore the overwhelming evidence that his actions are not out of step with Biblical prophets. How can you rationalize your condemnation of one and justification of the other?

[TheyCallMeMom]

at times I wonder what her true intentions are, but my role as sister and lds member is to be supportive and answer to the best of my ability

Thank you all for your responses.. I think this has confirmed my initial assessment into her interrogation of my faith.