Need advice, may leave church

[kpatrey]

I've heard so many stories about people who leave the church because they were offended. I think I was so taken aback that something like that could happen. I am really a newbie in the church and my advise is probably not worth much! However, don't leave the church. I have looked at so many other places and I can tell you that this really is the restored church of Jesus Christ. I agree with others when they say take a break, visit a different ward in your area if that is a possibility. Turn to HF and Jesus in prayer with the matters that are weighing on your heart. I know that He will hear you and that He will answer your prayers. I have struggled with other parts in the past year but I can't imagine leaving. Please don't let someone's insensitivity push you away for good. Don't stay away too long because it then gets easier and easier to go down the wide path that many will follow. My thoughts and prayers are with you!

[bjw]

I've heard so many stories about people who leave the church because they were offended. I think I was so taken aback that something like that could happen. I am really a newbie in the church and my advise is probably not worth much! However, don't leave the church. I have looked at so many other places and I can tell you that this really is the restored church of Jesus Christ. I agree with others when they say take a break, visit a different ward in your area if that is a possibility. Turn to HF and Jesus in prayer with the matters that are weighing on your heart. I know that He will hear you and that He will answer your prayers. I have struggled with other parts in the past year but I can't imagine leaving. Please don't let someone's insensitivity push you away for good. Don't stay away too long because it then gets easier and easier to go down the wide path that many will follow. My thoughts and prayers are with you!

Thanks for the kind words. I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point. Our church may not be perfect, but having been in many bad churches in the past, I can say that our church is still the best. I have been in several protestant churches in the past, even being on the executive level in one mainline EV denomination, and I have never seen anything close to what I experienced back then. This church pulled me out of that darkness and I will always be grateful for that. I think when I look at the alternative at where I could be right now if it weren't for the LDS church, it makes me more and more thankful for my testimony and thankful for our church, despite the faults.

[bjw]

After much thought and prayer I have decided that it would be best for me to leave the LDS church. I just a few days ago found out about the Ira Fulton deal, and that compounded with everything else I have found out I just can't stay in any longer. I thank all the people I've met over the past few years and the friends I've made, I hope everyone understands.

[ztodd]

After much thought and prayer

and fasting? and scripture study? following the commandments and covenants?

Don't give up brother. Keep praying and studying in sincerity until you feel and know for certain that God is leading you one way or the other.

the Ira Fulton deal

What's that? Is it really a deal breaker? Something the truthfulness of the church hinges on?

[Rico]

So this is why you are leaving?

Mormon Church purchases Maricopa land from builders

Sounds kind of lame to leave a church because they bought 1900 acres of prime real estate land? When the economy picks up, and it will, it will be shown to have been a good investment. Just think, if the church hadn't stepped in and bought it, someone else would have...and they would be benefiting....

I guess to each their own.....I sure hope that you find a church to go to that goes along with your strong Book of Mormon testimony. From what I heard, there aren't very many.

[bjw]

What's that? Is it really a deal breaker? Something the truthfulness of the church hinges on?

The article Rico provided is pretty much dead on.

Ira Fulton was bankrupt, about to go under. He sits on our church's finance committee, and structured a deal where he would pay himself double what the land was worth out of hard-earned tithing funds. When a church member is bankrupt I can understand giving the person groceries, paying their light bill, maybe even finding them a new apartment, but giving them a $30+ million kickback over the value of a piece of property is completely out of the question. Also, keep in mind this is a deal we know about, what about the ones that occur that we don't know about?

I found this a few days ago on a site that wasn't even related to Mormonism, and then I searched for it and found that MADB and Mormon Discussions had discussed it in some threads as well. This is blatant fraud, and no church that is headed by Jesus Christ would pull a shady deal like this. This, compounded with all the other things I mentioned in earlier posts, is making me think more and more that this church is just a manmade institution, designed to make those at the top rich, such as Ira Fulton. Fulton donated $20 million to BYU back when GBH was prophet, and there is no evidence that Monson and others did not side with Fulton on this deal.

To top it all off I've been trying to get an appointment with my stake president, whose not only been ignoring me himself, but his counselors, clerks, etc. will not give me an appointment with him. I've been trying to get him ever since the stuff started in the OP. So, I sent out e-mails to all members of the bishopric and stake presidency, including the clerks as well as the stake patriarch. I told them all to please try to get an appointment for me to talk to the stake president. I'm going to tell the stake president everything I've found out about and I'm going to see if I can get some kind of explanation about it, especially the Fulton deal. If they refuse to explain it or can't explain it, and I do feel they owe me an explanation, then I'm sending my resignation letter to Salt Lake.

In the mean time, I am not attending any worship services or the temple until they get back to me and I can discuss all of my problems with the stake president.

I do appreciate the encouragement you guys have provided though. This has really been a tough time for me.

[lilered]

Perhaps its for the better after all, I consider it a privelage to belong to this church and if you don't then I am sure you will be granted the desires of your heart. Good luck and may God bless you.

[john doe]

This is blatant fraud, and no church that is headed by Jesus Christ would pull a shady deal like this. This, compounded with all the other things I mentioned in earlier posts, is making me think more and more that this church is just a manmade institution, designed to make those at the top rich, such as Ira Fulton. .

Really?? While I haven't read anything about this deal other than your statement here, I seem to remember a little story in the Bible concerning a guy named Judas. Have you read that part? I think that may have been a bigger deal that the one you allege. Even if all you claim is true (which likely contains a lot of unprovable speculation), you can't base your testimony on the faults of some of those in it. Either Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, or he wasn't. Either the Book of Mormon is true or it isn't.

[skippy740]

With an eye of faith, some people see miracles in everyday life.

With an eye of doubt, people can see flaws where there are none.

[kpatrey]

After much thought and prayer I have decided that it would be best for me to leave the LDS church. I just a few days ago found out about the Ira Fulton deal, and that compounded with everything else I have found out I just can't stay in any longer. I thank all the people I've met over the past few years and the friends I've made, I hope everyone understands.[/QUOTE]

I'm hopeful this will come across the right way. Could it be you are just looking for a reason to leave? I mean, every church has their faults, their errors - there are no perfect men/women in this world. In this world we are guided by a loving prophet, but at the same time he is human. The leaders within the church will make mistakes, but are we to never forgive? Are we so above the rest of mankind that we can't realize that errors were made? I have no idea what the Ira Fulton deal is about and honestly that doesn't make a difference to me. If you want a way out you do not need to find excuses or weaknesses in men...you simply leave. That is the beauty of the "freedom to choose." I personally believe that this is the true restored church of Jesus Christ. I believe that He is guiding us and leading us through these imperfect men. These men who are doing their best, sacrificing in ways we will never understand, loving their congregation with all their hearts. No matter what anyone says here today or the days to come will be the determining factor in you coming or going. What does matter is if you leave that you can always come back. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ do not want to lose any of their children and I hope that is always in your mind and in your heart. I do not know you but I do know that there is much pain and anguish in your heart and for that I am sorry for you. But this life is filled with tribulations and trials...but none that we can't get through. Best wishes in all that you do and I pray that you keep your Savior close to your heart.

[kpatrey]

Actually, if you have more information about these things please let me know, I am also trying to read on FAIR and FARMS on a regular basis. I try to stay clear of anti sites since they are usually biased and come up with a lot of weird things that have been proven false ad naseum.

What are the FAIR and FARMS?

[Seanette]

Careful, kpatrey. I got an infraction for expressing the impression I got that he was just looking for an excuse to leave, and for pointing out that his messages felt a lot like anti-Mormon material I'd read.

[bjw]

Really?? While I haven't read anything about this deal other than your statement here, I seem to remember a little story in the Bible concerning a guy named Judas. Have you read that part? I think that may have been a bigger deal that the one you allege. Even if all you claim is true (which likely contains a lot of unprovable speculation), you can't base your testimony on the faults of some of those in it. Either Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, or he wasn't. Either the Book of Mormon is true or it isn't.

Very big difference. What Judas did was not condoned by Christ or His Apostles or the church for that matter. The deal I mentioned was done by the church, and no effort was made to replace or even admonish the person. In fact, buildings at BYU have been named after him.

What you say about Joseph Smith being a prophet is true, either he was or he wasn't. When you look at the cold hard facts about what he did, and then compound it to what Thomas Monson and Ira Fulton are doing it all just doesn't add up. OD-1 in the D&C (which wasn't followed) says that a prophet can never lead the church astray. Therefore, if Monson is not a prophet, then we can declare Joseph wasn't. It can't be both ways. Nobody that can do a real estate deal like this can be a prophet.

When you compound this with everything else I mentioned, there has to come a point where you realize the church just isn't what its claiming to be.

[bjw]

What are the FAIR and FARMS?

FAIR: Website is fairlds.org and is an independent apologetics organization dedicated to defending the LDS church through scholarly papers and projects.

FARMS: also called Neal Maxwell Institute, is the apologetics organization maintained by BYU that is supported by the church and is made up mostly of BYU professors and church-hired scholars. Its website is farms.byu.edu.

[Kenny]

How do you think the business side of the church makes its money? They are no different to any other business with funds to spare. But don't confuse the hard nose business side of the church with the spiritual one.

The business sector will act in accordance with the law they'll never do anything dishonest or unethical but that does not rule out being ruthless and taking advantage of a situation that can return a profit.

The last time I checked, a few years ago, the church was worth $35 Billion but that worth far exceeds tithing receipts.

Think not about how the church makes money but the good they do worldwide with it.

If you leave the church then do because you no longer believe that Jesus Christ is the head of it and his only true church on Earth.

Remember this BWJ there are only two possibilities either the Church is true or it is not the rest is or should be of little or no concern.

[Hemidakota]

Very big difference. What Judas did was not condoned by Christ or His Apostles or the church for that matter. The deal I mentioned was done by the church, and no effort was made to replace or even admonish the person. In fact, buildings at BYU have been named after him.

What you say about Joseph Smith being a prophet is true, either he was or he wasn't. When you look at the cold hard facts about what he did, and then compound it to what Thomas Monson and Ira Fulton are doing it all just doesn't add up. OD-1 in the D&C (which wasn't followed) says that a prophet can never lead the church astray. Therefore, if Monson is not a prophet, then we can declare Joseph wasn't. It can't be both ways. Nobody that can do a real estate deal like this can be a prophet.

When you compound this with everything else I mentioned, there has to come a point where you realize the church just isn't what its claiming to be.

What is your beef with the church again?

[bjw]

How do you think the business side of the church makes its money? They are no different to any other business with funds to spare. But don't confuse the hard nose business side of the church with the spiritual one.

The business sector will act in accordance with the law they'll never do anything dishonest or unethical but that does not rule out being ruthless and taking advantage of a situation that can return a profit.

The last time I checked, a few years ago, the church was worth $35 Billion but that worth far exceeds tithing receipts.

Think not about how the church makes money but the good they do worldwide with it.

If you leave the church then do because you no longer believe that Jesus Christ is the head of it and his only true church on Earth.

Remember this BWJ there are only two possibilities either the Church is true or it is not the rest is or should be of little or no concern.

I actually have no problem whatsoever with the church owning businesses, building a shopping mall in SLC, owning Beneficial, etc. These are legit business enterprises and other churches do things similar to this. Even the Presbyterians and Catholics purchase and operate businesses.

What I do take issue with is that a guy on the church's board of directors pays himself double the value of a piece of worthless desert land because he is going bankrupt. If the church would have bought the land for fair market value I would not have a problem with it, but the fact that he paid himself double the value of the land when others would have bought the land from him for half the price is misusing the funds collected in the name of Christ.

I agree, if this is actually happening within the church with its blessing, then it is not Jesus Christ's true church. I will never lose faith in Jesus Christ, but I can follow the commandment to test the spirits and see if they are of God. Nobody coming in the name of Jesus would pull a deal like this.

[Moksha]

I do plan to take my doubts to the bishop and see what he has to say, and see if I can get released from the callings and excused from 3rd hour. I don't know, this whole situation just has me really depressed right now and I hope I decide what to do pretty soon.

Makes a lot of sense. From reading many posts, I know there is great variation in Bishops and EQ Presidents depending upon the ward, but that is to be expected since they are volunteer positions. The EQ President really is a detriment to his calling though, isn't he?!

It is important to realize that there really are many nice people in the Church.

Best wishes.

:)

[Moksha]

What I do take issue with is that a guy on the church's board of directors pays himself double the value of a piece of worthless desert land because he is going bankrupt. If the church would have bought the land for fair market value I would not have a problem with it, but the fact that he paid himself double the value of the land when others would have bought the land from him for half the price is misusing the funds collected in the name of Christ.

This made me scratch my head too, but do we really know for sure that Ira Fulton sits on the Church finance committee?

[bjw]

This made me scratch my head too, but do we really know for sure that Ira Fulton sits on the Church finance committee?

Moksha:

You bring up a good point here. I'm going to try to confirm this part of the story one way or the other. I'm scheduled to meet with my bishop and stake president this week. I'm going to see if there's some way they can verify the elements of this story, such as Ira Fulton sitting on the church finance committee. It should be interesting to see how they respond.

I sent the stake presidency and bishopric an e-mail and told them that I felt it was only fair that they get to tell their side of the story before I officially quit. I'm going to tell them my concerns and see what they have to say. I spoke with one of the clerks today and I know the Stake President is pretty angry with me, so I don't know how much good the meeting will do. However, I hope that I can get the answers I need. I really am looking for ways to give the church the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway, thanks for the encouraging words.

[skippy740]

What I do take issue with is that a guy on the church's board of directors pays himself double the value of a piece of worthless desert land because he is going bankrupt. If the church would have bought the land for fair market value I would not have a problem with it, but the fact that he paid himself double the value of the land when others would have bought the land from him for half the price is misusing the funds collected in the name of Christ.

Uhhhh... no.

Businesses collect money for the goods and services that they provide. They have a business to operate and a profit to make. (That's profit, not prophet.) Busineses don't collect funds in the name of Christ.

Businesses DONATE funds to the Church's Foundation which is THEN used for temporal ministering.

If the Church makes a business decision using business funds, there is no problem. If the Church used TITHING funds, then there would be an issue.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Why We Do Some of the Things We Do

Now, the next question: “Why is the Church in business?”

We have a few business interests. Not many. Most of these were begun in very early days when the Church was the only organization that could provide the capital that was needed to start certain business interests designed to serve the people in this remote area. We have divested ourselves long since of some of these where it was felt there was no longer a need. Included in these divestitures, for instance, was the old Consolidated Wagon and Machine Company, which did well in the days of wagons and horse-drawn farm machinery. The company outlived its usefulness.

The Church sold the banks which it once held. As good banking services developed in the community, there was no longer any need for Church-owned banks.

Some of these business interests directly serve the needs of the Church. For instance, our business is communication. We must speak with people across the world. We must speak at home to let our stand be known, and abroad to acquaint others with our work. And so we own a newspaper, the Deseret News, the oldest business institution in Utah.

We likewise own television and radio stations. These provide a voice in the communities which they serve. I may add that we are sometimes embarrassed by network television presentations. Our people do the best they can to minimize the impact of these.

We have a real estate arm designed primarily to ensure the viability and the attractiveness of properties surrounding Temple Square. The core of many cities has deteriorated terribly. This cannot be said of Salt Lake City, although you may disagree as you try to get to the Tabernacle these days. We have tried to see that this part of the community is kept attractive and viable. With the beautiful grounds of Temple Square and the adjoining block to the east, we maintain gardens the equal of any in the world. This area will become even more attractive when the facility now being constructed on Main Street is completed and the large Conference Center to the north is finished.

Are these businesses operated for profit? Of course they are. They operate in a competitive world. They pay taxes. They are important citizens of this community. And they produce a profit, and from that profit comes the money which is used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Foundation to help with charitable and worthwhile causes in this community and abroad and, more particularly, to assist in the great humanitarian efforts of the Church.

These businesses contribute one-tenth of their profit to the Foundation. The Foundation cannot give to itself or to other Church entities, but it can use its resources to assist other causes, which it does so generously. Millions of dollars have been so distributed. Thousands upon thousands have been fed. They have been supplied with medicine. They have been supplied with clothing and shelter in times of great emergency and terrible distress. How grateful I feel for the beneficence of this great Foundation which derives its resources from the business interests of the Church.

Emphasis added.

You just gotta keep the Church's business interests separate from religious offerings.

Besides, you don't know the accounting records of the church. You don't know if offering a higher price was more beneficial to the Church in some way. (Do you think the Church could use a tax-deduction for their business interests and so they decided to use more funds to obtain that tax-deduction?)

I'm not an accountant. You don't know the reasons behind every single thing. I don't know those reasons.

Food for thought.

[bjw]

Uhhhh... no.

Businesses collect money for the goods and services that they provide. They have a business to operate and a profit to make. (That's profit, not prophet.) Busineses don't collect funds in the name of Christ.

Businesses DONATE funds to the Church's Foundation which is THEN used for temporal ministering.

If the Church makes a business decision using business funds, there is no problem. If the Church used TITHING funds, then there would be an issue.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Why We Do Some of the Things We Do

Emphasis added.

You just gotta keep the Church's business interests separate from religious offerings.

Besides, you don't know the accounting records of the church. You don't know if offering a higher price was more beneficial to the Church in some way. (Do you think the Church could use a tax-deduction for their business interests and so they decided to use more funds to obtain that tax-deduction?)

I'm not an accountant. You don't know the reasons behind every single thing. I don't know those reasons.

Food for thought.

You're right, we don't know their accounting records, and that in and of itself creates a red flag right there. Most churches give all members an annual report every year with CPA certified financial statements, I know because I was an executive for the Presbyterian church for several years before becoming a Mormon. High standards for financial accountability are normally followed in a true non-profit organization, with disclosure. The fact that the LDS church keeps its finances a secret from the members is a red flag in and of itself.

Also, I have no interest whatsoever in the church's legitimate business activities. How they decide to invest their money is their business. I do, however, have an issue with a greedy executive within the church that pays himself over double what something is worth and keeping it as a kickback.

You think the church would purposely overpay a finance committee member for a tax break? If so, then the church has committed fraud too, so if what you suggest is the case then both parties are guilty. No matter how you try to analyze this there is no way to excuse it. I know, when I first found out about this stuff I tried to explain it away in my mind as well, but eventually I realized there is really no way to explain it, things are exactly as they appear.

[talisyn]

On the plus side in about 10-15 years or when you have kids you'll come back and we will welcome you

Edited June 28, 2009 by talisyn

[john doe]

Okay, I just read the article about the deal. I honestly don't see what your uproar is all about.

First off, the article I read doesn't say anything about the land being purchased with tithing dollars. It probably wasn't.

Second, while you claim the church paid twice what the land is worth, I did not see that in the article. The only thing I saw is that some speculators say they spent more than it was worth, and that was half of what the owners paid 4-5 years ago. Fulton got $32 million from the church for land he spent $75 million to buy in 2005.

Third, I didn't see in the article in the statement what the plan is for the land in question. Have you seen a plan for it? It may well be that they are coming up with some sort of planned community designed to double the value of what they paid. The Church's development people are pretty smart folks. They've done some pretty good work in the past at getting a return on their investments, I'm inclined to wait and see how they do with this one.

Fourth, the fact is that we don't really know the facts other than what they appear to be on the surface. I really doubt Pres. Monson got involved with this deal as you have claimed. I doubt the decision to pull the trigger on the deal was made at a level higher than the Presiding Bishopric, and I would imagine that decision was made based on a business model the church has used or seen before. We don't know the details, and it's likely we may never know all of them.

Fifth, you're really going to leave the church over a land deal you were not even a party to where you don't know all the details? Seems to me you're just looking for an excuse to leave. A testimony based on speculation is a speculative testimony. Again, you really need to get back to the basics of what your testimony is really based on. Is the Book of Mormon true? Was Joseph Smith visited by God and His son Jesus? Was Joseph Smith a true prophet of God?

[pam]

Okay just my opinion here...take it as being rude or whatever. First this thread is started because of a problem with an Elders Quorum President..so the person decides he might want to leave.

Now we are discussing the problem with the perceived feelings on the Church' financial situation, which is causing doubt again and might have the person leave.

Honestly, are we just looking for a "reason" to justify leaving the Church?