Tired of 'enduring'

[Soul_Searcher]

So many people I have spoken to about my problems with the church just tell me to 'hang in there' 'keep going' or 'endure it'. I dont know if I can do this. I have to see results. I can do this for a job if I know it will only be for a short amount of time. My entire life is NOT a short amount of time to me at this point in existence, it is a loooong time. I cant go on for the rest of my life like this, its doing my head in.

I just dont know what more I can do. I have even had a spiritual experience-Pres Uchdorf spoke here in the UK and it had a profound effect on me, I really did feel the spirit. I knew it was telling me that the church was true as I'd asked for it and got it

Its still not enough, I have no idea why. The memory is fading. I'm still fed up with much of the culture/teachings of the church.

I dont think theres much more I can do.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

[qedd]

What exactly are you tired of enduring? What are you looking for?

Do you believe there is an Higher Power? Do you believe there is a Father in Heaven that loves you? Do you believe that our Father sent His Son to conquer both physical and spiritual death for you? Do you believe that our Father sent His Son to be a perfect example, to show you how to reach for your potential?

What exactly do you believe? And what have you done or are you doing to solidify that belief into knowledge?

The observation of time passing is subjective and relative. Why do you think this life is so long for you? Why do you think it is so short for so many of us?

Edited June 29, 2009 by qedd
Grammar. ;-)

[Dr T]

SS,

Does it have anything to do with the whole discussion about Law (works) vs. Grace like we talked about recently in the forums? Just wondering and not trying to put words in your mouth. Just something I've been thinking about this weekend.

[Elgama]

Chieko Okazaki has served in the General Relief Society, Primary and Young Women Presidencies, has written many wonderful words and spoken to many and inspire lots of sisters. but has never had an Earth shattering spiritual experience.

I think your priority is to decide why you are LDS and how important God is to you

-Charley

[Soul_Searcher]

Not really Dr T. I think it boils down to the fact that I dont KNOW. I'm finding it hard to live a religion that I am unsure of.

I mean it probably is, but I'm only basing that on my lifetime in the church, and its familiarity which is making me say its 'probably' true. Ive not really experienced other religions, but nor do I want to.

I just feel that I need to KNOW to be able to follow a religion. I really need to know if this is the life/path God wants for me, and I dont know if I can ever know.

Even with my spiritual experience-Yes God was telling me something, but I almost want to hear it from his mouth or I wont be satisfied.

qedd-I dont feel life is long in the sense that Im fed up or anything. I mean its a long time to be unsure of your beliefs.

I do believe in God most days. When I'm close to nature or look at the sky, I talk to God and want him to be there and hope he is. But I'll never know until I die.

As for the atonement-I was trying to think about this during Sacrament yesterday. This is the key and I've only just realised. I FEEL NOTHING. I cant equate what Chrost did as this amazing thing. I even shocked myself as I was prepared to sit there and feel love and gratitude for the Saviour. But it was empty. I sat there and THOUGHT about it. But I then found myself thinking....and??

I obviously dont have conviction in the atonement. Perhaps Ive been praying for and focusing on the wrong things.

I still am unsure if I can know the atonement is what its claimed to be. I honestly dont know how I can feel the way I am supposed to feel about it-grateful, overwhelmed etc.

I know I'm rambling a bit Im sort of piecing things together as I write. Sorry.

[Palerider]

I guess that means your thread about being taught is out the window???

[Prodigal_Son]

Are you living your life in accordance with the rules and admonitions of the church? Often there is a correlation between doubt and sin.

[Soul_Searcher]

not at all palerider. I still want to work this out, Im looking at all options.

I do not think I am living a sinful life.

[NeuroTypical]

Well, I for one, do NOT recommend you just sit there and pretend your doubt doesn't exist. This is not a time to 'endure to the end', this is a time to resolve your doubts.

Doubt is good. Doubt helps us rid ourselves of problems and untruth, and helps us discover truth. But you've got to resolve it. Unresolved doubt festers and becomes unbearable. Your post is proof enough of that.

So, Soul_searcher, have you followed the step-by-step unambiguous process in the scriptures that promises a resolution to your doubt? (I guess a more important question is: Do you even know there is one? Hint: It is not "read the scriptures and pray".)

LM

[Traveler]

So many people I have spoken to about my problems with the church just tell me to 'hang in there' 'keep going' or 'endure it'. I dont know if I can do this. I have to see results. I can do this for a job if I know it will only be for a short amount of time. My entire life is NOT a short amount of time to me at this point in existence, it is a loooong time. I cant go on for the rest of my life like this, its doing my head in.

I just dont know what more I can do. I have even had a spiritual experience-Pres Uchdorf spoke here in the UK and it had a profound effect on me, I really did feel the spirit. I knew it was telling me that the church was true as I'd asked for it and got it

Its still not enough, I have no idea why. The memory is fading. I'm still fed up with much of the culture/teachings of the church.

I dont think theres much more I can do.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

It is much more spiritually lifting to seek to help others than it is to gratify one's own desires and passions. If enduring is with self in mind it will become such drudgery that there will be no sense or value to it. If enduring is done with the love of others in mind it will become a “joy in the morning” as spoken of in scripture.

The less effort to obtain something the less value it has to those that obtain it.

The Traveler

[Soul_Searcher]

Excellent point traveller.

LM. Your post is good, if a little cryptic. I might be aware but Im not sure what you are referring to. Enlighten me and I will start it this evening.

I have 8 weeks off and I am determined to be happy and solid with my beliefs, whatever they are, by the end of the summer.

[rameumptom]

So many people I have spoken to about my problems with the church just tell me to 'hang in there' 'keep going' or 'endure it'. I dont know if I can do this. I have to see results. I can do this for a job if I know it will only be for a short amount of time. My entire life is NOT a short amount of time to me at this point in existence, it is a loooong time. I cant go on for the rest of my life like this, its doing my head in.

I just dont know what more I can do. I have even had a spiritual experience-Pres Uchdorf spoke here in the UK and it had a profound effect on me, I really did feel the spirit. I knew it was telling me that the church was true as I'd asked for it and got it

Its still not enough, I have no idea why. The memory is fading. I'm still fed up with much of the culture/teachings of the church.

I dont think theres much more I can do.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

I suggest you read Alma 5, and answer the questions he asks. Are you sufficiently humble? Do you remember the sacrifices others have gone through before you? Have you felt the Spirit before, and if so, what are you doing to have it now? Do you have Jesus' light in your countenance?

Something else, are you looking for reasons to leave the Church, or are you looking for reasons to follow God? I am not enamored by the Church's culture, either. But since the saving ordinances are within the Church, I will keep doing my part. What I focus on is not my membership in the Church, but in my relationship with God and His Gospel. This is where there is life sustaining Spirit and power. I've lived in wards that seemed dead. But I could still grow spiritually, because I focused on the things God wished me to do and grow in.

If we're dying spiritually, it is because we are not feeding ourselves at the spiritual trough. We're waiting for someone else to come by and force feed us, and that just isn't how it works. We are responsible for our own testimonies and spirituality. If my grows weak, it almost always is because I've stopped studying the scriptures, praying fervently, and pondering the gospel. And sometimes it's because we've increased in sinning (either through comission or omission).

So while the Church and people are not perfect, if you are thinking about leaving, it is because of things in your life, not theirs. Please don't blame them for their imperfections, unless you are perfect yourself. Instead, take responsibility for yourself, take a good hard look inward, and make the tough choices to follow Christ.

[talisyn]

Sounds like you have a case of the 'meeeees', it's ok I have them too.

One thing that helps me get out of my doldrums is the phrase 'be the change you wish to see'. When I do that I find myself relying on God more for guidance, which coincidentally enough helps to strengthen my own testimony.

Good luck!

[martybess]

SS,

Whats your doubts? Are you looking for a way out and to leave? Don't want to live it? Don't like the ppl? Are you looking at those who run the "church" instead of looking at the one and only one who runs the "gospel"? Do have problems with gosple beliefs or principles? What's up, talk to us.

-Marty

[NeuroTypical]

Excellent point traveller.

LM. Your post is good, if a little cryptic. I might be aware but Im not sure what you are referring to. Enlighten me and I will start it this evening.

Oh sorry - not trying to be cryptic. Here's the sections I'm talking about, along with some of my own thoughs and experiences with them:

Alma 32:27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The first scripture promises a slowly evolving process from faith to knowledge, through the assumption that if it looks good, and acts good, and produces good fruit, then it is good. Not really enough to base a testimony on, in my opinion. But Moroni promised something else - "he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.". That sounded a little more like it. So, when I looked at the verse, it laid out my side of the bargain:

1- "And when ye shall receive these things" - Before it would work, I had to read the Book of Mormon. But more than read it, to "receive" it. I had to internalize it - deeply reading for meaning, more than just a cursory glance. Not a critical reading, looking for faults. I had to read it, with the notion that it very well might be exactly what it claimes to be - scripture. True. The word of God. A literal history of people who literally lived.

2- "I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true"

So, I had to pray. Not just pray, but pray in the name of Christ. That means, I had to be worthy of his name. The guy who owns The Simsons brand, will let any amount of stupid garbage bear the name - Bart Simpson toothpaste, cheap flimsy Homer travel mugs, stupid T-shirts make out of inferior materials, whatever. But Jesus is more choosy. If you are going to bear his name, you need to be following his teachings.

This is possible to do, without actually believing in him. After all, I follow some of Sun-Tzu's "art of war" notions, but I don't believe he is a god, and I also don't share his faith. The best advice for a happy marriage, the notion that I've used as a foundation for mine, came from a drunk Tongan I met in an alleyway one night. I follow that advice daily, yet I'm not a big fan of the guy who gave it to me.

So, to take upon myself the name of Christ, I had to do and be a couple of main things:

* Not sinning

* Loving my neighbor

* Desiring to know a God I could love

I did not have to be perfect, I figured it was a matter of heart. It wasn't how close to my destination I was, it mattered only that my compass was pointed in the right direction, and I was following it. Yes, there was some doubt about what the compass was pointing to - was it true north, or just wishful thinking. But that didn't matter - I was just trying to satisfy this part of the scripture - and be able to pray in the name of Christ.

So, I prayed. I prayed nightly, starting about halfway through the book. I prayed fervently. My prayers were short and simple: "Dear Heavenly Father, if thou exist, thou knowest my heart. Thou knowest I am sincere. I desire to know of the truthfulness of this work. Please show it to me. In the name of thy son, Jesus Christ, amen". Simple, plain, sincere, over and over again.

3- "and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ,"

Ok - 3 requirements - and I had to have all 3 of them. In years past, I had read the BoM and prayed in the name of Christ, and got nothing. I was missing real intent - I figured I wouldn't get an answer, and praying was a way of proving my guess true.

It's about where my heart is. It needs to be sincere, not with an ulterior motive, burdened by unrepented of sin, or trying to get something else out of the experience. My intent had to be true. No faith, no promise.

I can't impress enough on everyone, the importance of these 3 items. They're related, but if you are missing one, don't be expecting anything. If you are having a hard time figuring out where you are on these 3, you're probably not there.

Throughout the process, I was comfortable with my part of the bargain. It was like showing up for a test being very, very well prepared - there's a confidence based on the fact that you know what you're doing. I wasn't lying to myself, or bending any rules, or figuring out the least I could do to satisfy the bare minimum - I was there, and there solidly.

I did not believe in God - but I didn't have to. I just had to want to. I was not setting aside doubts - they held the center stage.

4- "He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

It worked for me, but that's another story. Good luck!

LM

[Soul_Searcher]

I just deleted my essay, I mean post by accident. I'll try and condense it.

Loudmouth, you are so right. I know all this. I did this at the beginning of the month. I got my spiritual experience. Uchdorf was speaking and it was so powerful. He testified of Pres Monson so strongly that he almost shouted it 'PRES MONSON IS A PROPHET OF GOD, LIKE UNTO MOSES'. I had all the things that you are told happen to me-overwhelming 'warm' feeling from toes that enveloped my body. My heart was racing, and I knew my prayer was answered. I almost couldnt speak afterwards. I managed to whisper, 'wow'.

For some reason this hasn't been enough for me. I could do all this again, but I feel the Lord might turn round and say, 'What more do you want?' He'd be right, what more can I have to convince me to embrace and live the gospel?

I takes a lot for me to admit this but I dont like to be wrong, maybe it is pride I need to work on. I like to have the last word, and I like to be right. Could this be whats stopping me?

Its just HARD. I'm sure you all enjoy living the gospel and its not a struggle like it is for me.

[Dravin]

I'm sure you all enjoy living the gospel and its not a struggle like it is for me.

While I don't personally know what your struggles are like for you and just exactly what you are going through. If you are assuming that we don't have our personal struggles and that living this gospel is never hard and none of us ever want to just say, "Screw it!" then you'd be very, very wrong. The Gospel is simple, that doesn't mean it isn't hard. That doesn't mean those whom you look at and think, "Its so easy for them!" don't have their own doubts and struggles.

It reminds me of a story I heard about a mother with a gaggle of kids who were always to church on time. People always made comments about how it's so easy for her, there own kids were monsters to get ready, but obviously hers were angels because of what she gets them to do, it was just so easy for her! The thing was the people who said she had things so easy didn't know how early she had to get up, how hard she had to struggle to get the kids ready, how she had to change little Timmy twice because he decided to go play in the mud in his church clothes.

The moral of the story? You can't tell how easy something is for somebody just because of the end results. People have struggles and challenges and they aren't always visible to other people.

[Traveler]

Excellent point traveller.

LM. Your post is good, if a little cryptic. I might be aware but Im not sure what you are referring to. Enlighten me and I will start it this evening.

I have 8 weeks off and I am determined to be happy and solid with my beliefs, whatever they are, by the end of the summer.

Your posts seem to have a lot of "I"'s and "my"'s in them. As a suggestion, you might try something like spending a day determined to bring happiness to someone else without them knowing that it was you.

As a note on this subject - Perhaps the reason that the L-rd gives us callings in the church is because without the calling, most likely, we would not do the service.

The Traveler

[deseretgov]

I think you need to tak Obi-wan Kenobi's advice in Star Wars:

"Let go, Luke."

I'm not talking about letting go of your beliefs, but let go of your concern. Let go of your worries.

What I'm getting from your posts is that you don't really have a problem with the church's doctrine, rather your confirmation of the truth.

About enduring. I remember my mission president saying that we really need to replace the word enduring. We shouldn't have to "endure" to the end. Enduring sounds like we're constantly in pain and struggling. Actually having the gospel is a blessing not something that needs to be endured.

Edited June 29, 2009 by deseretgov

[NeuroTypical]

For some reason this hasn't been enough for me. I could do all this again, but I feel the Lord might turn round and say, 'What more do you want?'

Well, one thing you can be certain of, is that God understands what is going on inside of you. He doesn't get exasperated and lash out at His children in anger unless they're being willfully disobedient. He understands you aren't, He knows your heart.

Its just HARD. I'm sure you all enjoy living the gospel and its not a struggle like it is for me.

I enjoy the heck out of KNOWING the gospel. I'm still working on living it, just like everyone else.

If it's any consolation - you may remember a few years back, the news stories about some recently-released letters from Mother Theresa. Even that saintly, Christlike woman struggled mightilly to believe on occasion.

LM

[MikeUpton]

the answer in my case has laid in faith and humility. these were two areas I needed to work on in order to not be fed up with the difficulties of my life.

when you believe in god, have a knowledge of his goodness and in his attributes, and you believe he is those things, and when you believe that all he does is for your benefit.

and when you can say thank you to God, even in your difficulty, (I even began to feel as Paul, and thanked him for my difficulties, because I know that God is wise above all and does all things for my benefit.) when you can say thanks for all you have in your life, and especially when you trust in God so much that you are willing to do anything he asks, this is the faith and humility he seeks, and your burdens will be lifted, and you will find great joy in life.

[bmy-]

Its still not enough, I have no idea why. The memory is fading. I'm still fed up with much of the culture ... of the church.

I completely understand. To me.. it's not so much the teachings. It's the culture. Which parts do you struggle with specifically? I've made a point to tell nobody (excluding Bishops and close ones of course) my problems.

[rameumptom]

SS,

You've received a testimony from God that Pres Monson is a true prophet. Now, He's leaving the next step up to you. Do you humble yourself enough to submit yourself to God's desire, or do you choose another path.

The other paths may seem easier at first, but I assure you they all lead to weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus taught in 3 Nephi 27 that there are things of God, of man, and of Satan. The things of God can bring us eternal happiness. The things of man and Satan bring temporary happiness, but then comes the misery.

God sends us peace and quiet happiness, while the things of Satan bring a rush of pleasure, followed eventually by misery and the need to follow Satan again (he uses addiction very well to captivate souls).

I hope you will humble yourself and reach out to God on His terms, and not on your own.

[lilered]

Soul_Searcher:

Two things stick out for me in reviewing your responses. First, your testimony of the Gospel, God, and Jesus Christ needs strengthened and your doubts are being cultivated by evil influences.

Pray to know if the Church is true. Nothing will get rid of doubts like the power of the Holy Ghost.

• As your testimony grows, rely on the fact that your prayers were answered.

• Find answers to your questions through personal scripture study and by listening to lessons taught in church and seminary.

• Overcome doubts by doing your best to live the gospel.

Fast and Pray.

[jameslentz]

Every person in this gospel struggles. Some have struggles that show on the outside and some keep it inside very well but we all struggle. It is our most important mission in this life to grow through our experience to gain an understanding of the attributes of HF and JC that we are trying to live to be perfected. One thing to remember is that we are not expected to be perfect here. We must strive to live the commandments, we must use the atonement every day, we must work hard and we all will still fail from time to time. But everytime that we fail and we sin, or we fail and have doubt, or we fail and "lose" some part of our faith our loving and ever patient HF is waiting to see how we react to this new situation. To see if we are going to fight to overcome, to regain, or to endure. I recently regained a great portion of my testimony. I have been away from the church for 15 years. A part of my testimony was always there in my heart, but the culture and even a few of the doctrines didn't sit right with me and I felt that the gospel had in some way been invalidated. Life has a way of bringing you to a decision. My decision came this year and now I feel that I can testify that this gospel is true and that HF and JC love you very much. They understand your struggle, Jesus went to the heights and depths of all feeling in this life so that He would have a perfect understanding of what each of us will go through. I know that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration and that Thomas S. Monson is the living prophet of God today. This knowledge and testimony makes it so that no matter what hardship is there or what doctrine I may struggle with understanding, it is all true and someday it will all make perfect sense.

Here are a couple of talks that have done me a world of good lately and when I was reading some of your comments I thought they might be able to help you too.

Remember How You Felt

You Know Enough