On living together before marriage?

[bmy-]

Why is it such an issue? Temptation seems to be the only legitimate explanation I have heard. Is it really safe to marry someone without ever having seen them at their worst?

I mean, my girlfriend can be really cranky during the day.. but can anything top her after a late night of studying combined with menstrual cramps and a bad hair day the next morning? I'm scared to find out.. before it's to late.

This is nothing I'm rushing. She's stayed with me on vacation with my family, etc. It just seems like a good idea to live together at least for a short while before marriage. We're together alone and in private all day as is.. is it really that much more dangerous? It's financially smart, too.

[pam]

Well for one thing, breaking the law of chastity has serious consequences. Now before you say we won't be having sex..I call bull. Living together provides too many temptations and I would imagine 9 times out of 10, intimate relations become the thing to do.

[LolaBella]

I would have had the willpower to live with someone and not sleep with them. I have wondered about this too bmy.

However, I knew I would be able to live with my husband because we were in love, and I knew him well enough to know how it would be when we lived together.

[hordak]

Why is it such an issue? Temptation seems to be the only legitimate explanation I have heard. Is it really safe to marry someone without ever having seen them at their worst?

I mean, my girlfriend can be really cranky during the day.. but can anything top her after a late night of studying combined with menstrual cramps and a bad hair day the next morning? I'm scared to find out.. before it's to late.

This is nothing I'm rushing. She's stayed with me on vacation with my family, etc. It just seems like a good idea to live together at least for a short while before marriage. We're together alone and in private all day as is.. is it really that much more dangerous? It's financially smart, too.

I used to think it was better to live together. Learn how each other "works" in that sort of environment before taking the plunge would be help I thought. Turns out not.

My wife and i took a marriage class a few years ago and statistics showed couples that live together first have higher divorce rates.

In all fairness it could be due in part to other factors, but the study indicated that living together first gave couples a "just in case things don't work out" or "things might not work out" attitude from the start that carried over into the marriage.

[WmLee]

You don’t know the half of it! Sure, you’ll enjoy the PMS, the cramping, the water weight gain and ALL the emotional changes she will bring to the table. How about when you decide to have a child? Do you have ANY idea what her emotions will be after that? The changes she goes through for the first three/four months, then her feet will swell and nothing fits and she feels fat. Then after the baby she has the depression and lack of sleep from being up every three hours with the baby and of course you will not understand, she’ll remind you that you don’t even when you say you do.

So, living together first will give you what kind of advantage here? My daughter suggests you, “cowboy up” be a man about what life hands you and show some respect for this woman. You test drive a car, not an eternal companion. And I have to ask, you come with no problems? Love concerns all my friend.

[hordak]

You test drive a car, not an eternal companion.

nice:)

[Misshalfway]

Living together just isn't necessessary. I believe that a person can get to know another person adequately without playing with spiritual fire. No one can predict what will happen in marriage before the embark. And everyone is always in progress so the person you are when you start marriage won't be the person you are 12 or 20 or 40 years down the road.

I think I do hear wisdom in you in that you want to learn as much about your potential life partner as possible. I think we need a little more of that in our LDS dating ways. But we also have to trust. Trust is part of the foundational fabric of marriage. We have to trust another person with our hearts and lives. We have to trust ourselves to handle whatever may come and of course, we must trust God to help us make good decisions before we marry and afterwards too.

Marriage will always be a challenge for everyone. I don't know a single person who hasn't had to struggle inside it. Living together can't prevent this struggle. It can only, imo (and those of the experts), complicate it. I mean, how effective is it to start a marriage when you basically disrespect the other person by saying ' I care more about my comforts than your virtue' before you commit to each other? Living together takes the good and undercuts it in the very act.

[Gwen]

instead of living together why not do pre marriage counseling. go to (read, listen to, whatever your preferred medium) some communication seminars. take some real personality tests (more than one) and look at the results together. read his needs her needs and do the worksheets together. 5 love languages.... some of those yes you can't really do "completely" due to it addressing the intimacy factor but you will have a very very good start of knowing each other very well. you will have the information in your head as well as on hand so as you change in your relationship (as mentioned before with kids, pms, post partum, trials of identity and testimony, etc. and yes men have changes too) you can revist the books and retake the quizes and discuss what is different.

living with someone doesn't equate with knowing them or if marriage will work. all it does is put you in closer proximity. if you want to really get to know someone you can do that in or out of the same house.

and yes i agree it's a good idea to really get to know someone before getting married.

[NeuroTypical]

On living together before marriage? Why is it such an issue? Temptation seems to be the only legitimate explanation I have heard.

Is temptation not a good enough reason for you?

Everyone here is doing a fine job of spelling out the 'what could happens' - I have one thing to add. Let's say you live together and get even more attached than you do now. Let's say you don't sin, and everything is fine. Let's say you do in fact learn something about her that makes you want to back away. Consider - people who get attached and emotionally invested will often overlook such things.

Is it really safe to marry someone without ever having seen them at their worst?

This is a fair question, and an important one. I would say no. I would also say that you can see someone at their worst without living with them. You talk about moods and cramps and bed hair. Fine and dandy, but you can tell much about who a person is by observing them in times of stress. Having important plans ruined, getting a speeding ticket, failing a test, etc.

As I look back over my own engagement, and following decade plus of marriage, I can truthfully say that 1- I had the exact same serious worry you're having now, and 2- I learned everything I needed to about her without living with her first. A period of engagement is there so you can objectively look at the warts and see if you accept them or not.

Good luck.

LM

[RachelleDrew]

If you think a woman having PMS is seeing her at her "worst" then you are not even remotely ready for marriage, much less living together. Just sayin' ; )

On another note; my husband and I had a son together before I was baptized and before we were married. We stopped having sex about halfway through my pregnancy, because I wanted to be baptized into the church. But that meant I would have to live the law of chastity. So from about december til june when I was finally baptized I didn't touch my (then) boyfriend other than kissing.

Why did we wait that long? Because I couldn't be baptized into the church so long as I was living with a man I wasn't married to that wasn't blood relative. It didn't matter that we hadn't had sex in months, and that I was "technically" living the law of chastity. My bishop and missionaries at the time still wouldn't baptize me until either my boyfriend and I were married, or if one of us moved out.

The latter wasn't possible, we literally had no choice in the matter due to circumstance. So I had to wait until we got married. I'm not certain if this is church policy, or just the preference of my local church leaders. But the moral of this story is this: even if you do manage to remain chaste (and that's a huge "if"), your leaders still may not find you temple worthy or consider you to be in good standing with the church. You know that whole thing about avoiding the "appearance" of evil? Yeah, this would fall into that category. So just think about that...

[prisonchaplain]

Marriage ages are getting older and older, because young people see the failures of the older generation. On the other hand, those older newly weds are no more mature than their parents. They're just older, and have been single longer.

Living together is a recipe for failure. Secular studies prove this out. The recommendation to seek premarital counseling, and to attend seminars is so good! Studies also show that these help. I watched the Focus on the Family series on marriage and parenting when I was in my late teens, but didn't marry until I was 31. I'm convinced so much of that early stuff sunk in, and was helpful. Additionally, we courted for nearly three years, and waited for all the parents to give their blessings. Old school does work. Also, you've got to be so in love with your g/f that you'll take the risk and the plunge.

[thekabalist]

I mean, my girlfriend can be really cranky during the day.. but can anything top her after a late night of studying combined with menstrual cramps and a bad hair day the next morning? I'm scared to find out.. before it's to late.

Ah if all the problems of being married were the woman's PMS what a wonderful world it would be!

Leaving the religious doctrine aside don't expect to really learn anything about what being married is about just by living together.

When you fight and you are not married you can always walk away.

When you have financial issues to work with you will not think as a couple because you're not really committed.

Your stuff is still your stuff and her stuff is still her stuff.

You really really really need G-d's blessing to make it work without the relationship turning into murder or suicide. By living together you don't get that much needed extra help.

You will always feel insecure about completely opening up to another human being who has no commitment with you whatsoever and can at any moment leave.

On top of all the problems you may risk facing problems with your friends and family who may not approve of such a way of life. That can be a real burden.

You risk having her family think badly about you and vice-versa for the rest of your life.

So not only will you not learn all you need about marriage but you also risk losing your life partner. But if you are unsure you want to marry this girl why bring her under the same roof?

Even without the religious don'ts it's still a very bad idea. In an explosive environment that a life together can be you really need all the comfort and the security and the commitment that marrige provides you.

b'shalom!

[Guest mormonmusic]

Something terrible happened to me after I chose NOT to live together or have sex before marriage, and I still think I did the right thing in spite of the nightmare that happened. I explained this once before in this forum, so I hope I'm not boring people.

On our wedding night, I found my wife had a severe phobia of sex called vaginisumus -- makes the muscles in that area clamp up to the point nothing can get through. This lasted 10 years before we finally consummated our marriage for the first time -- after having a child through artificial insemmination thinking this would cure the vaginismuas (her obstetrician told her that 8 out of 10 cases of vaginismus were cured by a vaginal birth, plus we loved each other and wanted a child).

As luck would have it, my wife had to have a C-section, so the agony continued for another 5 years after our first child where I had all the responsibilities of keeping temple marriage coventants, and being a father, without the physical blessings. And to make matters worse, I was a virgin when I married her. I was 38 before I actually experienced intercourse for the first time, in spite of being told I had well-above average good looks my whole life, and a ready supply of potential girlfriends at most times.

There were many times when I questioned the wisdom of staying chaste, and living apart before getting married based on what happened. As you can guess.

Anyway, I'm glad I stayed chaste and didn't live together before marriage because it gives me confidence that the Lord will bless me for what I sacrificed in keeping my temple covenants. We are happy now, although the vaginismus was a huge stressor on our marriage. I trust her and I know she trusts me because of what I did. Our marriage is stable and I have confidence it will last.

But even beyond that, research shows that people who live together before marriage tend to have a higher divorce rate than others who don't. This causes society and individuals and children a ton of suffering -- more suffering than the couples who have to go through what I did (and by the way, vaginismus is curable with effort).

Suggestions for Picking a Spouse

Also, there are ways of getting to know each other before marriage so you can at least predict key points of conflict and compatibility:

1. Spend time with her family -- the culture in her family, how they resolve conflicts, etcetera, will be a predictor of the culture she'll bring to your own family. Spend enough time with them that they let their guard down and act themselves.

2. Spend a lot of time with her. I like the idea of family vacations together -- you really get to know everyone's behavior and character throught these experiences including your possible spouse.

3. Go to the Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice site and read about preparing for marriage.

4. Look at the dynamics in her family between her mother and father, if both exist. If her Dad did all the housework, and you hate housework, that's a problem. She'll expect you to do it and you'll hate it. Look at how they parented, who took reponsibility for what, and see if you can live with that arrangement in your own eventual marriage.

5. Figure out her emotional needs, again from the Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice site. Make a judgment if you know how to meet them naturally, without really even having to try. Also, be very aware of your own emotional needs, and make a judgment of how well she meets them, perhaps by observations of her behavior in her family.

6. [I]Make some judgment about her need for financial support, a common need for women. One thing that makes my marriage work is that I earn more than enough for her to be happy financially. One other girlfriend had a rich father, and I'm glad that one ended -- she would've expected me to do the same and I don't think I could've earned enough money to give her the same lifestyle.

7. Realize this -- the most important roles in life carry risks -- having a child and getting married are two of them. Do what you can up front to identify and mitigate those risks, and then face it with courage. Life will throw curves at you, as John Lennon said "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans".

8. Seek out the opinions of of people who truly know you, and who you respect, about the compatibility of your intended spouse. I lived with a man of an Indian religion, and his marriage was arranged. All parents and even grandparents had to agree to it. He was really happy....some day I may share the details of how an arranged marriage works in his culture . It's not as bad as you think it would be, and it puts strong "quality control" on the situation to help marriages last and be fulfilling for both parties in it. I hear their success rate is very high in that culture -- evidence that family input can be important in making the decision.

Edited December 1, 2009 by mormonmusic

[pam]

Wow Mormonmusic..I nominate you for sainthood (if we as LDS did that). You appear to have more patience than even Job.

[Maya]

Why is it such an issue? Temptation seems to be the only legitimate explanation I have heard. Is it really safe to marry someone without ever having seen them at their worst?

I mean, my girlfriend can be really cranky during the day.. but can anything top her after a late night of studying combined with menstrual cramps and a bad hair day the next morning? I'm scared to find out.. before it's to late.

This is nothing I'm rushing. She's stayed with me on vacation with my family, etc. It just seems like a good idea to live together at least for a short while before marriage. We're together alone and in private all day as is.. is it really that much more dangerous? It's financially smart, too.

Listen to the deep voice of experience.... IT WONT HELP!

First even though not you not her say anything... you know what has been tought... at least I did ... and I felt so darn quilty! I had to marry him to feel better... but I should just have waited and dumpped him right then... but then I had not got my wonderfull girls... who now are out of Church because I was stupid then....

No it is NOT worth it!

ps I was not LDS then....

Edited December 1, 2009 by Maya

[Wingnut]

Frankly, bmy-, I'm not surprised to see you ask this question, or address this issue in the way you have. Your attitude seems to be a rather cavalier one when it comes to rules/practices or doctrines with which you disagree.

Your profile says you're 21 years old. You want to move in with your girlfriend now, yet you've previously stated that you think that 22 or 23 is too young to marry (which I agree with, by the way). You've also made it clear that you have no intention of marrying anytime soon. Do you honestly believe that you can live with your girlfriend for more than two years and neither of you will give in to sexual temptation? Do you plan to have separate bedrooms? Separate bathrooms? Never get carried away when making out on the couch late at night?

You've also stated in the past that there's no such thing as absolute morality. I disagree. What God has decreed is absolute, wouldn't you say? And by His mouth, or that of His prophets, it is the same, no?

Furthermore, you've also stated that you are glad that Christianity is going out of favor in society, because that's just the way of things.

With all of this, is it really reasonable to expect that any of us might convince you to not move in with your girlfriend?

Aside from all of that, does your girlfriend even get PMS? Not all women do. It may not even be an issue. And as several people have said here, PMS is not "the worst" a woman gets. You need to decide if your girlfriend is worth it to you to wait to live with her. She deserves that. Or are you looking for an excuse to dump the relationship?

Finally, why are you thinking about moving in with your girlfriend instead of serving a mission?

[Misshalfway]

Frankly, bmy-, I'm not surprised to see you ask this question, or address this issue in the way you have. Your attitude seems to be a rather cavalier one when it comes to rules/practices or doctrines with which you disagree.

Your profile says you're 21 years old. You want to move in with your girlfriend now, yet you've previously stated that you think that 22 or 23 is too young to marry (which I agree with, by the way). You've also made it clear that you have no intention of marrying anytime soon. Do you honestly believe that you can live with your girlfriend for more than two years and neither of you will give in to sexual temptation? Do you plan to have separate bedrooms? Separate bathrooms? Never get carried away when making out on the couch late at night?

You've also stated in the past that there's no such thing as absolute morality. I disagree. What God has decreed is absolute, wouldn't you say? And by His mouth, or that of His prophets, it is the same, no?

Furthermore, you've also stated that you are glad that Christianity is going out of favor in society, because that's just the way of things.

With all of this, is it really reasonable to expect that any of us might convince you to not move in with your girlfriend?

Aside from all of that, does your girlfriend even get PMS? Not all women do. It may not even be an issue. And as several people have said here, PMS is not "the worst" a woman gets. You need to decide if your girlfriend is worth it to you to wait to live with her. She deserves that. Or are you looking for an excuse to dump the relationship?

Finally, why are you thinking about moving in with your girlfriend instead of serving a mission?

Wow. Talk about using someones words against them. Is it possible for people to change their minds? Come on, you are a girl! For us we can feel and say all sorts of opposites. Anyway being 21 is all about trying on different hats. Give the kid a break.

[ADoyle90815]

Wow. Talk about using someones words against them. Is it possible for people to change their minds? Come on, you are a girl! For us we can feel and say all sorts of opposites. Anyway being 21 is all about trying on different hats. Give the kid a break.

Well said! Sure, there are people who are still married who were 21 and younger, but there are many others who are divorced even if they waited until after the wedding to move in together. When someone is in their early 20's, they're still finding out what they want to do with their lives, and many people aren't ready for marriage at that time. Often, people want to make sure they have a career first before they decide to marry and start a family. I think people should really get to know each other before marrying, even if it takes years of dating to do so. One thing about having a brain is that sometimes people use it and decide not to get married before they're ready. I think that's more mature than rushing into marriage because everyone expects you to do so.

[Wingnut]

Wow. Talk about using someones words against them. Is it possible for people to change their minds? Come on, you are a girl! For us we can feel and say all sorts of opposites. Anyway being 21 is all about trying on different hats. Give the kid a break.

I see your point. However, I still disagree. bmy- is still looking for a loophole, indicating that he doesn't take seriously the Law of Chastity.

[Misshalfway]

I see your point. However, I still disagree. bmy- is still looking for a loophole, indicating that he doesn't take seriously the Law of Chastity.

OR.....maybe his testimony isn't fully formed yet.

At least Bmy is honest. He says things straight unlike some other members who talk the peter priesthood but do other things when everyones back is turned.

[Wingnut]

Am I not saying things straight?

[Misshalfway]

That's not what I meant. You say exactly what you mean.

[Gwen]

let's everyone take a deep breath.... count to 10.... blame pms.... and get back on topic.

i have family members that lived together before marriage, some that still are. some brought kids into that relationship. some have ended very badly, some seem to be going ok for now. this is one of those issues that if you want to do it you can make the case. if you look at the long term studies it seems enough have pointed out what the "real" answers are. it's definitely not a decision one should make lightly.

[Moksha]

If you think a woman having PMS is seeing her at her "worst" then you are not even remotely ready for marriage, much less living together. Just sayin' ; )

...

That should boost Kevlar apparel sales!

[bmy-]

Frankly, bmy-, I'm not surprised to see you ask this question, or address this issue in the way you have. Your attitude seems to be a rather cavalier one when it comes to rules/practices or doctrines with which you disagree.

It's true. I grew up outside of the church.. and outside of church in general. I may be cavalier when it comes to rules and practices of the LDS church (and other things) but my future is something I take very seriously. My girlfriend is much more devout than I am, so I'm examining this in the way I am out of respect for her.

Your profile says you're 21 years old. You want to move in with your girlfriend now, yet you've previously stated that you think that 22 or 23 is too young to marry (which I agree with, by the way). You've also made it clear that you have no intention of marrying anytime soon. Do you honestly believe that you can live with your girlfriend for more than two years and neither of you will give in to sexual temptation? Do you plan to have separate bedrooms? Separate bathrooms? Never get carried away when making out on the couch late at night?

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in the OP.. I'm not there yet. It's a decision I'll have to face within the next year or two (situations at her house, etc). You raise great points on how hard it is to not give into temptation.. and frankly.. I do not have any intention of marrying anytime soon at all. I'm getting close to being ready, but life is long, so I'm taking my time.

You've also stated in the past that there's no such thing as absolute morality. I disagree. What God has decreed is absolute, wouldn't you say? And by His mouth, or that of His prophets, it is the same, no?

You really did your homework, , I still to this day deny absolute morality. What is morally 'acceptable' for a man living in an obscure tribe in southern Africa may be fine for him, and wrong for me.

Furthermore, you've also stated that you are glad that Christianity is going out of favor in society, because that's just the way of things.

Yes, I am. Religion is private and personal. Religious wants, practices, or 'rules' should not be crammed down the throats of everyone.

With all of this, is it really reasonable to expect that any of us might convince you to not move in with your girlfriend?

Aside from all of that, does your girlfriend even get PMS? Not all women do. It may not even be an issue. And as several people have said here, PMS is not "the worst" a woman gets. You need to decide if your girlfriend is worth it to you to wait to live with her. She deserves that. Or are you looking for an excuse to dump the relationship?

I'm not considering whether or not to move in with her, it's not even feasible at this point in time. I'm considering whether or not I should live with her before we get married. As a part of the engagement process. She gets PMS.. unfortunately. Besides, that was just an example.. something easily put into words to demonstrate a point.

Finally, why are you thinking about moving in with your girlfriend instead of serving a mission?

That's a topic for an entirely different thread. Basically.. I never felt the desire to.

Edited December 2, 2009 by bmy-