The LDS Industry

[InquisitiveSoul]

Justaname is making a great point. I'm not sure if it's coming across in the manner he'd like it to, as some of the responses seem to take offence rather than see the question for what it is.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't to be used for financial gain. While I don't see Church Leaders becoming wealthy from Deseret Book, there may be some who are making more than a nice living off of their art which is sold in the store.

At what point does an artist's talent become filthy lucre? Are these artists or writers exploiting the Gospel for personal gain? We can only speculate as to what their motives are, but one would certainly hope their hearts are in the right place. If their attempts to make a living or become wealthy by painting pictures of Christ bother you, then I'd say don't buy. If you find their painting inspiring and want it in your home, then you have the choice to buy.

There are distribution centers which sell scriptures and other materials for a fair and reasonable price. I bought some scriptures quite cheap, less than $10 if I remember right for a quad.

As for Deseret Book, it's been said already that the leaders don't tell you to hurry in for their latest book. It's up to you if you want to buy Elder Holland's book of if you don't. I would guess the people who do buy a book from a church leader are doing so not only because he's a leader, but because they are able to relate to him on different level than other members do. Most people do have favorites and if these books are uplifting to these members then I think that's great.

Profits made form Deseret Book are not going into President Monson's pocket, rather they remain with the Church who use this money to make further investments. The Church does have a business and real estate arm, while this does come as a surprise to many or maybe even offend some, capital is necessary for the Church to perform a wide range of functions, education, aid to those in need on a larger scale than Faster Offerings can provide, Missionary Funding, Church Defense (from law suits and more), building new Temples and Churches. There is a wide variety of needs beyond the means of tithing.

Some take offense to the Church buying malls and property in down town Salt Lake. The down town area of Salt Lake is important to the Church. As Salt Lake grows, it's important to keep family friendly businesses around the Temple and other Church buildings. It's much easier to control the kind of neighbors you will have if you own the house next door.

If the Prophet ever arrives to Conference wearing a Rolex and Armani while asking you to stop off at Deseret Book and buy his new book and posters after the meeting, then you will know something is wrong. If the Prophet begins charging for Conference appearences and offeres a meet and greet after for X amount of dollars, you know something is wrong.

Edited June 19, 2010 by InquisitiveSoul

[Snow]

BUT, I HATE the idea of people using our faith and out seeking after good things as an easy way to profit.

Am I the only one that feels like this? Im also curious as to find out when our prophets started writing books for profit. Or do they? Im trying to be open minded about this stuff, so give me your .02! (See, even I am asking for your money!)

Let's see if you know what you are talking about:

How much money do they make?

Take, for example, Thomas Monson and his Faith Rewarded: A Personal Account of Prophetic Promises to the East German Saints; how much filthy lucre did he pocket?

[Traveler]

I am not sure how to reply to this thread. I personal know artists that cater directly to the LDS market. Paul Cardall is a neighbor and personal friend. Recently he underwent a heart transplant and his entire life has been a struggle for life. He has done well with his talents but his expenses in life have kept his personal wealth humble. Many LDS artist are like him. Another good example and personal friend is Clark Kelly Price – although Clark does a lot of “Western” art that is not so exclusive LDS he does have some excellent LDS art. One particular painting of Clark’s has been lost - about a young LDS service man in WWII giving a blessing to a dying fellow comrade on the battle field. The painting sold many years ago for $25 when Clark was a struggling student at BUY and there is an effort to find and buy this painting for $30,000

Also there are some LDS artists that seem to me to take advantage of the LDS market and appear to me to be worthy of criticism. I will not give names but if someone wants to find such individuals – I believe they will not have to look too hard to be successful.

The Traveler

I thought I would add one other thing. There are non-LDS artists that cater to LDS art collecter. One in particular loves to paint LDS temples - I have one of his painting in my home - I have encouraged him to display his art where more LDS can find them - but he just does not get it. The point here is that by buying LDS art you are not always adding to the wealth of LDS members but are still good people.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Traveler
Added a thought

[pam]

Just as others have said, if it bothers you don't purchase. I'll stay in the group that doesn't consider it a big deal.

Moving on?

[Suzie]

The only issue I see are those who use church directories for example that was given to them because of their calling (and for CHURCH PURPOSES ONLY) to promote their own business/pyramid scheme. That's plain wrong.

[justaname]

Joseph F. Smith gave all the royalties of one his books to LDS Genealogical Society and LeGrand Richards didn't accept any royalties from one his famous books. The GA have the choice of giving it to charity, keep the money or simply reject it. We don't know what they do with their earnings, so it's a little unfair to speculate that the only possibility is that they are keeping it.

Everyone has the choice to keep their money or give to charity. I never raised the issue about what they are doing with their money. I raised the issue that it feels strange to me to profit from the gospel.

The responses of "if you dont like it, dont buy it" are useless. That comment contributes nothing to the issue at hand. As a long time member active member of the church, I completely understand my agency. And yes, I use my agency and choose not to purchase most of the items in question.

I wouldnt go as far to say that any of the responses to this issue have been hostile or inappropriate, I would say that there does seem to be a negative attitude about my question. The timing of this is quite interesting to me. Just recently, I had a long, LONG conversation with another member of the church about many sensitive church topics. My friend's biggest concern about the church was the fact that each time a question is asked about something that is borderline taboo, the response to the question is something like, "you just need more faith" or "thats not important to your salvation", or "you are not ready for that information yet". I am beginning to understand why my friend feels like this.

Thank you to those who chose to view my question as fair and made good attempts to answer them.

[rayhale]

Even if the Prophet, and all the Twelve Apostles, and the rest of the full-time Church leaders were all millionaires before their Church service, after awhile their money would be gone, so how do they live? Would you have the Prophet dip his hands in tithing? How about Fast Offerings? I would rather Church leaders make money from for-profit ventures, like Deseret Book, the downtown SLC mall, or from books, then from tithing.

I find a problem with people that don’t take off their Church leader hat (Bishop, Stake President, Relief Society President), when they are working, for an example, saying, “You can trust me, I’m your (Place any Church leadership position here)” Ask any salesperson who the best person to sell to. Any good salesperson would say a person with a high amount of trust with people, such as the local Minister, Priest, Bishop, R.S. Pres.; sell to them, and they will sell to all of the other church goers.

I live in Idaho, the local Wal-marts sell LDS books, which is fine, but I do have a problem when salespeople take advantage of peoples faith, like with food storage, selling people inferior products to people, with the STRONG hint that they are “helping” you keep one of the commandments.

[martybess]

Isn't true the reason Nibley didn't write more is he had a problem with making money off them? Sure wish he would written more.

[NeuroTypical]

Each time I walk into a Seagull and Deseret Book, I feel a little bit bothered by how much money is being made by "selling the gospel".

I think I see your problem. I haven't walked into either in a decade, and I'm perfectly happy.

LM

(Gets his stuff to hang on the wall free or almost free from lds.org)

[john doe]

Isn't true the reason Nibley didn't write more is he had a problem with making money off them? Sure wish he would written more.

I never met Nibley, but I doubt the story. If he were opposed to making money from the sale of his books he could have donated all the proceeds to charity, or insisted that the publisher adjust the prices and royalties, thus making them cheaper to buy.

[TheMightyQuinn]

I find it interesting that two of your responses both mentioned that the market was small, as if its not an issue because it IS small. Would you feel differently if it was in a large market?

The reason the size of the market was mentioned is because your concern about the amount of money being made, hence we pointed out they probably aren't making much money from book royalties. Therefore to us the size of the market makes no difference.

[pam]

The responses of "if you dont like it, dont buy it" are useless.

Thanks for pointing out that my comment is useless. Actually I would disagree. If you has a concern that money spent might be helping or condoning an act you disagree with, then don't buy it.

To me there isn't any right or wrong answer. Some would feel strongly that there is a problem while others won't. It seems like a moot point to even debate the issue. My point has and will continue to be, if you have a problem with it then don't indulge.

Edited June 20, 2010 by pam

[Just_A_Guy]

Well yeah. The Church takes in over $1 billion dollars in donations each week.

MOE, IIRC, as of fifteen years ago, outside estimates had the Church taking in about $6-7 billion annually.

[volgadon]

Lots of our apostles, seventy, RS, Primary and even the First Presidency write books. Obviously they arent doing it for free. They are making money as well as the publishers.

As an aspiring writer, I rather wish that your naive picture were true.

[ehkape]

Am I the only one that feels like this?

no, I have been wondering about this as well

But I am glad that there is material available somewhere. There are a lot of good books, that help to increase my undestanding or which are just a lot "easier" to read than the scriptures because they digest a gospel topic and you don't have to dig it up all for yourself.

I enjoyed Pres.Hinckleys "stand a little taller" as a nice little book to lift you up every once in a while.

What I don't like are the items you have to buy. I remember preparing for my mission.There were plenty of things I needed. A new set of scriptures in my mission language - 50USD. A scripture tote to carry it - anywhere between 10 and 50 USD.

Every missionary buys this set of "approved" books called missionary library for at least 15 USD. in the cheapest edition.

There were approx. 50,000 missionaries in the field as of Dec. 2009. That equals up to 750,000 USD for the standard missionary library alone...

When "Preach my Gospel" hit the market, every member (at least every family) was asked to buy a copy at the price of 9 USD. Imagine if only half of the membership followed the church leaders counsel, that would be worth around 7.000.000 USD

I remember a new Hymn book that was introduced as the standard . Or a new translation of the Book of Morman and D&C. (I guess that applies mainly for non-english-speaking countries.) We had to buy new editions - no way around it.

Why do I have to pay for the clothing when I go to the temple and don't bring my own stuff? And if I do, why are there different price ranges in pants, jackets, etc when the white clothing is supposed to symbolize that we are all equal? Just a thought that crossed my mind.

Im also curious as to find out when our prophets started writing books for profit. Or do they? Im trying to be open minded about this stuff, so give me your .02! (See, even I am asking for your money!)

I'm sorry to say, but the first copies of the Book of Mormon were not handed out for free, but sold to the people. So it would have started right at the beginning of the restoration, I'd say.

[pam]

Sounds like you expect everything Church related to be free.

[john doe]

What I don't like are the items you have to buy. I remember preparing for my mission.There were plenty of things I needed. A new set of scriptures in my mission language - 50USD. A scripture tote to carry it - anywhere between 10 and 50 USD.

Every missionary buys this set of "approved" books called missionary library for at least 15 USD. in the cheapest edition.

There were approx. 50,000 missionaries in the field as of Dec. 2009. That equals up to 750,000 USD for the standard missionary library alone...

So you're saying a missionary shouldn't have to own a set of scriptures and study material? How many average members would you suppose already have those books in their home anyway? I know I do, but maybe I'm the weird one.

When "Preach my Gospel" hit the market, every member (at least every family) was asked to buy a copy at the price of 9 USD. Imagine if only half of the membership followed the church leaders counsel, that would be worth around 7.000.000 USD

Actually, Preach My Gospel is $6.00US, and that probably barely covers the cost of printing and distribution. Besides which, at least my ward bought them and gave a copy to each family.

I remember a new Hymn book that was introduced as the standard . Or a new translation of the Book of Morman and D&C. (I guess that applies mainly for non-english-speaking countries.) We had to buy new editions - no way around it.

Do they make you buy your own hymnbooks where you are? Generally those are furnished by the church to the building. And no one told me I couldn't use my older, non-cross-referenced Book of Mormon. Do they kick you out of the class if you don't buy the new stuff, or threaten to not allow you to come back?

Why do I have to pay for the clothing when I go to the temple and don't bring my own stuff? And if I do, why are there different price ranges in pants, jackets, etc when the white clothing is supposed to symbolize that we are all equal? Just a thought that crossed my mind.

I would imagine that if the laundry cost (usually less than $3US) is prohibitive to you attending the temple, your local leaders probably would be able to find a way to help cover the cost.

I'm sorry to say, but the first copies of the Book of Mormon were not handed out for free, but sold to the people. So it would have started right at the beginning of the restoration, I'd say.

Yes, missionaries at various times have asked people to buy copies of the Book of Mormon, but these days you should be able to find a copy for free. It may not be the biggest, best, highest quality paper and binding, but you can get them. If you told a missionary you can't afford one, I'm sure they could furnish you with a copy.

But those are not the real reasons you decided to post here are they? Tell me, is there anything about the LDS Church that you can't complain about?

[ehkape]

a sample report by the accounting agency and the church for this nation, see the link below;

2008 Report: http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/ScannedAccounts/Ends51%5C0000242451_ac_20081231_e_c.pdf

Thanks Hemi for the link. I found it interesting to scan through. (Maybe I am the only one, who knows :))

Two things caught my attention:

#1: A total membership of 183,672 pays 31,327,000 pounds (around 46,350,000 USD) of tithing. That would be 170 pounds (250USD) per member per year.

Thats not a lot if you think about it, but taken into account that only 1/3 of the members are active and not every member is a full tithe payer (family, children, unemployed, social benefits, unfaithful, etc.) I believe its a figure that could be representing the church worldwide (but thats only a guess)

That would equal up to 3,250,000,000 USD tithing. Wow!

#2 The members donated 31,327,000 pounds but 8,959,000 pounds are spent for staff costs! Thats almost 30 % of the donations. To me, that's a lot of money. Only a few meetinghouses were remodeled and 3 new ones planned for the next year. "Only" 1,500,000 were spent on welfare.

What do you all think about these figueres? 30% of the donations going to church employees is quite a lot. Is it OK, or is it too much? I'd be interested in your replies. Might be even worth a new thread.

[ehkape]

So you're saying a missionary shouldn't have to own a set of scriptures and study material? How many average members would you suppose already have those books in their home anyway? I know I do, but maybe I'm the weird one.

no, I'm not saying that at all. A missionary needs to have study material, especially the scriptures. But most missionaries are called to a different country which means they need a NEW set of scriptures in the NEW language they will preach the gospel in. And that usually costs money. And yes, I happen to have quite a few books in my private library as well, but not in the language I might need if I was called to serve a mission in Spain, France, Japan or wherever. Just to make it clear - I'm not saying thats a problem. I'm just saying that someone spends money on it, and someone earns money on it. Thats what buisiness is about.

Actually, Preach My Gospel is $6.00US, and that probably barely covers the cost of printing and distribution. Besides which, at least my ward bought them and gave a copy to each family.

Please check yourself DeseretBook.com - Search for 'preach my gospel' I believe its 9 USD on Deseret Book

Do they make you buy your own hymnbooks where you are?

No, but if you want to practise on the piano at home, or sing with the family at home evening, or take it with you to a fireside you need your own copy.

Generally those are furnished by the church to the building. And no one told me I couldn't use my older, non-cross-referenced Book of Mormon. Do they kick you out of the class if you don't buy the new stuff, or threaten to not allow you to come back?

There was a new german translation a few years ago that members were "encouraged" to buy. It's not the cross-referencing part that was important, but the whole content was revised. Verses don't read the same in the old and new edition. We were told not to use the old edition. They would probably not kick you out, but its kind of difficult if you have sunday school and people have different versions.

I would imagine that if the laundry cost (usually less than $3US) is prohibitive to you attending the temple, your local leaders probably would be able to find a way to help cover the cost.

Its not that people are not able to afford it (A full set would be around 7 EUR or 8.50 USD at the moment) It' s just the fact, that they charge the money. Why do you have to pay to be able to worship?

Yes, missionaries at various times have asked people to buy copies of the Book of Mormon, but these days you should be able to find a copy for free. It may not be the biggest, best, highest quality paper and binding, but you can get them. If you told a missionary you can't afford one, I'm sure they could furnish you with a copy.

that was only my answer to WHEN did it start. Sure, we all know that copies are available for free these dasy

But those are not the real reasons you decided to post here are they? Tell me, is there anything about the LDS Church that you can't complain about?

I guess I don't bother giving you an answer on this one. I love my Savior and he knows how I feel.

john, I feel sad when I read your post and get the impression that all you wanted to do is tell me how stupid my comments were. The question to the thread was how we feel about books being sold by church leaders, artists or whoever else using our faith as a way to earn money. I just wrote how I felt. Is there really a need to get personal or sarcastic between the lines? I don't think so.

[ehkape]

Sounds like you expect everything Church related to be free.

No, I'm only saying there is mony involved. And we have to be aware of it

[Suzie]

Everyone has the choice to keep their money or give to charity. I never raised the issue about what they are doing with their money. I raised the issue that it feels strange to me to profit from the gospel.

The responses of "if you dont like it, dont buy it" are useless. That comment contributes nothing to the issue at hand. As a long time member active member of the church, I completely understand my agency. And yes, I use my agency and choose not to purchase most of the items in question.

I wouldnt go as far to say that any of the responses to this issue have been hostile or inappropriate, I would say that there does seem to be a negative attitude about my question. The timing of this is quite interesting to me. Just recently, I had a long, LONG conversation with another member of the church about many sensitive church topics. My friend's biggest concern about the church was the fact that each time a question is asked about something that is borderline taboo, the response to the question is something like, "you just need more faith" or "thats not important to your salvation", or "you are not ready for that information yet". I am beginning to understand why my friend feels like this.

Thank you to those who chose to view my question as fair and made good attempts to answer them.

I see what you are saying. Well, I hope you did not take my answer as trying to think your question is stupid because I truly don't think it is and yes, I agree that some of the replies you got were a little defensive (in my opinion) AND I also agree with your last comments, if you check some of my replies here you will see we think alike in that aspect.

However, I am curious as to what would be the ideal solution? What is your proposal? Would you like the Church to offer all these items for free, etc? Thanks for answering in advance.

[justaname]

I see what you are saying. Well, I hope you did not take my answer as trying to think your question is stupid because I truly don't think it is and yes, I agree that some of the replies you got were a little defensive (in my opinion) AND I also agree with your last comments, if you check some of my replies here you will see we think alike in that aspect.

However, I am curious as to what would be the ideal solution? What is your proposal? Would you like the Church to offer all these items for free, etc? Thanks for answering in advance.

I have no problem spending money on the low cost of church manuals, BOM's, and other books published such as Jesus the Christ etc. They do a wonderful job at making these texts available at a very low and fair price. If a book is being authored by someone we sustain as a prophet, seer and revelator, I would like to see these books offered at a similar low dollar price. Its not the cost that bothers me. Its the concept of these individuals profiting from their positions. As was compared earlier, this shouldnt be a market like Twilight and Harry Potter. Those books were penned for a dollar. I would be disappointed to hear that books authored by our leaders were written for the same purpose.

[Wingnut]

What I don't like are the items you have to buy. I remember preparing for my mission.There were plenty of things I needed. A new set of scriptures in my mission language - 50USD.

Funny, I was given my Spanish-language scriptures as part of my materials when I entered the MTC.

A scripture tote to carry it - anywhere between 10 and 50 USD.

Hardly a mandatory purchase.

Every missionary buys this set of "approved" books called missionary library for at least 15 USD. in the cheapest edition.

Not every missionary buys this set. This set is not required text/material for a missionary to have. It is allowed material. Additionally, the Missionary Reference Library currently costs only $12 and contains four books. Are you seriously complaining about $3 a book?

When "Preach my Gospel" hit the market, every member (at least every family) was asked to buy a copy at the price of 9 USD. Imagine if only half of the membership followed the church leaders counsel, that would be worth around 7.000.000 USD

Besides the price discrepancy that JD already pointed out (and I address below), bear in mind that only half of the Church's membership is even active, so if you want to make grandiose sweeping statements, you should base them on half of the active membership of the Church.

I remember a new Hymn book that was introduced as the standard . Or a new translation of the Book of Morman and D&C. (I guess that applies mainly for non-english-speaking countries.) We had to buy new editions - no way around it.

Again, that's funny. My mom still uses her edition of the scriptures that she purchased when she was baptized in 1977. No one has scolded her for it yet. A woman I know in my ward also uses an edition this old, despite the fact that she is younger even than my mom is.

Why do I have to pay for the clothing when I go to the temple and don't bring my own stuff? And if I do, why are there different price ranges in pants, jackets, etc when the white clothing is supposed to symbolize that we are all equal? Just a thought that crossed my mind.

If you choose to attend the temple, then you also choose to follow the rules therein, which consist in part of a certain dress code. You may provide (buy or make) your own basic clothing, but the ceremonial clothing is very specific and should not be made at home. Additionally, what you pay for is laundry services. I suppose there is some amount of the fee that goes toward making new temple clothing when existing pieces wear out. This would be a reason for a discrepancy in different sizes of pants, etc. -- a larger piece costs more to make than a smaller piece does. The Church does not make a profit from the fee you pay at the temple to rent clothing, nor what you may purchase from the Distribution Center.

I'm sorry to say, but the first copies of the Book of Mormon were not handed out for free, but sold to the people. So it would have started right at the beginning of the restoration, I'd say.

You're right -- they were sold for the cost of printing. The Church was not well enough established in renown or finances to be able to subsidize printing yet.

Please check yourself DeseretBook.com - Search for 'preach my gospel' I believe its 9 USD on Deseret Book

Deseret Book is a business. They exist in part to make a profit. If you order Preach My Gospel from Church Distribution, it is only $6.00. See for yourself here. As JD said, I think it was a pretty standard thing for a lot of wards to purchase it for the members. I know mine did.

[Snow]

Well yeah. The Church takes in over $1 billion dollars in donations each week. That doesn't include business ventures. That's strictly tithing, fast offering, and other donations on the tithing slip. That all comes from members.

Be honest now. You just made that up and it is false. Isn't that so?

[Snow]

justaname,

Guess I'll have to ask again. How much do the prophets rake in and what do they do with the dough?

Let's see if you know what you are talking about:

How much money do they make?

Take, for example, Thomas Monson and his Faith Rewarded: A Personal Account of Prophetic Promises to the East German Saints; how much filthy lucre did he pocket?