Protest for gay rights outside Mormon church offices

[dorave]

Obviously with the number of members that support my take on things Vs yours there isn't the agreement and understanding you think.

As I said the church is not a democracy.

[Soulsearcher]

As I said the church is not a democracy.

Which leads back to the reason for the protest of working to get all members on the same page.

[Mute]

This is a very difficult topic for me. I try to look at this subject from two points of views. I'm not gay. I don't find it wrong to be gay. I don't know if they're born that way or not. They believe they are. They say they know they were born that way. There may not be enough scientific evidence to prove that they were born this way but that doesn't stop them from saying it. Some animals have engaged in same sex behavior but I wouldn't say there has been sufficient proof to prove they are necessarily gay or just acting similar to the way an aroused male dog would with a pillow.

Just because they do not have "proof", does that mean you should dismiss the possibility that they are born that way the same as an atheist dismisses religion because of lack of proof? I understand some people find it wrong. I understand many religions believe it is evil. Is there any reason that any of you honestly finds it wrong other than because it talks about it briefly in the Bible?

Prop 8 is not taking away a right from gays but it is preventing them from gaining a right straight couples have much in the same way women protested because they wanted to be able to vote the same as men.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Mute

[PrinceofLight2000]

Well the church is not a democracy, so regardless of peoples activity it does not change truth.

Evenso the quicker you cease from making broad generalisations the better place you'd find yourself in.

Tell me, dorave, do you hold the official changes made to the talk as being "democracy" as well?

Nine Moons Blog Archive : Departing the Text: Changes to Elder Packer’s Conference Talk – UPDATED Departing the Text: Changes to Elder Packer’s Conference Talk – UPDATED

[carlimac]

Except if you look at the quotes from the talks i posted, the protesters were simply asking for the church to stick to this stance. They were asking nothing more than for the church to clearly define this stance as it had in the past and make it clear for member to know that the stance in those talks is really what the Church holds. It's not only that gay people think there's a lack of understanding from members towards gays, it's that members don't understand the Church's declared stance themselves. In case you haven't kept up i have no problem with what the church claims is their official stance as provided from many talks on the subject over the last decade, my issue if members not listening to their leaders and making up their own doctrine. No one is questioning the official doctrine as laid out constantly in talks by leadership, we just want members to follow it.

Isn't a rally of thousands of people a little overkill in trying to get a church ( that they probably mostly don't even belong to) to clarify a stance? You really think this many people got toegether just to make sure we are following our doctrine?? This make me laugh. I don't think their motive is anything that genteel.

I think the rally and 100,000 letters to President Monson add up to a group mentality. I think that many ( possibly a loud minority- I'll give em that) gays and lesbians love a rally- love a bashing party, love to shock and incense LDS members and are doing this just for the thrill of it. The kiss- ins? Same thing.

Why do they CARE so much what the church thinks? I personally don't think they really do care. The church is an easy target because it doesn't fight back. It's a dang easy platform for gays to climb up on. Just as LDS tend to like to hang out with their own kind, like to be with those that "understand" us, gays and lesbians like that, too. LDS are quirky. Gays are quirky. I think that this rally amounts to a chance to hang with thousands of others who supposedly "understand" each other- a general conference of sorts. Just as we feel a swelling of testimony as we sing "The Spirit of God" with thousands of others at a general conference, I think gays are emboldened in a group. (Only what they are feeling isn't the Holy Ghost- more like a simple adrenalin rush.) They can yell and say whatever they like and be protected by the group. They can say stuff they'd never say to their next door neighbor face to face. They probably wouldn't even know what to say to President Monson or President Packer one on one if they had the chance. I would bet that many who were rallying hadn't even read or heard Pres. Packer's talk, and probably don't really "get" the Church's stance anyway. They just heard there was going to be a rally and said- "Cool! I'm there!"

Just my observation of rally after gay rally. Honestly, it's getting a bit old.

Edited October 11, 2010 by carlimac

[skippy740]

Well, I don't mind the attention to the Church at all.

The more press (no matter how negative), the more that those who are spiritually-minded will be touched by the message of the Church.

http://www.lds.net/forums/preserving-marriage-between-man-woman/15874-uplifting-message-la-temple-worker.html

[Soulsearcher]

Isn't a rally of thousands of people a little overkill in trying to get a church ( that they probably mostly don't even belong to) to clarify a stance?

I think the rally and 100,000 letters to President Monson add up to a group mentality. I think that many ( possibly a loud minority- I'll give em that) gays and lesbians love a rally- love a bashing party, love to shock and incense LDS members and are doing this just for the thrill of it. The kiss- ins? Same thing.

Why do they CARE so much what the church thinks? I personally don't think they really do care. The church is an easy target because it doesn't fight back. It's a dang easy platform for gays to climb up on. Just as LDS tend to like to hang out with their own kind, like to be with those that "understand" us, gays and lesbians like that, too. LDS are quirky. Gays are quirky. I think that this rally amounts to a chance to hang with thousands of others who supposedly "understand" each other- a general conference of sorts. Just as we feel a swelling of testimony as we sing "The Spirit of God" with thousands of others at a general conference, I think gays are emboldened in a group. (Only what they are feeling isn't the Holy Ghost- more like a simple adrenalin rush.) They can yell and say whatever they like and be protected by the group. They can say stuff they'd never say to their next door neighbor face to face. They probably wouldn't even know what to say to President Monson or President Packer one on one if they had the chance. I would bet that many who were rallying hadn't even read or heard Pres. Packer's talk, and probably don't really "get" the Church's stance anyway. They just heard there was going to be a rally and said- "Cool! I'm there!"

Just my observation of rally after gay rally. Honestly, it's getting a bit old.

A member of the church and of this forum today posted a list of dead gay mormons and pretty much said that they deserved to be dead because they were gay today. It's getting old that there are some members that think this and that some other members don't really care. You ask why gays keep doing rallies. If you saw person after person you know kill themselves and in their suicide notes time after time they gave the reason that they couldn't meet the expectation set before them and people just refused to listen and try to understand them, wouldn't you possibly try to make a stand? It's real, i know a lot of people want to think it's just weak people and it makes them sleep better at night thinking there's nothing they did and nothing they can do. It's easy to dismiss that which you don't like, don't want to understand and think is wrong. I'm sorry you see no point in people trying to save lives, in the end it shows where your priorities are and it makes me sad, but also shows why there will be more rallies.

[cofchristcousin]

Soulsearcher, for your forehead, from banging it against that wall. I am in awe of your persistent kindness and patience.

Edited October 11, 2010 by cofchristcousin

[Soulsearcher]

Soulsearcher, for your forehead, from banging it against that wall. I am in awe of your persistent kindness and patience.

lol Gotta keep trying, I'm tired of hearing about dead people who reached out and got their hands slapped. I've been there enough that i wish someone had fought hard enough to let me know i didn't have to be as scared as i am.

[GADBabaganoosh]

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Here is a very insightful note, from someone who lived a gay lifestyle and chose tho change.

[pam]

I've stayed out of this until now. To be honest I'm tired of the debate.

I am inclined to suggest to all of us to heed the words of the statement expressed by the Church made in the last day. That all of us need to treat each other with civility, understanding and love.

Our General Authorities have spoken time and time again that we love our brothers and sisters who have tendencies to SSA or SGR. I agree with them. Not once have any of them ever said that they wish them dead or anything even remotely close to it. In fact quite the opposite. To use scripture to perpetuate what some would perceive as hate is abhorrent to me. I truly believe that's why we have modern day prophets. To provide the guidance needed in "our time" for issues that relate more frequently to our time as well.

Even in 2 of the talks given this last General Conference, the 14 Fundamental Principes were emphasized. One of them being:

The living prophet is more vital to us that the Standard Works.

Living Prophets have clearly emphasized love not complete condemnation. And certainly not that those who are gay will perish in the fiery pits of hell (as some would like us to believe).

There has to be understanding on both sides. The Church condemns sexual relations outside of marriage by anyone. That means heterosexual or homosexual. The Church is not going to change their stand regarding marriage and how marriage is defined by God.

So while I understand this is a very sensitive subject for some, let's again treat each other with civility, love and understanding as I mentioned earlier.

Edited October 11, 2010 by pam

[curtishouse]

A member of the church and of this forum today posted a list of dead gay mormons and pretty much said that they deserved to be dead because they were gay today. It's getting old that there are some members that think this and that some other members don't really care. You ask why gays keep doing rallies. If you saw person after person you know kill themselves and in their suicide notes time after time they gave the reason that they couldn't meet the expectation set before them and people just refused to listen and try to understand them, wouldn't you possibly try to make a stand? It's real, i know a lot of people want to think it's just weak people and it makes them sleep better at night thinking there's nothing they did and nothing they can do. It's easy to dismiss that which you don't like, don't want to understand and think is wrong. I'm sorry you see no point in people trying to save lives, in the end it shows where your priorities are and it makes me sad, but also shows why there will be more rallies.

I didn't see that horrible list that somebody posted earlier. I am guessing that it was immediately deleted and the user banned hopefully.

We all should be showing love and compassion. It seems that this thread has derailed into something that really isn't Christ-like imo. We all have our feelings on the subject and we all are willing to share our opinions but, with the love removed, it is nothing but the old game of "I'm right and you're wrong" above everything else and I've had more than my fair share of tasting it in other forums and it's way too bitter.

I definitely feel for those that were so depressed and felt that the only solution was taking their own lives so the pain would go away. That is why love and compassion are so important. It's all well and good to be well versed in doctrine but, if the love doesn't accompany it, it is of no use to the world and we wont be able to help anybody. Just something to think about. God bless.

[dorave]

Tell me, dorave, do you hold the official changes made to the talk as being "democracy" as well?

Nine Moons Blog Archive : Departing the Text: Changes to Elder Packer’s Conference Talk – UPDATED Departing the Text: Changes to Elder Packer’s Conference Talk – UPDATED

The church alters its statements all the time, as the authorities see fit, does not mean public opinion of a majority will always dictate its actions.

[dorave]

I'm sorry you see no point in people trying to save lives, in the end it shows where your priorities are and it makes me sad,

This is an offensive and highly judgemental statement and I think deserves to be edited.

[Wingnut]

This is an offensive and highly judgemental statement and I think deserves to be edited.

[Gwen]

i think part of the issue going on here is many are still arguing the issues that surrounded prop 8. maybe for some of the protesters that's all this was, another chance to go at the mormons and they didn't understand what was going on. i'm sure for many members that's all they saw, another chance for gays to come after them and it was just one more thing.

the issue at hand, that came after the talk, was not about prop 8. the talk made that very clear. the church will not change it's stance on gay marriage and a vote by law of the land will not alter god's laws. that was an important message that needed to be clarified for both members and non members alike. that is not the part of the talk being protested.

also thrown in there was a statement that is easily misunderstood and proved to be very painful. the statement could be taken to mean 2 different things... only one of them was the intended meaning. this was the purpose behind the protest. no one wanted to change church doctrine. simply make it more clear so there is only one way to take the message.

one was how i heard it (and choose to think was the intended message lol but that's how we all see it right?) was that heavenly father would not do that to someone. the fall into this imperfect life might do that to someone but if it does heavenly father will make a way for them to resist that temptation. heavenly father is there to help us get back not to put road blocks in our way, this world will do that well enough on it's own. i think many who also view it this way have a hard time understanding why there would be a need to protest this.

the flip side of the coin is those that heard the question 'why would heavenly father do this to anyone' as a confirmation that it didn't come from god, ie biology. therefore the attraction to same gender is a full choice. this thinking takes us back to a very ugly time in our society, a way of thinking that many have spent most of their lives trying to overcome. a society (and in our own religion) that gays can be "fixed". the solution was everything from verbal therapy, to physical torture via shock therapy treatments. and it didn't "fix" anyone. that's when society started to make the move from "you are just being rebellious and nasty" to "there may be a lot more to this than we realized".

the issue isn't being taken with the ppl that see the comments as a message of love. the issue is taken out of fear of those that refuse to leave the old thinking of 'let's beat it out of them, verbally, emotionally, physically, whatever it takes' and what actions they may take "in the name of god" using the comments as their rational. we all know to well the horrors that can be done by those acting violently "in the name of god". those ppl can be very dangerous. it's the thinking that causes parents to disown their children. it's the thinking that causes ppl to torment another and cast them out even when they aren't acting on the feelings. this is what leads teens to suicide, it's what leads adults to suicide, it's what makes ppl that want to be part of the church in every other way give up hope and walk away from things that were important to them. those things should cause anyone with christ like love to feel pain for/with them.

another issue i see coming from this and i think would end a lot of the tension and allow for the love that the general authorities have called for...

when you have someone that is in the church or wants to be part of the church and they say but... i am attracted to the same gender. those ppl you support with love, encourage them to keep the law of chastity. (being in a culture where you can't say why you choose not to marry and once you hit 21 everyone asks "why aren't you married yet" doesn't make that easy.) but when we meet someone outside the church who does not hold our values we do not have the right to demand celibacy of them. if they ask our beliefs then by all means share it. but we don't have the right to impose that upon them. if a vote comes to the land we have the right and obligation even to vote our conscious. if the law of the land doesn't go the direction we would have liked that does not give us the right to berate and belittle ppl. we accept that to the extent of the law. agency is the first and foremost eternal principle that this entire existence was founded upon, we can not dismiss it now.

when i see someone with a lot of tattoos i don't walk up and tell them how horrible they are for defiling a temple of god. i don't say anything, they have their agency. if they want to discuss it with me i share my beliefs in a respectful way. i'm not better than them and they have the right to not believe as much as i have the right to believe. so why is it so hard to see gays the same way? if i see a gay couple i don't feel a need to go up and berate them with my beliefs. if they ask we can discuss it with respect and love. we need to remember agency in all things. i don't want to know what someone does in their bedroom nor do i want them to know what i do in mine. when i see a straight couple i don't automatically envision them having sex. i see them as two ppl, what they do in their bedroom never crosses my mind, even if they are announcing they are pregnant i get no imagery. when i talk to a gay couple the same is true. i don't care what they do in their bedroom. that is their agency. ppl spend to much time worrying about others' sex life. many have pointed out dwelling on inappropriate thoughts is also a sin so..... i guess no one here can cast the first stone.

the bottom line is, as i understood it, the protest was not about prop 8 or changing church doctrine. it was about being conscious of how we say things, seeking christ like love and compassion so the unnecessary pain can end. can any of us really argue with that?

[MarginOfError]

Gwen, are you saying that people are using an ambiguous phrase to hear whatever it is they want to hear? I can't imagine something like that happening.

[Gwen]

Gwen, are you saying that people are using an ambiguous phrase to hear whatever it is they want to hear? I can't imagine something like that happening.

i know it's hard to believe and i'm still in shock myself but i do think that's what this world has come to. i guess it really is the last days.

[carlimac]

I'm sorry you see no point in people trying to save lives, in the end it shows where your priorities are and it makes me sad, but also shows why there will be more rallies.

Laughing, too. My priorities? Yes I think it's important to save lives. But rallies don't do it!

Did you notice I said it's the "loud minority" of gays who are doing this. I doubt that every gay person in Salt Lake City was there. The ones who are smart and TRUELY want to make a difference are at home on their knees pleading for inspiration. They are sitting down with their bishops (if they are LDS) humbly asking for help in knowing how to live in peace with their dilemma. They are working one on one with those they know are in danger of taking their lives to help them feel loved and worthy. They are trying to help them look outward at the good they can do in the world rather than being so laser focused on their sexuality.

I'm sorry you took my post the way you did. Of course it's important to save lives. But I think rallies are a glorified tantrum and defeat any worthy purpose they might have.

[MarginOfError]

Laughing, too. My priorities? Yes I think it's important to save lives. But rallies don't do it!

Did you notice I said it's the "loud minority" of gays who are doing this. I doubt that every gay person in Salt Lake City was there. The ones who are smart and TRUELY want to make a difference are at home on their knees pleading for inspiration. They are sitting down with their bishops (if they are LDS) humbly asking for help in knowing how to live in peace with their dilemma. They are working one on one with those they know are in danger of taking their lives to help them feel loved and worthy. They are trying to help them look outward at the good they can do in the world rather than being so laser focused on their sexuality.

I'm sorry you took my post the way you did. Of course it's important to save lives. But I think rallies are a glorified tantrum and defeat any worthy purpose they might have.

You're right--because the silent majority has historically been so effective at altering the way people perceive the world.

[Gwen]

Laughing, too. My priorities? Yes I think it's important to save lives. But rallies don't do it!

Did you notice I said it's the "loud minority" of gays who are doing this. I doubt that every gay person in Salt Lake City was there. The ones who are smart and TRUELY want to make a difference are at home on their knees pleading for inspiration. They are sitting down with their bishops (if they are LDS) humbly asking for help in knowing how to live in peace with their dilemma. They are working one on one with those they know are in danger of taking their lives to help them feel loved and worthy. They are trying to help them look outward at the good they can do in the world rather than being so laser focused on their sexuality.

I'm sorry you took my post the way you did. Of course it's important to save lives. But I think rallies are a glorified tantrum and defeat any worthy purpose they might have.

can you name me one major civil rights change that has been made in this country without a protest of some kind? i can't think of any but would love to know of one if it exists.

[Soulsearcher]

Laughing, too. My priorities? Yes I think it's important to save lives. But rallies don't do it!

Did you notice I said it's the "loud minority" of gays who are doing this. I doubt that every gay person in Salt Lake City was there. The ones who are smart and TRUELY want to make a difference are at home on their knees pleading for inspiration. They are sitting down with their bishops (if they are LDS) humbly asking for help in knowing how to live in peace with their dilemma. They are working one on one with those they know are in danger of taking their lives to help them feel loved and worthy. They are trying to help them look outward at the good they can do in the world rather than being so laser focused on their sexuality.

I'm sorry you took my post the way you did. Of course it's important to save lives. But I think rallies are a glorified tantrum and defeat any worthy purpose they might have.

The fact is that long before the rallies people were doing just this and guess what, the body count went up. They kept silent, they tried to hope and pray things would change. Finally the saw "if people really don't know what their words and actions do, how will silence help? How will them not being told help?" So they made it public, they put the issue that was ignored and hidden public. Again I'm sorry you don't see the need for this, but coming from the side that did everything in silence for so long, there's a reason we know it's not working and something needs to change. The church doesn't try and teach in silence. They send very determined young men and women out into the world to proclaim loud and proud their truth. The church would never try to spread the word buy just hiding in their homes on their knees praying, they are proactive cause they know they need to be.

Also they don't need to be talking with a bishop who still hasn't learned to follow the doctrine. They can work and work with people at risk of suicide, but if their entire ward it against them because they don't get the doctrine then one against an army tend to have poor results. They are trying to teach members that there isn't a laser focus on the sexuality, that gay doesn't mean sinner.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Soulsearcher

[Wingnut]

Laughing, too. My priorities? Yes I think it's important to save lives. But rallies don't do it!

Did you notice I said it's the "loud minority" of gays who are doing this. I doubt that every gay person in Salt Lake City was there. The ones who are smart and TRUELY want to make a difference are at home on their knees pleading for inspiration. They are sitting down with their bishops (if they are LDS) humbly asking for help in knowing how to live in peace with their dilemma. They are working one on one with those they know are in danger of taking their lives to help them feel loved and worthy. They are trying to help them look outward at the good they can do in the world rather than being so laser focused on their sexuality.

I'm sorry you took my post the way you did. Of course it's important to save lives. But I think rallies are a glorified tantrum and defeat any worthy purpose they might have.

If that's why you're laughing, then you might want to un-thank my laugh post. I was laughing at Dorave's supposed righteous indignation at Soulsearcher.

[Blackmarch]

The LDS Church re-emphasized Thursday night that its doctrine on marriage and family is based on respect and love, as 2,000-3,000 people protested for gay rights and recognition in downtown Salt Lake City.

2,000-3,000 protest for gay rights outside Mormon church offices in Salt Lake City | Deseret News

ksl.com - Gay rights activists protest LDS Church leader's remarks

Good grief. such actions only will increase divides.

[carlimac]

If that's why you're laughing, then you might want to un-thank my laugh post. I was laughing at Dorave's supposed righteous indignation at Soulsearcher.

Am I detecting some gang mentality here? I can usually count on you, MOE, Gwen and a few others to pounce on my conservative ideals. Soulsearcher's comment was pretty presumptuous. I wasn't terribly offended by it - more amused (hence the laughter) at Soulsearchers predictability at reacting to anything I write like this. Usually over the top. Where in my post did I indicate I didn't care about suicidal gay kids? I actually DO care and believe it's a problem. But I DONT think a gay rally will change anything nor can we blame Elder Boyd K Packer for those suicides. He wasn't there holding the gun to their heads or force feeding them drugs. Their suicides are a reaction and decision on their part to give up.

I DO understand the dilemma gays have in the church. I'm far more sensitive to it than you give me credit for. Thanks to some intelligent posts quite awhile ago by GaySaint I understand that some see the doctrine as holding no promise of hope for being able to ever have sex (the way they want it) or exist in a family-type relationship. It's a sticky situation. I feel for them in their pain. But I believe there are answers out there on how they can personally handle life, still find daily joy and and still be a member of the church. Those answers will be different for each individual. The answers need to be found in quiet times of righteously and humbly coming before Heavenly Father. Not in storming temple square with picket signs and obscenities.

I know gays and their friends and supporters don't like this analogy, but how is their situation any different from hetero singles in the church? I understand the "hope" factor. But in reality, many hetero singles have no more chance of getting married and having a sexual relationship or a family than gays do. I know many of them personally. They are my friends a nd relatives in some cases. They aren't bitterly protesting against the church trying to get the leaders to give them a pass or change some nuanced statement. They aren't out there saying- "Your doctrines are making me feel suicidal." They ARE out there in the world doing the best they can, trying to make the world a better place, trying to live a Christ like life, focusing on all the blessings the gospel gives them and the hope of eternal life. They are doing genealogy, serving as CEOs of successful businesses, teaching primary and Sunday School classes, expanding their knowledge in school, going to foreign countries to teach basic life skills, working in orphanages, planting gardens, serving in soup kitchens, spending time with beloved family. Are they still attracted to people of the opposite sex? I believe they are. Are they tempted? Of course- that's part of our earthly experience. Do they hurt some everyday because of their circumstances? Probably. But they aren't allowing themselves to act victimized. They aren't SO focused on their lack of sex or intimate relationship that they feel the need to rally or call excessive attention to their plight. Some hetero single people do better than others. But they all are given the ability to withstand temptation and come through successfully if they will rely on Heavenly Father rather than the world. Same for gays.

I stand by my opinion inspite of those who disagree with me. And I stand by President Packer for saying boldly what needs to be said. Does the Lord lock us into a place of temptation by giving us inborn tendencies that totally rule our lives? No! He is our Father! Why would he do such a thing? That flies in the face of the very plan of salvation.

Edited October 11, 2010 by carlimac