Did your ward receive letters from the First Presidency ?

[lizzy12]

We had quite a few letters read to us about self awarness groups and having bringing another person into a sexual exchange....

During the Self Awarness letter I was a little bit confused...They said they discourged groups that made you get up early or were late at night. Isn't that kind of what seminary is?

Maybe I'm missing something?

[Suzie]

I don't recall these letters. Could you please tell us more about each one?

[PrinceofLight2000]

We had quite a few letters read to us about self awarness groups and having bringing another person into a sexual exchange....

During the Self Awarness letter I was a little bit confused...They said they discourged groups that made you get up early or were late at night. Isn't that kind of what seminary is?

Maybe I'm missing something?

Haha, I thought of that too. I think it may have been a poorly worded way of describing things to look out for that these "self-awareness" groups are conspicuously known for. Making you get up early or going in late at night is just one of those attributes.

[lizzy12]

well, I think one was referring to groups relating to sex....like groups that encourged husbands and wives to have a 3rd person in their relationship. That what I got from it.

And..i kinda forget what the other letters were about. I think there was more then one...

Is there a place to view them on lds.org?

[NeuroTypical]

For those of you who haven't got the faintest clue what this 1st pres letter was about, you're fine.

For those of you who do, I'm sure you're not surprised to discover the church is against them.

LM

[Dravin]

well, I think one was referring to groups relating to sex....like groups that encourged husbands and wives to have a 3rd person in their relationship. That what I got from it.

And..i kinda forget what the other letters were about. I think there was more then one...

Is there a place to view them on lds.org?

LDS Church News - From the First Presidency

[Suzanne627]

The letters were read last week during Sacrament.

I like what LM said, and I second that.

[MarginOfError]

I think this is the third time I've seen this letter sent from the First Presidency in the past 12 years. Clearly it continues to be a problem.

Some things to consider: Anyone who promotes that they can increase your spirituality for a commercial fee is exploiting you. Spirituality can be developed independently of money (make the arguments about tithing as much as you wish, but until you can demonstrate that individuals are benefiting from the collection of tithes, it isn't the same thing).

Seminary wouldn't fall into this category because it is not a commercial enterprise. Early morning seminary teachers volunteer their time and don't normally encourage you to violate gospel principles.

Anyway, your instincts are usually very good at figuring out when a program is trying to exploit you and when it isn't. If you have doubts, check with your priesthood leaders. Usually they know what programs are sanctioned by the Church, or at least can find out.

[PrinceofLight2000]

I think this is the third time I've seen this letter sent from the First Presidency in the past 12 years. Clearly it continues to be a problem.

Some things to consider: Anyone who promotes that they can increase your spirituality for a commercial fee is exploiting you. Spirituality can be developed independently of money (make the arguments about tithing as much as you wish, but until you can demonstrate that individuals are benefiting from the collection of tithes, it isn't the same thing).

Seminary wouldn't fall into this category because it is not a commercial enterprise. Early morning seminary teachers volunteer their time and don't normally encourage you to violate gospel principles.

Anyway, your instincts are usually very good at figuring out when a program is trying to exploit you and when it isn't. If you have doubts, check with your priesthood leaders. Usually they know what programs are sanctioned by the Church, or at least can find out.

Scientology?

[NeuroTypical]

I was thinking Living Scriptures.

"You want to have the spirit in your home, don't you?"

[Elphaba]

I have family members who, in the past, were into these types of groups BIG time! The particular one that most of them invested in was started by Max Skousen. These family members would still be heavily involved in it if the group hadn't disbanded years ago. It sort of lost steam after Skousen's death, but my mother tried to find a surviving group as recent as last year. (I actually did the search for her, but found nothing.)

This letter sounds like it was written specifically for this particular organization. I know, because I went to the "seminar."

Elphaba

[john doe]

I have a coworker whose in-laws were involved in the self-awareness thing. The particular group they became involved with pretty much portrayed itself as being endorsed by the church. They would engage in long meetings into late in the night, keeping the subjects awake and eventually breaking them down by separating them from their spouse, putting them in situations with other members of the opposite sex which might include discussion of intimate things, or encouraging them to open up about every portion of their lives, even the most inner, deep, dark secrets or thoughts they may hold. Sometimes these sessions would last all night, until you had lost all resistance to their continual harassment and badgering and gave yourself over to them. Once you had broken down completely they would then begin a process of building you back up. I believe the idea is that you need to be broken before you can rebuild yourself, using your shortcomings to your advantage and focusing on your strengths. They also push the belief that you can't fully know yourself and be a successful person until you acknowledge your weaknesses and face them head on. They would use and pervert LDS Church principles to help further this agenda. It has become a problem in some areas of the church, especially in some of the more affluent areas.

[livy111us]

Personally, I think they are referring to a group in Utah formerly called "Harmony", now called "Impact Training".

Here is the letter from the First Presidency with the things that they do which you should avoid, followed with how Impact Training does those exact things.

LDS Church News - Members counseled about self-awareness groups

“Policies and Announcements,” Ensign, Sept. 2001, 78

The First Presidency sent the following letter, dated 11 May 2001, to General Authorities; Area Authority Seventies; stake, mission, and district presidents; and bishops and branch presidents, to be read in sacrament meeting.

It has come to our attention that some commercial enterprises promising heightened self-esteem, improved family relationships, increased spirituality and the like by participating in their programs are implying Church endorsement. Such claims are untrue and unfounded. The Church has not endorsed any such enterprise. Neither should the Church’s failure to formally challenge any such enterprise coming to its attention be construed as a tacit endorsement or stamp of approval.

We repeat the counsel set forth in the Church Handbook of Instructions, page 157:

“Church members should not participate in groups that:

“1. Challenge religious and moral values or advocate unwarranted confrontation with spouse or family members as a means of reaching one’s potential.

“2. Imitate sacred rites or ceremonies.

“3. Foster physical contact among participants.

“4. Meet late into the evening or in the early-morning hours.

“5. Encourage open confession or disclosure of personal information normally discussed only in confidential settings.

“6. Cause a husband and wife to be paired with other parties.”

We strongly counsel against affiliation with any such group and warn against believing any claim of Church approval, tacit or otherwise, by any private organization offering “experiential” or “empowerment” training.”

From Impact Trainings website:

“The Impact Trainings are unique in this world. Each training is targeted at a different aspect of life and is designed to empower the human spirit toward a free, unconditional loving and joyful life.”

“Our purpose is to provide experiential trainings that will assist you in taking on your life”

“For the fifth time since 1989, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is warning its members to stay clear of such personal empowerment programs. The governing First Presidency recently issued a statement saying the church does not endorse "commercial enterprises promising heightened self-esteem, improved family relationships, increased spirituality and the like.’… Meetings can go past midnight. Participants are paired with "buddies," often of the opposite sex, rather than their spouses, and hugging is encouraged. Some Harmony practices, such as foot washing, are similar to rituals occasionally performed in LDS temples and often in other Christian churches.” (Self-Awareness Groups Have LDS Church Feeling Edgy, The Salt Lake Tribune/June 23, 2001 By Peggy Fletcher Stack)

Quoting the First Presidency with commentary of what Impact Training practices:

1. Challenge religious and moral values or advocate unwarranted confrontation with spouse or family members as a means of reaching one's potential.

As a part of the Lift Off training, trainees are asked to write a letter to a family member describing all of the ways that their relationship has been disfunctional in the past. As a "Plus One" challenge, trainees are told to mail or read the letter to that family member. While the intent of the exercise is to foster an improved relationship, the act of mailing or reading the letter definitely "advocates unwarranted confrontation as a means of reaching one's potential."

Both of my adult children who have attended these seminars have engaged me in what I would easily consider "unwarranted confrontation" as a direct result in their participation in the Impact Training Seminars. I have had lengthy conversations with both of my kids regarding negative memories that re-surfaced as a result of their training, whether real or imaginary. My adorable mid 20's age son, with whom I have always had a very loving relationship, accused me of spanking him at an early age, and he claimed he remembered the spankings as part of his Impact Trainings. I NEVER in my life laid a hand on my son, but now he claims that he remembers me spanking him.

At the recommendation of the staff at Impact and through "meditation and reflection" she "remembered" that her father had sexually abused her repeatedly throughout her entire life but she had repressed each incident (she claimed that there were hundreds) until her trainings allowed her to deal with the "memories". She claimed that she was molested in LDS temples, churches and other extremely unlikely places. Soon after Debbie's "memories" began resurfacing she started taking her children to see the TIT3 power coach and they started to experience "repressed memories" about their grandfather as well.

2. Imitate sacred rites or ceremonies.

As a part of the Summit Training, trainees are encouraged to wash each others' feet as a part of a particular process. This is an obvious imitation of a rite or ceremony that is sacred to people of many faiths.

Impact Training Has "sacred" Trainer in Training 3 rites and influences.

When I went to my children's graduation from Quest, I noticed jewelry for sale in the lobby. I saw a specific hand symbol, or sign, on several of the pieces of Jewelry. When I asked the young woman who was selling the jewelry about the hand sign, and what it meant, she told me that it was a secret that I could only learn if I took the trainings. I later learned the meaning of this secret sign of the hand. Those of you who have gone through an LDS endowment ceremony may recognize the similarity in the hand sign, and one that is given in the Temple.

Additonally, when I asked the employees of the Impact Training Facility specific questions regarding what goes on the training seminars, they told me that they could not tell me what was being taught in the seminars, because the information was secret.

3. Foster physical contact among participants.

Hugging and other physical contact is encouraged and expected.

When I attended my children's graduation, I was amazed at the lack of boundaries that the participants had, in regards to giving and receiving full body hugs. After the graduation was over, it seemed as if the entire auditorium was melting into one big group hug. Males hugged males, females hugged females, males hugged females, etc. And some of the hugs were not just quick, grandmother type hugs, but long, full body hugs. In my opinion, the use of the graduation for a big hug-fest, even among strangers, was in clear violation of the warning regarding "physical contact among particants."

4. Meet late into the evening or in the early-morning hours.

Most of my core trainings and nearly all of my TIT trainings ended long after midnight.

A quick visit the main informational and advertising website for the Impact Trainings Seminars provides easy proof of what I consider to be a violation of this warning. Both Quest and Summit training weeks include a starting time of 11:30 am, and an ending time of 11:30 pm, on a daily basis. My daughter said that the ending time was only a "suggested" ending time, and that her group stayed until at least midnight, or 1:00 in the morning, on a routine basis during both Quest and Summit.

Even the graduation started at 9:30 on a Saturday night, and I had had enough by 11:00 pm, and left. I have been told that the graduation ceremonies, and the meet-and-greet part afterward, may extend as late as midnight, on a routine basis.

5. Encourage open confession or disclosure of personal information normally discussed only in confidential settings.

In the first day of the Quest Training, I was asked to disclose my "deepest and darkest secret" to another member of my training group.

I do not wish to violate confidences that my daughter has shared with me, but she reported to me that the trainers sometimes push the participants to work through their pain, and their issues, by publicly disclosing personal or painful information with the group.

6. Cause a husband and wife to be paired with other partners."

Husbands and wives were paired with other partners at every level of the core trainings, often with another member of the oposite sex.

Some Graduates of Impact Training claim that Impact has a letter from the First Presidency saying that their admonition to avoid groups like Impact, was not actually referring to Impact, but to other groups. Some go as far to say that this letter is an endorsement from the First Presidency regarding Impacts methods and training. Perhaps this is why the First Presidency stated “It has come to our attention that some commercial enterprises promising heightened self-esteem, improved family relationships, increased spirituality and the like by participating in their programs are implying Church endorsement. Such claims are untrue and unfounded. The Church has not endorsed any such enterprise. Neither should the Church’s failure to formally challenge any such enterprise coming to its attention be construed as a tacit endorsement or stamp of approval.”

However, after obtaining a copy of this letter, neither explanation fits what is the letter actually says. It reads:

Dear Brother Berger:

I have been asked to acknowledge your letter of March 11, 1990, to the First Presidency.

The Church’s Bulletin item on self-awareness groups offers general information for the use of priesthood leaders and members of their wards and stakes. No groups were mentioned by name in the item. It is the responsibility of each member to educate himself about such matters so he can make an informed judgment whether to associate with such a group, and whether the group’s practices and procedures meet his standards.

In view of the above, it would not be feasible to arrange for you to meet with the First Presidency about your particular business.

I also have been asked to extend best wishes to you, and to advise you that a copy of this response has been forwarded to your stake president for his information.

Sincerely yours,

F. Michael Watson

Secretary of the First Presidency

Better Business Bureau says this about Impact:

Harmony Institute | Better Business Bureau Review | Salt Lake City, UT

“This company offers training that is commonly referred to as Large Group Awareness Training programs or LGAT. Training of this type often involves dozens or hundreds of participants in intense instruction aimed at discovering what is hindering participants from achieving their full potential in life.

Programs of this type have gone under the names, EST, Insight Seminars, Phoenix 2000, Mind Dynamics, Landmark Forum, Lifespring, The Forum, Momentus, Impact Training, Discovery Training and Harmony.

While promoters of these programs provide testimonial evidence of their program successes, few if any of these programs have attempted to test their processes in order to substantiate claims that might establish a degree of effectiveness to their methods. Few if any have established criteria for what counts as a success, and few if any keep records or report "failures" or those who feel they didn't receive promised results, or perhaps were harmed by the program.

Those attending the seminars or training have reported that part of the process is a "tearing down" of the individual which includes being subjected to verbal abuse, insults, ridicule or humiliation. The BBB has been presented with complaints from participants indicating that they experienced psychological disturbances or episodes as a side-effect of the training. Studies done by mental health professionals have also identified this possible side effect of the training.

Because these seminars are presented as education, trainers and presenters are not required to be licensed as mental health professionals in many states, inluding Utah. However the focus of the training is clearly behavioral, psychological and personal relationships.

We advise consumers to obtain references from skilled, trained mental health professionals regarding the benefits, efficacy, and possible side effects of such training prior to making their own decision to purchase the training, or participate.”

My wife attended this before we met, and can confirm that Impact does every single one of these.

BTW, the people who run Impact are no longer members, and have actually been jailed for a time. Failure to pay taxes I believe.

Edited November 8, 2010 by livy111us

[carlimac]

I have family members who, in the past, were into these types of groups BIG time! The particular one that most of them invested in was started by Max Skousen. These family members would still be heavily involved in it if the group hadn't disbanded years ago. It sort of lost steam after Skousen's death, but my mother tried to find a surviving group as recent as last year. (I actually did the search for her, but found nothing.)

This letter sounds like it was written specifically for this particular organization. I know, because I went to the "seminar."

Elphaba

What were they trying to sell? I haven't heard specifically of any of these groups. I was a little confused by the letter, too.

[Elphaba]

What were they trying to sell? I haven't heard specifically of any of these groups. I was a little confused by the letter, too.

I wouldn't say they were trying to sell anything, though the initial seminar, which lasted three days, was around $150. My impression was everyone was very sincere in believing Max Skousen had been inspired with new insights into Mormon doctrine. (I won't say "revelation" because I don't recall that word ever being used. I know my mother considered it such, though.)

Additionally, I believe they were all very sincere in wanting to help everyone who attended the seminars. In fact, I was told one of the leaders stopped doing it because he felt he was having too much influence in people's lives. For example, one woman attended the seminar and then went home and divorced her husband. While it was a very unhappy marriage for her, she used the seminar as the reason to do what she had already wanted to do anyway, and this shook this man up badly.

Once you paid for and attended the initial seminar, you could attend as many subsequent sessions as you wanted with no cost.

I will say there was a lot of hocus pocus going on. I can't remember what it was called, but they did this exercise to connect you with people with whom you had emotional issues--even though that person was not in the room, never had been in the group, and could even have lived 500 miles away.

I've never been one to fall for this stuff, and it really put me off. I wasn't popular in the family because of this.

Someone above mentioned "Impact." My family was into that as well.

Frankly, I'm dying to know what one particular member of my family thinks of this letter.

Elphaba

[livy111us]

I thought this was an interesting article on Impact Training, written by a someone who went through the training. It discusses the price, what exactly happens, and the impact it has on people.

Impact Trainings, Hans Berger And Sally Berger | Rip-off Report #279191

I enrolled in the Impact Trainings several years ago and watched my quality of life decline dramatically until I finally pulled out. All the while my bank account was being drained as I paid for trainings that not only failed to add value but encouraged me to live and act in ways that tied me to Impact while disregarding everything else in my life.

No rational or sane person would choose to be involved with the Impact Trainings if they were able to see what went on behind those doors before having to pay a fee and allow the trainers and staff to slowly condition them over a period of several days. When I finally realized what was going on around me I was forced to choose between continued involvement with the group or severing several close family relationships. Impact's marketing strategy makes it very difficult to leave because every trainee is enrolled by someone close to them and severing contact with the training means (in most cases) that the relationship will be severed as well.

Impact begins initiating trainees into its community in the Quest training. When I attended the Quest training it cost $550. Quest consists of four days of mostly intense and degrading activities that are designed to teach trainees obedience to the trainer. Once that obedience has been established the trainers and staff are able to manipulate the trainees emotions at will. This emotional control is used repeatedly through out the rest of the series to keep people paying for more training and enrolling their family and friends. After several days of degradation and a final day where the Impact trainers begin to espouse the early stages of their religious beliefs, the Quest training ends with a "graduation" and a final activity where all of the Quest trainees are either enrolled into the next stage of the training or publicly chastised for "selling out".

Summit is the second stage and cost $795 at the time that I took the training. Summit begins with a day of degradation where trainees are assigned "alternate names" such as "Daddy's Joy Toy", "Womb for Rent", "Still Nursing", "Pee wee pervert", etc and then required to visualize themselves dying and being placed in coffins because they do not deserve to live. The next 3 days involve building the trainees back up and further creating a strong sense of community inside the center by assigning people to small groups and requiring them to act out embarrassing skits (for example a group of heavy set women may be required to dress as cows, whales or belly dancers). Like Quest, the Summit Training ends with a graduation and hard-sell commitment activity designed to get people to pay for the next level. At this stage in my training there were several trainees who's finances were so tight that they resorted to begging for money from other people in the group.

Lift-Off was the third stage of the training and cost $695 at the time that I was involved. Unlike the first two trainings, which were conducted over a 4 day period, Lift-Off consisted of 4 weekends that were spread over a 13 week period. The four weekends all had different themes, one of which was "enrollment weekend" where trainees went out as groups in an effort to fill seats at the next Quest training. Each Trainee in Lift-Off was assigned a specific staff member that they were required to call 3 times a week. Lift-Off was not as dramatic as the other trainings and as a result there were not as many break downs among the trainees. Lift-Off seemed to solidify much of the conditioning that occurred in Quest and Summit as well as provide a bridge between the first two trainings and the next series.

After Lift-Off, trainees are encouraged to "keep their training alive" by volunteering to work on the staff in future Quest, Summit and Lift-Off trainings. Impact Trainings does not screen their volunteer staff at all. I was aware of several registered sex offenders that were allowed to be leaders over new trainees, one of them even staffed a training for teens. I knew of 4 staff members, in my 2 years with the company, who engaged in sexual relationships with trainees. Despite these egregious actions by staff members, I never saw Impact make any effort to screen their staff members for the protection of the new trainees. Since the Impact community claims to value love and forgiveness above all else, the lack of screening is justified by the "everyone deserves a second chance" philosophy.

The next step for the trainees is to begin the "Trainer in Training" program. Trainer in Training 1 cost $1500 and was the first training specifically designed to influence the trainees' religious beliefs and spirituality. Hans Berger spoke openly in my training of his alleged communications with spirits. He also claimed to have worked in "Intelligence" for the US government. One of the processes in this training involves Hans giving detailed, non-biblical, accounts of the life of Jesus. Later on in the Trainer in Training series Hans claimed to have learned this information and the processes of the Impact Trainings themselves through face to face communicatons with Jesus, Buddha and other "Ascended Masters".

Trainer in Training 2 cost $1800 and further developed the trainees belief that they had the power to create miracles and talk with the deceased. Many trainees at this stage begin to revere Hans Berger as a prophet. The Impact trainers would periodically make statements such as "Hans is not a Prophet" or "Impact Trainings is not a religion" but those statements only served to change the trainees' language as they still continue to build their lives around every word that came out of Hans' mouth.

The Impact Trainings is a manipulative self improvement training that grows into a religious cult where the trainers act like gods among men. I personally heard Hans state on several occasions "I am God". If you are considering attending the Impact Trainings I highly recommend consulting a trained and licensed therapist. In my 2 years of involvement with the training I never saw anyone leave the group in a state of emotional health. Those that stayed continued to pay large amounts of money to the group and spend several weeks each year providing free labor on the volunteer staff.

Former Impacter

Taylorsville, Utah

U.S.A.

[HiJolly]

What were they trying to sell? I haven't heard specifically of any of these groups. I was a little confused by the letter, too.

Another extremely dangerous group along these lines is Landmark Education ("Innovative programs for living an extraordinary life").

It has cost my brother-in-law his home & his professional license. He is still committed to them, after everything. They have completely replaced the Church in his life.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

... Max Skousen had been inspired with new insights into Mormon doctrine. (I won't say "revelation" because I don't recall that word ever being used. I know my mother considered it such, though.)

...

Elphaba

Max was my first cousin. His brother was Cleon Skouson. They have both passed on.

The family was quite distressed over Max's choices, yet we loved him. He was a mystic (as am I) and his insights and revelation came, IMO, from more than one Source. He was a delight to talk to. Cleon was too, until you disagreed with him... <yikes>

HiJolly

[Wingnut]

We got both of these letters in our ward yesterday. During the entire second one (about self-awareness groups), I kept thinking of this: http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/33391-trying-mens-group.html

[Gwen]

our branch has read the first letter, not heard the second one yet. which is kinda sad, that's the fun one. lol

[Canuck Mormon]

Another extremely dangerous group along these lines is Landmark Education ("Innovative programs for living an extraordinary life").

It has cost my brother-in-law his home & his professional license. He is still committed to them, after everything. They have completely replaced the Church in his life.

HiJolly

Been there and done that. I was in training to become a leader for their "Information Session" where they encourage you to sign up that night, otherwise you are just leading the same old boring life. Over the years that I was involved, I imagine I spent close to $10,000 over 5 years including travel costs. My ex-wife is still heavily involved and my son has taken a few courses. Although I have nothing against the people who participate in these programs, I am very sceptical about the good they actually do. I took the courses when I was inactive and my life has been significantly better since I returned to the church than it ever was in these programs.

I wonder how many people actually know that the original program was started by a used car dealer to make his salesmen more effective at selling. Hmmmmmmmmmm..........................

[GADBabaganoosh]

My sister and brother in law went to impact training. She said it was exhilirating. But she only went to one. Those things cost money after all, which should be a red flag in and of itself. The fact that they claim its church endorsed should be red flag 2. It sounds on par with Priest Craft. Not exactly, but somewhat along those lines.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

So, if this is the 3rd (or so) time that a FP letter about "self-awareness groups" has had to be read to the general membership of the church- what is going on that LDS members still continue to feel the need to seek out ways to "find themselves" in such groups?

[Gwen]

So, if this is the 3rd (or so) time that a FP letter about "self-awareness groups" has had to be read to the general membership of the church- what is going on that LDS members still continue to feel the need to seek out ways to "find themselves" in such groups?

naaman comes to mind. if you are asked to repent and do home teaching to find your path that's to easy. get asked to pay hundreds of dollars and stay up all night.... that's faith.

[martybess]

IMy impression was everyone was very sincere in believing Max Skousen had been inspired with new insights into Mormon doctrine. (I won't say "revelation" because I don't recall that word ever being used. I know my mother considered it such, though.)

This is soooooo scary!!! I can honestly say that by the time I got to the bottom of this thread I had a gut wrenched feeling in my gut. BIG WARNINGS!

Think about Jim Jones from the present. What about the past folks like the Gadianton robbers, rameumptom folks, priests of Noah and on and on. How did they start, just like this. No thanks! We have a living Prophet, l love him!