Modesty dilema

[dash77]

Big boobs won't prevent you from seeing the heart of a woman eh....

No -- size is irrelvant, a good Christain man will see behind them whether large or small.

[pam]

No -- size is irrelvant, a good Christain man will see behind them whether large or small.

Wouldn't that mean he is staring directly at them?

Edited August 18, 2011 by pam

[dash77]

Wouldn't that mean he is staring directly at them?

Of course!! :) but not noticing them related to size. That is a heterosexual man will notice breasts, but size, to a good christian man, should be irrelvant.

I am not sure if Suzie was joking or serious, but wouldn't her sentence in post #97 "yeah . . . . men love flat chested women" be quite hurtful for women who is flat that read it.

As a moderator, please keep post 97 -- because I think this is something good to bring out on the table and talk about. But I think it goes back to the study I posted in a previous post about the expereinces of women who have larger breasts -- there is this deep down liking oof them.

[Dravin]

I can honestly say that I have never found myself attracted to a woman's heart.

This doesn't drive you wild?

[MarginOfError]

This doesn't drive you wild?

Oh, so that's what I've been missing all this time I've been staring at her CENSORED

[dash77]

I'm still trying to figure out how a women who is flat might feel about the comments "yeah . . . men love flat chested women" said with sarcasim might feel?

Any thoughts by others how such women might feel?

[MarginOfError]

I'm still trying to figure out how a women who is flat might feel about the comments "yeah . . . men love flat chested women" said with sarcasim might feel?

Any thoughts by others how such women might feel?

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that a woman's response to that question is probably more indicative of her self esteem and self image than it is of her attitude about breast size.

[Suzie]

I'm still trying to figure out how a women who is flat might feel about the comments "yeah . . . men love flat chested women" said with sarcasim might feel?

Any thoughts by others how such women might feel?

Hmmmm I answered this when you sent me a PM about it. I think you read too much into it. I try my best to be respectful of people's feelings, having said that I am not the kind of person who walks or will be walking on egg shells wondering who gets offended and who doesn't based on my posts because with that sense, I won't post at all because there will be always one or two who WILL get offended. You know the saying of Brigham Young...."Who takes offense when no offense is intended..." I didn't mean any harm with such statement and I don't think women will be "hurt" if they read it unless they have other underlined issues. It seems to me you're (with good intentions and all) making a mountain out of a molehill.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Suzie

[FunkyTown]

I'm surprised that this is even an issue.

A 'Good Christian man' can notice boob size, just like a 'Good Christian Woman' can notice things like a nice bum, or abs that could grate cheese.

Being physically attracted to someone isn't bad, and searching for someone you are physically attracted to isn't wrong.

That said, I was reading a newspaper article a couple of days ago where a matchmaker was being interviewed. She said she had a 37 year old mother of three who looked... Like a 37 year old mother of three. She insisted she wouldn't date anyone except a millionaire. The matchmaker sat her down and said "Okay. What are you bringing to the table for the millionaire. We know what he's bringing. What about you?"

Don't be absurd in your limitations.

[Backroads]

I think there have been many helpful posts. But back to the original question -- can others see, or do I make sense, suggesting that perhaps the OP's wife may have learned later in life to like being gazed upon? And can larger breasts contribute to this and can women who are larger up top make a little extra effort to de-emphasize this (not to become ridiculous, though related to modesty).

Why should I work to make my breasts look smaller? Why can't I just buy a good bra that supports me and makes me look nice? I'm DD, that's a fact, and I dress modestly.

[Backroads]

I can honestly say that I have never found myself attracted to a woman's heart.

I'm glad because that would be creepy. Don't be one of those people that love women's hearts so much he collects them in jars in his basement.

[Guest]

STILL talking about boobs?

[FunkyTown]

Why should I work to make my breasts look smaller? Why can't I just buy a good bra that supports me and makes me look nice? I'm DD, that's a fact, and I dress modestly.

You shouldn't have to. Frankly, there's no way of taking a pair of DDs and making them look like Bs unless you're willing to tape them down, which can't be comfortable.

It's not even bad if a guy notices that they're one of your good features. It's only bad form if they start staring and act like they're twelve years old. It's just not all right to comment unless they're your Gay Best Friend.

Most guys know this, though.

[Vort]

Why should I work to make my breasts look smaller?

If I have to, I don't see any reason you should be exempt.

[FunkyTown]

If I have to, I don't see any reason you should be exempt.

And a reference back to MOE's fat joke. Well played. Well. Played.

[dash77]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that a woman's response to that question is probably more indicative of her self esteem and self image than it is of her attitude about breast size.

MOE:

The part I find troubling with the response above, and also related to Suzie’s reply on taking offense, is how quick both of you are shifting the locus of personal responsibility onto others and not accepting personal responsibility for thoughtless and hurtful phrases. Making a statement that men like flat chested women – with sarcasm at its foundation – is hurtful. MOE can try to shift this to women who are flat having self-esteem issues, but the sentence is hurtful and the locus of responsibility should be placed on the sender of the message. Really think of how a 16 year old young woman who is flat might think about the sentence that men do not like flat chesteredd women – how do you think she might feel? Or a 35 year old woman who has been teased and put down her entire life just because she is not “well-endowed” – which means literally was not given a gift of having ample breast size (and in Christianity could mean a gift from God).

We all need to not take offense, but that principle does not give others the freedom to be thoughtless and hurtful. The dictionary definition of respect is to hold something in high or special regard – being respectful means to think of others and change our own behaviors for the good of others.

Suzie:

With what was said above, I want to be respectful to you and not dwell too much on your post #97. You might be right that I might be reading into things too much. However, in my occupation (that I would rather not share) I spend a good amount of time thinking about youth, gender identity and how it relates to physical and mental health. And what I have learned is that although larger breasts have clear disadvantages (e.g., women being sexually objectified, pressure to the lumbar muscles), women with smaller breasts have more negative social consequences mainly because both men and women place so much feminine credibility/worth by breast size. And my argument is quite simply this – if one claim to be a follower of Christ, size should not matter. What should matter is what is behind breasts – the heart of a person. With that said, I am not suggesting we all become slobs and unhealthy, we should all strive to be healthy and in good shape and there is nothing wrong with feeling good about one’s appearance. But related to the context of this thread, women with larger breasts, who might feel the temptation more so to flaunt them should dress modestly (and all women who identify as LDS women should do the same).

[dash77]

Why should I work to make my breasts look smaller? Why can't I just buy a good bra that supports me and makes me look nice? I'm DD, that's a fact, and I dress modestly.

Backroads:

This is a very thoughtful comment -- thank you. Let me think about the words I used in the quotation. I did use the word “de-emphasize” – but I meant it more to mean not to bring attention to, rather than to make breast seem smaller. I think women who have larger breasts need to dress modestly, just like other women. However, I think the extra burden is to take more time and effort to dress modestly – but I do not think such women need to work at making them appear smaller. I think the key is not to emphases them with low cut tops or tight fitting shirts. But a woman who is larger up top should not be shamed or embarrassed, just as women who are smaller should not. With this said, though, as the study I provided outlines, deep down I think women who have larger breasts who have extra temptation to find pleasure in them and pleasure with people looking – and that is why they need to take more time in seeking out modest clothing (and I know that is easy for me to say and more difficult for women who are larger to do).

However, let me think about this a little longer; however, my initial thought is I used a poor word in “de-emphasize.”

[MarginOfError]

MOE:

The part I find troubling with the response above, and also related to Suzie’s reply on taking offense, is how quick both of you are shifting the locus of personal responsibility onto others and not accepting personal responsibility for thoughtless and hurtful phrases. Making a statement that men like flat chested women – with sarcasm at its foundation – is hurtful.

To whom? This here is the thing you do that renders everything you try to say so maddeningly worthless--you want to overgeneralize every comment to the entire world.

There are some women who would take offense to that statement. There are some women that would be hurt by that statement. But whether or not a woman is hurt by the statement is a function of at least a dozen different variables that include the speaker, the listener, the past experience of the listener, and the shared experience of the two.

You suggest we should avoid such comments because the might hurt someone. To guard our language like that would require that we never speak to anyone ever again.

People have to be evaluated in context an within their experiences. I simply will not censor my discussion on a discussion board and avoid saying something relevant to the conversation now for fear that some lurker who isn't participating might be offended. I won't change my language on the assumption that someone might possibly maybe conceivably dig up this thread and three years and be bothered by what I say.

I will alter my language in order to communicate to a person with whom I am having a discussion. That's the point of communication, after all, is to create shared meaning. But I can only create shared meaning with the people who are sharing.

I'll also toss into the conversation the observation that the vast majority of women understand that breast size might catch the attention of a man in passing. But that same vast majority of women understand that lasting and meaningful relationships don't develop because of breast size. In fact, the last study I read indicated that 80% of men are satisfied with their partner's breast size. That means that at bare minimum, 30% of men have partners with smaller than average breast size and they are satisfied with that!

Suzie's comment has broad comedic appeal not because it makes humor about men being attracted to small breasts, but because it makes humor about men being attracted to breasts at all!

MOE can try to shift this to women who are flat having self-esteem issues, but the sentence is hurtful and the locus of responsibility should be placed on the sender of the message.

Rules of communication:

#1 Any misunderstanding of the message is the fault of the receiver. Clearly, the speaker knew what he/she intended to say when he/she spoke, so there is no other option.

#2 Rule #1 does not absolve the speaker of making an honest and full attempt at being understood as easily as possible.

Really think of how a 16 year old young woman who is flat might think about the sentence that men do not like flat chesteredd women – how do you think she might feel? Or a 35 year old woman who has been teased and put down her entire life just because she is not “well-endowed” – which means literally was not given a gift of having ample breast size (and in Christianity could mean a gift from God).

I think if you looked at the etymology of "endow" you'd find that describing large breasts as "well-endowed" is fully appropriate. To endow is to bestow property. You could think of it like real estate. A well endowed woman has more real estate on her chest--which, by the way, is a mathematical fact (based on surface area, volume, mass, and even water displacement)!

We all need to not take offense, but that principle does not give others the freedom to be thoughtless and hurtful. The dictionary definition of respect is to hold something in high or special regard – being respectful means to think of others and change our own behaviors for the good of others.

So why don't you change your behavior for the good of others, dash? Or do you insist that the way you perceive appropriate behavior is the way we should also perceive appropriate behavior.

Granted, that's a pretty flawed argument, but here's the point--we disagree with you that we should change our language to protect people's feelings about breast size. Your claim is that our society is too obsessed with the sexual arousal as power of breasts, and so we should hide them and not talk about them. We disagree. It would be more effective to open dialog about them. They're boobs. Taht's all they are. Masses of fat, glands, and skin that grow on women due to a hormonal reaction that begins in puberty. Big freakin' deal! Yes, our society makes a big deal about breast size and sexualizes them. Big deal! Let's talk about it and help people realize that the feelings that breasts stimulate in men are temporary--AND WE KNOW THAT! AND THAT'S WHY BREAST JOKES ARE FUNNY!

Suzie:

With what was said above, I want to be respectful to you and not dwell too much on your post #97. You might be right that I might be reading into things too much. However, in my occupation (that I would rather not share) I spend a good amount of time thinking about youth, gender identity and how it relates to physical and mental health. And what I have learned is that although larger breasts have clear disadvantages (e.g., women being sexually objectified, pressure to the lumbar muscles), women with smaller breasts have more negative social consequences mainly because both men and women place so much feminine credibility/worth by breast size. And my argument is quite simply this – if one claim to be a follower of Christ, size should not matter. What should matter is what is behind breasts – the heart of a person. With that said, I am not suggesting we all become slobs and unhealthy, we should all strive to be healthy and in good shape and there is nothing wrong with feeling good about one’s appearance. But related to the context of this thread, women with larger breasts, who might feel the temptation more so to flaunt them should dress modestly (and all women who identify as LDS women should do the same).

Again, 80% of men report being satisfied with their partner's breast size. You're creating a problem that isn't actually a problem. I am fully confident that the women you speak of who struggle with confidence related to their breast size have larger problem than their breast size.

Adolescents are an entirely different issue altogether because they haven't yet developed the cognitive capacity to process all the hormonal responses interacting with all of the social pressures. 95% of the time, these girls will grow up and think "how silly I was back then to think that the size of my breasts mattered." The other 5%, I'm sorry to be so insensitive about it, have other problems. If that 5% had larger breasts, they'd still have self-esteem problems.

BOOBS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!

[applepansy]

Backroads:

This is a very thoughtful comment -- thank you. Let me think about the words I used in the quotation. I did use the word “de-emphasize” – but I meant it more to mean not to bring attention to, rather than to make breast seem smaller. I think women who have larger breasts need to dress modestly, just like other women. However, I think the extra burden is to take more time and effort to dress modestly – but I do not think such women need to work at making them appear smaller. I think the key is not to emphases them with low cut tops or tight fitting shirts. But a woman who is larger up top should not be shamed or embarrassed, just as women who are smaller should not. With this said, though, as the study I provided outlines, deep down I think women who have larger breasts who have extra temptation to find pleasure in them and pleasure with people looking – and that is why they need to take more time in seeking out modest clothing (and I know that is easy for me to say and more difficult for women who are larger to do).

However, let me think about this a little longer; however, my initial thought is I used a poor word in “de-emphasize.”

Baloney!

[Dravin]

You suggest we should avoid such comments because the might hurt someone. To guard our language like that would require that we never speak to anyone ever again.

That hurts MoE, that hurts.

[applepansy]

:pMinimizer bras are a torture device designed by men who can't keep their eyes in their heads.

[Backroads]

Backroads:

This is a very thoughtful comment -- thank you. Let me think about the words I used in the quotation. I did use the word “de-emphasize” – but I meant it more to mean not to bring attention to, rather than to make breast seem smaller. I think women who have larger breasts need to dress modestly, just like other women. However, I think the extra burden is to take more time and effort to dress modestly – but I do not think such women need to work at making them appear smaller. I think the key is not to emphases them with low cut tops or tight fitting shirts. But a woman who is larger up top should not be shamed or embarrassed, just as women who are smaller should not. With this said, though, as the study I provided outlines, deep down I think women who have larger breasts who have extra temptation to find pleasure in them and pleasure with people looking – and that is why they need to take more time in seeking out modest clothing (and I know that is easy for me to say and more difficult for women who are larger to do).

However, let me think about this a little longer; however, my initial thought is I used a poor word in “de-emphasize.”

Okay, we all agree that women should dress modestly. I don't think anyone (here, anyways) will argue that. So that point is established.

I do not wear low-cut tops nor do I think I wear any particularly tight shirts. So I don't think I'm emphasizing them. However, I do think it's important to look good. So I do think my upper body looks good most days. Is that emphasizing them? I'm having trouble seeing the de-emphasizing as anything but pretending I don't have them.

The bolded statement...I think that's a hard connection to make. You seem to be saying Big boobs automatically means an inclination toward immodest clothing.

Here's another possibility: Big boobs. A woman isn't completely happy with the size, but deals with it, is happy with other beautiful parts of her body, and dresses modestly. A woman is quite happy with the size and does think they contribute to her beauty. Is that taking pleasure in them? I guess so. But this woman continues to dress modestly because of a host of other reasons.

[dash77]

Okay, we all agree that women should dress modestly. I don't think anyone (here, anyways) will argue that. So that point is established.

I do not wear low-cut tops nor do I think I wear any particularly tight shirts. So I don't think I'm emphasizing them. However, I do think it's important to look good. So I do think my upper body looks good most days. Is that emphasizing them? I'm having trouble seeing the de-emphasizing as anything but pretending I don't have them.

The bolded statement...I think that's a hard connection to make. You seem to be saying Big boobs automatically means an inclination toward immodest clothing.

Here's another possibility: Big boobs. A woman isn't completely happy with the size, but deals with it, is happy with other beautiful parts of her body, and dresses modestly. A woman is quite happy with the size and does think they contribute to her beauty. Is that taking pleasure in them? I guess so. But this woman continues to dress modestly because of a host of other reasons.

Backroads:

In regard to your bolded section of my past quotation – I am trying to say this. As outlined in the study I provided regarding the daily experience of women with larger breasts, there are some women who have larger breasts – and the key word is SOME, not all women – who find pleasure in men gazing on them. I am not saying all women who have large breast are this way. But it seems to me that those women who do, would be more open to temptation to flaunt them so they can find pleasure in knowing that men are gazing upon them.

For example, some years ago in our ward we had young women who had enormous breast and a really thin body. My wife and I were friends with her parents and her mother would make comments such as “I hope her breasts do not get her into trouble one day.” At stake dances, I would notice some young men looking at them, and she seemed to enjoy the attention. To make a long story short, she ended up with have chastity issue and her mom really believed that the extra attention caused temptation for her to enjoy knowing there were men with chastity temptation looking at her. My point is that there are some women who might be larger who will find the male gaze as pleasurable and this can cause a two way problem of a young man with a similar temptation linking up by the bond of their temptations. Slamjet made a very wise comment a few post back that both men and women need to live the law of chasity in their hearts and minds.

Do I make sense, back roads? I am not saying every woman who has large breast has this problem and I am not suggesting that women who are smaller do not have the temptation of the pleasure of the male gaze. But it does seems to me (1) sadly more men find larger breast enticing (and I would argue this is more of a male disease), and (2) some women can have real struggles if they have larger breasts and have a temptation of the pleasure of being gazed upon. Do I make sense?

(and it seems to me in the long run from a broad holistic perceptive, smaller to average size might be best.)

[Guest]

I wear clothes that fit. Not tight, but not really baggy for the most part, either. Maybe because of my chest size you might think I'm wearing tight clothes, but I'm not. I'm just not trying to hide them. If that's not good enough, that's not my issue. I also do my best to not have cleavage, but as was mentioned in another post, sometimes that's not possible. A shirt or swimsuit that would totally cover everything on another woman might show something when I bend over. If I can I'll hold things closed when I bend, but I would hope that at church, especially, no one is trying to see if they can sneak a peak in the first place.

Are we really still talking about boobs?

[dash77]

I wear clothes that fit. Not tight, but not really baggy for the most part, either. Maybe because of my chest size you might think I'm wearing tight clothes, but I'm not. I'm just not trying to hide them. If that's not good enough, that's not my issue. I also do my best to not have cleavage, but as was mentioned in another post, sometimes that's not possible. A shirt or swimsuit that would totally cover everything on another woman might show something when I bend over. If I can I'll hold things closed when I bend, but I would hope that at church, especially, no one is trying to see if they can sneak a peak in the first place.

Are we really still talking about boobs?

Eowyn:

I appreciate your thoughts. I think a couple of things are at play. First, perhaps I need to look deeper into myself and see if I am sending out some mixed messages. Second, perhaps some people are mis- interpreting my thoughts. Third, I think there are some people that dislike my think from this post and others.

With all of that, Eowyn, I think your statement is right on. And if it helps, you sound like my wife. She dresses modestly all off the time, but when she bends down to pick something up at church, sometimes you can see some cleavage and she tries to hld things close when she bends down. I am not suggesting that women who are larger starting dressing is extreme modest ways – but I think women who are larger need to take more time and effort in being selective in their clothing. And holding things close to the chest when bending down is that act of rescpt and extra effor I am refering too.