Outsmart the system - Asking for name to be removed

[EarlJibbs]

:(Okay, so I have someone close and dear to me. We will call her Sister X. She sealed & married to Brother X and has been married for around 40 years now. Brother X decides he is going to cheat. Nothing (according to Brother X) that is considered to be the worst, he claims holding hands, long chats.... for emotional support. Brother X feels that he is getting that from this girl rather than Sister X. Knowing these two, Sister X has been nothing but a loving supporting stay at home wife their entire marrage.

He promisses to change, Doesnt lose his temple reccomend, in fact the only thing that happens is he is released from his calling. To add salt to wounds, the girl Brother X cheated with is in the same ward and they still see eachother. It has been found that they still communicate and Sister X has had enough. She is thinking seriously after trying and trying to make this work of divorcing Brother X. Her dilema, if she doesnt want him anylonger in this life, because of his infidelity and heart breaking decisions, she doesnt want him in the next. She says it very unlikely that she will be able to get her sealing broken and really doesnt want to have it in tact. She tells me she has a way to break it without going through the proper channels. And after only a couple of seconds, I ask if she is really thinking of either 1, being ex communicated or 2, asking for her name to be removed from the church.

Is it really that difficult for her to break the Sealing? I told her that forsaking all of her covenants she has made with the Lord (not him & her) is not smart at all. I think she feels like she is cheating the system somehow, but God cannot be cheated...

[Dravin]

A couple thoughts:

1) A sealing is predicated upon living your covenants. If he's not living his covenants it's not efficacious at least as it pertains to him and her.

2) Removing your name from the records of the Church seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It will be effective but for more than she may be thinking, baptisms is necessary for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom. So she's not just, 'Ha! I won't have to be with him in the Celestial Kingdom!" she's, "Ha! I won't be in the Celestial Kingdom."

Edited September 17, 2012 by Dravin

[EarlJibbs]

A couple thoughts:

1) A sealing is predicated upon living your covenants. If he's not living his covenants it's not efficacious at least as it pertains to him and her.

2) Removing your name from the records of the Church seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It will be effective but for more than she may be thinking, baptisms is necessary for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom. So she's not just, 'Ha! I won't have to be with him in the Celestial Kingdom!" she's, "Ha! I won't be in the Celestial Kingdom."

So true! I told her that Heavenly Father would work that out, but she seems to want the peace (if can even call it that) that he will have no hope of having that sealing valid. And I asked why she would reject everything else she has worked for (including being sealed to her children) for him.

So is it truely almost impossible for her to receive a temple divorce? Only ones I have heard of were for the most heinous of breaking of those covenants by one party or the other.

[Dravin]

My understanding is that unless she's looking to become sealed to someone else she won't be granted a sealing cancellation.

[Vort]

:(Okay, so I have someone close and dear to me. We will call her Sister X. She sealed & married to Brother X and has been married for around 40 years now. Brother X decides he is going to cheat. Nothing (according to Brother X) that is considered to be the worst, he claims holding hands, long chats.... for emotional support. Brother X feels that he is getting that from this girl rather than Sister X. Knowing these two, Sister X has been nothing but a loving supporting stay at home wife their entire marrage.

He promisses to change, Doesnt lose his temple reccomend, in fact the only thing that happens is he is released from his calling. To add salt to wounds, the girl Brother X cheated with is in the same ward and they still see eachother. It has been found that they still communicate and Sister X has had enough. She is thinking seriously after trying and trying to make this work of divorcing Brother X. Her dilema, if she doesnt want him anylonger in this life, because of his infidelity and heart breaking decisions, she doesnt want him in the next. She says it very unlikely that she will be able to get her sealing broken and really doesnt want to have it in tact. She tells me she has a way to break it without going through the proper channels. And after only a couple of seconds, I ask if she is really thinking of either 1, being ex communicated or 2, asking for her name to be removed from the church.

Is it really that difficult for her to break the Sealing? I told her that forsaking all of her covenants she has made with the Lord (not him & her) is not smart at all. I think she feels like she is cheating the system somehow, but God cannot be cheated...

Tell Sister X that her covenant is not with her husband; it is with God. The very idea that someone would be "sealed to" someone else against her will is contrary to the very nature and meaning of a sealing. So her intended action would have none of the beneficial effects she imagines, but lots of bad effects she is ignoring.

[Traveler]

:(Okay, so I have someone close and dear to me. We will call her Sister X. She sealed & married to Brother X and has been married for around 40 years now. Brother X decides he is going to cheat. Nothing (according to Brother X) that is considered to be the worst, he claims holding hands, long chats.... for emotional support. Brother X feels that he is getting that from this girl rather than Sister X. Knowing these two, Sister X has been nothing but a loving supporting stay at home wife their entire marrage.

He promisses to change, Doesnt lose his temple reccomend, in fact the only thing that happens is he is released from his calling. To add salt to wounds, the girl Brother X cheated with is in the same ward and they still see eachother. It has been found that they still communicate and Sister X has had enough. She is thinking seriously after trying and trying to make this work of divorcing Brother X. Her dilema, if she doesnt want him anylonger in this life, because of his infidelity and heart breaking decisions, she doesnt want him in the next. She says it very unlikely that she will be able to get her sealing broken and really doesnt want to have it in tact. She tells me she has a way to break it without going through the proper channels. And after only a couple of seconds, I ask if she is really thinking of either 1, being ex communicated or 2, asking for her name to be removed from the church.

Is it really that difficult for her to break the Sealing? I told her that forsaking all of her covenants she has made with the Lord (not him & her) is not smart at all. I think she feels like she is cheating the system somehow, but God cannot be cheated...

I think there is much more going on here and that you are making a big mistake in getting into the middle of it.

The Traveler

[Backroads]

I do have to wonder at how serious the situation has to be to break off a sealing. My husband's ex demanded a sealing cancellation without any prospects of marriage or mistakes on our mutual husband's part and received it.

As for the nature of the question at hand... well, yes, I suppose having your name removed is one way of making sure the sealing is off. Kind of like using a bulldozer to help you skip a few stones in the pond is one way of doing it.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Backroads

[classylady]

She can always request to have the sealing cancelled. Don't know if it would be granted or not, but why not try?

[pam]

Seriously...to have your name removed from the records? Who is it hurting? Certainly not her husband. It would only hurt her.

[Guest]

I seriously doubt that Heavenly Father will force us to spend Eternity with anyone we don't wish to, sealing or no. In fact I had one bishop preach that very opinion. . . that yes, they picked us and went to the temple with us, but we'd better darn well sure be the kind of spouse that will make them still want us in the next life.

[NeuroTypical]

Something to think about:

Knowing these two, Sister X has been nothing but a loving supporting stay at home wife their entire marrage.

Unless you have been standing there witnessing their private conversations, their intimate moments, everything they do and say and are to each other, then no, you in know way "know these two". You're guessing based on how they appear when you are around to see them. You have no clue who they are to each other.

[Misshalfway]

Seriously...to have your name removed from the records? Who is it hurting? Certainly not her husband. It would only hurt her.

I couldn't possible know what the woman is thinking. But I wonder if this is the only way that makes her feel she has the power to choose about the marriage. Because leaders could very well decline a petition to dissolve the sealing, it might feel like her only recourse to guide the destiny of the marriage. OR it might be a temporary whim of a feeling articulated before she'd thought it through. Just a guess.

[EarlJibbs]

I think there is much more going on here and that you are making a big mistake in getting into the middle of it.

The Traveler

Admittedly, I have left out a lot of details (including how I and my wife are even involved). You still give sound advice. I will continue to discourage her thinking. But I will still leave myself far enough away to allow her to make her own decision. My wife and I are one of her main sources of support.

I could have simply posed my question "is it really that difficult for a woman to receive a temple divorce?" but thought that the illogical thinking of simply walking away from all of her convenants would provide a good sub-topic, which pointing out using a bull-doser to remove a few small rocks was a good one. But in this case, maybe more is less.

[estradling75]

You call that outsmarting the system??? Its like thinking your nose is a bit big but to 'outsmart' those expensive plastic surgeons you self administer a chain saw to your face.

[Guest]

I think an even clearer analogy would be that she's using a bulldozer to take some pebbles out of a pile of diamonds.

Is she working with her bishop? Have the been in therapy?

[RMGuy]

That is not a reason that I would ask for my name to be removed for.

-RM

[Just_A_Guy]

[My wife] Sister Crosby was a very hardworking woman, taking much more responsibility in her home than most women take. Thinking to give the Prophet some light on home management, I said to him, "Brother Joseph, my wife does much more hard work than does your wife."

Brother Joseph replied by telling me that if a man cannot learn in this life to appreciate a wife and do his duty by her, a properly taking care of her, he need not expect to be given one in the hereafter.

His words shut my mouth as tight as a clam. I took them as terrible reproof. After that I tried to do better by the good wife I had and tried to lighten her labors.

Food for thought.

[EarlJibbs]

Something to think about:Unless you have been standing there witnessing their private conversations, their intimate moments, everything they do and say and are to each other, then no, you in know way "know these two". You're guessing based on how they appear when you are around to see them. You have no clue who they are to each other.

I think you are right. Even if 'these two" were my best friends or the very closest of my family, how could I possibly know them enough to judge their situation? I suppose that from what I do know, this has been evolving over how many years but you are absolutely correct, I was not present for any of their private conversations and regardless of what my relationship is.... I would still be clueless unless I was there for the last 40 years.

I will be honest, when I first read your reply, I felt a little angry inside, but who am I to know anything about anyone exept for myself right? Truely thanks for your post. I like sound judgement. Which you have given. I think that advice will help me with my feelings of judgement upon Brother X, which I hate to admit, I had towards him.

[EarlJibbs]

I think an even clearer analogy would be that she's using a bulldozer to take some pebbles out of a pile of diamonds.

Is she working with her bishop? Have the been in therapy?

Brother X will not seek therapy. Even with continued communication with the girl, he feels that it is not needed. However, Sister X is setting up an appointment as she cannot deal with this alone and feels she needs extra support. I told her that although she may find ways to deal with her own feelings in the situation, she will not find an answer to deal with Brother X's problems. That would take both of them.

I have sugegsted meeting with the Bishop, I have not however, heard back on that.

[Traveler]

Admittedly, I have left out a lot of details (including how I and my wife are even involved). You still give sound advice. I will continue to discourage her thinking. But I will still leave myself far enough away to allow her to make her own decision. My wife and I are one of her main sources of support.

I could have simply posed my question "is it really that difficult for a woman to receive a temple divorce?" but thought that the illogical thinking of simply walking away from all of her convenants would provide a good sub-topic, which pointing out using a bull-doser to remove a few small rocks was a good one. But in this case, maybe more is less.

Not too long ago and good friend of mine (husband and wife) ended their temple marriage. I was called upon to help them both at various times. I tried to make it very clear that I was there to help but that I had love for both of them and that I would not get involved in their divorce. They both had many friends that would hear the problems - they could use them to complain.

I told them I would help or listen anytime day or night but the second one spoke one word or criticism of the other that I would leave until the need to speak negatively had passed. I could not help them in their divorce but I helped with many other things. They did divorce but to this day they both still value and respect my friendship. Several other friends - including the bishop thought to counsel me concerning their problems but I told them as well - that I was a friend that was too close to hear the problems and that I would not take sides - regardless of the problem. The bishop has said many time that he appreciated my position.

To this day I still do not know the problem - nor do I care to know. A few times the husband has come to me to tell me it was all his fault and that he was sorry and wants to tell me everything. I just cut him off tell him that I am not the one that needs to hear his apologies if he still thinks there are things to be said that he needs to say those things to someone else. I was their son's scout master and my wife was the young women's president for their daughters. We were just too close, emotional and heart broken concerning the family to be involved.

The Traveler

[pam]

I couldn't possible know what the woman is thinking. But I wonder if this is the only way that makes her feel she has the power to choose about the marriage. Because leaders could very well decline a petition to dissolve the sealing, it might feel like her only recourse to guide the destiny of the marriage. OR it might be a temporary whim of a feeling articulated before she'd thought it through. Just a guess.

Oh I agree. Something she should REALLY think through. I'm with the thought as others are, that Heavenly Father isn't going to force you to spend eternity with someone that you don't want to be with. But to give up membership. It's kind of like biting off your nose to spite your face.

[Guest]

I know that many will say you should mind your own business, but if you know for a fact that 2 members of your ward are having an affair, and thus 2 families are in danger, I think that you should absolutely tell the bishop, Earl.

[Leah]

I know that many will say you should mind your own business, but if you know for a fact that 2 members of your ward are having an affair, and thus 2 families are in danger, I think that you should absolutely tell the bishop, Earl.

There was mention of him NOT losing his temple recommend (which flabbergasts me), but being released from a calling...so I am thinking the bishop knows.

I know everyone is different, but my bishop would have a far stronger reaction than what seems to be the case here. The man's behavior is wildly inappropriate, as is that of the 'other woman'.

[Guest]

Good point. I hope he knows that the other woman is also in his ward.

[MarginOfError]

A couple thoughts:

1) A sealing is predicated upon living your covenants. If he's not living his covenants it's not efficacious at least as it pertains to him and her.

2) Removing your name from the records of the Church seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It will be effective but for more than she may be thinking, baptisms is necessary for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom. So she's not just, 'Ha! I won't have to be with him in the Celestial Kingdom!" she's, "Ha! I won't be in the Celestial Kingdom."

I do have to wonder at how serious the situation has to be to break off a sealing. My husband's ex demanded a sealing cancellation without any prospects of marriage or mistakes on our mutual husband's part and received it.

As for the nature of the question at hand... well, yes, I suppose having your name removed is one way of making sure the sealing is off. Kind of like using a bulldozer to help you skip a few stones in the pond is one way of doing it.

Keep in mind that name removal would be effective at cancelling the sealing as long as she continued not to be a member of the Church. But if she decided to be baptized again and have her temple blessings restored, her sealing would come into effect again.

I think it would be better for her to counsel with her priesthood leaders and learn the true meaning of the sealing covenant and not the analogized-to-marriage meaning that many people hold.