Why did Joseph Smith say this?

[Chrissy3818]

Why did Joseph Smith say this:

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”

I found it in History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Volume 6 (page 408 - 409).

If you don't own it I found a preview on google books. History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints - Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints - Google Books

Please help me understand because this just makes me feel like he's being a little prideful and it makes me really wonder if this is the true church. Why would he say such a thing?

[pam]

The History of the Church was written after Joseph's death. It was pretty common in those days to write as if the person had said them. So they weren't the words of Joseph. They were the words of the person writing a portion of the history.

[NeuroTypical]

Yep - he was getting a little prideful there, one of Joseph's admitted faults. I hope I can live a life where my faults are buried on page 408 of volume 6 of some set of books.

I'm wondering if you could put in words why this quote makes you doubt the truthfulness of the book of Mormon or Joseph Smith's role as prophet. Do you think a prophet is perfect?

[Vort]

Ironic, too, given that Joseph felt betrayed by his own people calling him a coward, which led to his returning to Carthage and certain martyrdom. I think LM's observation is valid, and I also think pam's note is worth remembering. Rewriting journal entries as if they were from Joseph's point of view was a common and accepted writing practice in those days; Joseph may well never have said the words attributed to him.

[Chrissy3818]

s.

I'm wondering if you could put in words why this quote makes you doubt the truthfulness of the book of Mormon or Joseph Smith's role as prophet. Do you think a prophet is perfect?

It make me feel like he thought it was his church and not Gods. Because when he said: "The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” The way I see it is if they run away from him they are really running away from his church and not Gods. But if the LDS left the church wouldn't they be running away from Jesus too? He makes it just seem like its his church.

[Guest]

Are you looking into those books yourself or did you find the reference somewhere else? Who pointed you in their direction?

Edited January 20, 2013 by Eowyn
clarification

[Chrissy3818]

Are you looking into those books yourself or did you find the reference somewhere else? Who pointed you in their direction?

Yes, I am looking at the books myself. I am not sure what pointed my in that direction. it's just what he said.

[skippy740]

Anyone who believes that the Prophet Joseph Smith was a perfect being without faults, hasn't read the Doctrine & Covenants.

One such verse:

D&C 93:41

47 And now, verily I say unto Joseph Smith, Jun.—You have not kept the commandments, and must needs stand rebuked before the Lord;

Here's another hidden in the section heading of D&C 132:

Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

The Prophet has faults. They ALL do.

But do they sway us away from the teachings and gospel of Jesus Christ?

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Why did Joseph Smith say this:

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”

I found it in History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Volume 6 (page 408 - 409).

If you don't own it I found a preview on google books. History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints - Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints - Google Books

Please help me understand because this just makes me feel like he's being a little prideful and it makes me really wonder if this is the true church. Why would he say such a thing?

You also have to look at the context. A lot of the times we a can take a sentence or phrase and ponder on it too much and it just sounds awful by itself.

Also, you should read other sermons by Joseph Smith. You'll find that he is VERY BOLD! He proposes a challenge to the whole world to prove him wrong. He will call upon learned men to refute what he teaches. When he know something, he will say it and is not afraid in the least bit.

The context of this section suggest a similar thing. He talks about how he is persecuted. Right before this he is challenging, with very strong language, the persecutors. He begins to explain why, which is the part you quoted.

To me it sounds like yes it is what he has done, but obvious to him God has helped him. However in the mind of a persecutor they do not think of God. Thus he is presenting the challenge between himself and the persecutors, knowing full well his guide and aid is God.

Here is the challenge in my own words.

I built up this church, and you think you can take me down? This church has been kept together unlike the other mighty apostles and prophets! and you think you will take me down? Forget it, laughable. My people know me and what I do. I am in good people, they are virtuous people. I love it when I face this. I have kept a record these three years. I cannot be accused, for if it does. It will fail!.

Yeah he talks about himself, but judging off what he said I suspect that it is implied that he knew God was behind him, God was doing the work. But he is the one under attack, so the challenge goes between the him and the persecutors.

Does that make sense? Does that help?

Also I agree with Pam, and LM makes a good point to remember that prophets were not perfect. Though in this one I just see the powerful, bold Joseph challenging the world and its wickedness to fight and fail. Just a little weakness in speech and conveying that.

Also Joseph says just before that, "God is in the still small voice." Do you feel the peace?

[pam]

Here is something from Fair:

Joseph Smith/Narcissism/Did Joseph Smith 'boast' of keeping the Church intact - FAIRMormon

[tubaloth]

Like Thirdpersonviewer said, lets take a look at the conext

First this took place in May 1844. There are already people conspiring against Joseph Smith in Carthage.

A three days' conference was held at Dresden, Weakly county, Tennessee. Elder A. O. Smoot was chosen president, and D. P. Raney, secretary. A large congregation assembled, but the proceedings were interrupted by a mob headed by some of the leading men of the county; yet a candidate for elector was appointed by my friends.

So a Mob breaks up the meeting.

Then on Sunday the 26th (not sure if this is April or May, if it is May, Joseph Smith is going to die almost a month later) Joseph Smith gets up to speak.

President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. 2 Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster; I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down—but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.

Thats is a pretty bold statement. But in context I take this to more mean, that whatever the Mobs does its not going to destroy the church. I think he is pointing out not only all that he did to bring the church to this point, but reminding the saints at how many times have the mobs come up to destroy Joseph Smith. He understands that God works in the still small voice. And that is Satan that wants to parade Joseph Smith around with all this false accusations.

Just reading the chapter heading of 2nd Corinthians chapter 11 says

Maintain the simplicity that is in Christ—Satan sends forth false apostles—Paul glories in his sufferings for Christ. 2 Corinthians 11Â*

I think after reading whatever Joseph Smith read from this chapter it would also put this in context.

Edited January 20, 2013 by tubaloth

[Just_A_Guy]

Joseph Smith had been physically tortured. He had been to jail. He had been thrown out of three states with his tail between his legs. His propaganda aside, he knew that the bulk of the Church membership as it existed in Kirtland - to say nothing of all three witnesses and the majority of the eight witnesses - were gone. Smith could be gratingly sure of himself; but the man wasn't delusional. He's going for something else here.

Just reading the chapter heading of 2nd Corinthians chapter 11 says . . .

And the content of the chapter itself has Paul himself boasting of his accomplishments, the better to make a point about foolish boasting. Yet the Christian community is not in a rush to throw Paul under the bus because of his "ego"--because they understand that Paul is doing something very different than what a superficial reading might indicate.

[Guest DeborahC]

Things make more sense when viewed in context.

[Magen_Avot]

The Prophet has faults. They ALL do.

WHAT!!!!

They can't be mere mortals! They just can't be.....

Sorry I made jest, I don't mean that personally to anyone. Knowing things that JS said or did (used out of context, picked apart and misunderstood) should, at least be a reminder that even the best of us are subject to human nature... and within the embrace of a patient, compassionate and forgiving Savior.

I guess what I'm saying is, that it's not important what we 'think' JS said, what's important is the atonement that caused JS to love Jesus Christ enough to accomplish the work he was given to do... even unto death.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Magen_Avot

[Wingnut]

For the record...

Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

D&C 135:3

[roytucker]

Chrissy,

Well, he was kind of correct in his statement, but, yes it sounds a little pridefully spoken. I don't see how that would invalidate his prophetic mission though. It seems Joseph was a flawed person and those flaws are there for inspection. I'm sure current leaders aren't perfect either. They just have better control on what gets published

Roy

[LilyBelle00]

I just read through this post and honestly, I feel like this whole thread just gave my testimony a much needed boost.

I'm not sure why but I just found it kind of ironic and wanted to share. :)

[Chrissy3818]

Thanks guys! You all helped a lot.

[Blackmarch]

I'd just like to point out that every major prophet that has gathered God's people together can virtually say that about the circumstances up to their time. As God's work progresses greater and greater things will be done.

And another thought, don't rule out shock value. Joseph Smith used it occasionally (and brigham young used it a lot).

[mordorbund]

Here is something from Fair:

Joseph Smith/Narcissism/Did Joseph Smith 'boast' of keeping the Church intact - FAIRMormon

How interesting. Gramps has some similar points.

http://www.askgramps.org/a-statement-by-joseph-smith/, specifically:

Now, something else I like to consider is the context. I mentioned 2 Cor 11 earlier, and Joseph used it as a springboard for his sermon. Six times within eight consecutive verses Paul says he’s talking as a fool. He’s trying to express that while he’s about to boast over all his hardships, it’s not really something worthy of boast. In essence he is saying, “you think a little persecution makes you a Christian? Well let me show you a REAL Christian! I’ve had 10 times the persecution you have!!!” It’s all a bit of silliness really, and to ensure that you understand the silliness he even admits that he speaks “not of the Lord”.

Edited January 24, 2013 by mordorbund

[annewandering]

Sometimes I think its a good thing Joseph Smith had faults. If not consider what would have happened. He would have become a challenger to Jesus status because he and Christ would have been the only TWO people ever born who were without sin.

Even it were conceded that he may have had childish sins in his youth we would have made him into much more a person to worship instead of a prophet of God. We do not worship him for good reason. This just makes it easier to stay clear of that problem.