Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Rob, I hope you do not think I am not enjoying this discussion.  I very much enjoy having a discussion and bringing up points I am not sure are considered.  I am doing two things.  One, I am trying to get at the heart of your thinking and two, I am trying to learn something new that I have missed or not considered.  It is not that I intend misunderstanding – but I put forth extreme thoughts and examples to see how you apply them to your paradigm.

Let me put two examples to your paradigm of intelligence and agency being “unpredictable/random”.  The first is Jesus Christ.  Are you saying his mission was unpredictable/random? Or are you saying Jesus Christ was not intelligent and without agency because he was predictable?

The second example is Satan.  Are you saying his work and efforts to destroy the plan of G-d is unpredictable/random – therefore having some possibility of succeeding?  Or are you saying he is not an intelligent being acting with agency?

I submit that good choices are always predictable and that the good and righteous choice is never random - ever.  Likewise, I submit that bad choices are always predictable and that bad and evil choices are never random.  I also submit that the Father would have to know exactly if Jesus would always choose good in order that we have a savior and redeemer.  If Jesus made just one unpredictable/random choice – the plan of salvation could/would fail.  Do you agree?  Does this mean that Jesus was not intelligent and according to your understanding and definition – Jesus coming to earth and being our savior left him without agency and intelligence?

 

The Traveler

I still think we are looking at this through different glasses from each other. 

I am not saying that intelligence is random or unpredictable, especially on important issues like the atonement, etc. I am merely saying that one of the attributes of intellifence and agency is the ability to, at times, to make a decision that doesnt follow any rational process in which thus making it truly unpredictable. Instances like this are things like choosing one toy car over another when both are liked equally, or choosing to put a worm or lure on for fishing when we decide it doednt really matter which we choose. Somehow, we make our minds able to make decisions at times that uses unpredictability as a factor. 

But even deeper than that it says something about agency itself in that we have the ability to choose in a somewhat unpredictable manner when impulses on both sides are pushing or influencing our decision. For instance, why is it that sometimes we get mad at something and another time we may not when the same impulses are affronting us? We can actually have, at that very moment, the power to suppress or give in to it. That "precipice", as I call it, can be unpredictable at times. It is this very fact that leads me to conclude from scripture why God gives prophecy on some things that have two options depending on that precipice of unpredictability. Another analogy would be me going to the ice cream shop and choosing a flavor and toppings. It certainly may be very predictable on quite a lot of that but somewhere in there will come that precipice where I could choose one way or another without any forseen predictability. And, at times, I even amaze and surprise myself and the choice I end up with. What I am saying is that the part about me going to the ice cream shop, buying it, choosing to dine in or take home, how I pay, who I talk too, etc may all be rather perfectly predictable but the other parts about how I make my choice, if I want a surprise, etc, is left to that precipice of choice that could fall a myriad of ways that makes no rational sense from a predictability standpoint. Its part of what makes intelligence and agency both unique and possible.

[Eydis]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

"Seemingly" is the operative word.  Of course there is nothing random about where nuts and bolts end up in an explosion.  Mathematics can even predict where each one will go and of course, we don't believe Mathematics is God.

Now, who ends up getting killed being "deteremined" is a mortal understanding.  God's purposes are beyond mortal understanding.

This is exactly the same question as somebody bearing his testimony on Fast Sunday saying the Spirit inspired him to dawdle over his breakfast so he didn't die in the Twin Towers.  Does that mean that God saved him but not all the other faithfrul Christians who got buried in the rubble?  So, what is your answer to the 9/11 scenario?  Those faithful Christians died because they didn't listen to the Spirit?  They died because the Spirit didn't inspire them to avoid the towers?  God didn't think they need saving?  The guy saying the Spirit inspired him lied?

My answer is - God's purposes are beyond our mortal understanding.  And this is what I've been trying to explain to Rob.  God exists outside of linear time as time is a mortal understanding.  Whether God himself is subject to linear time or not is beyond our understanding and is, therefore, unanswerable.

I agree that there is purpose in these things but I disagree with Traveler saying that it just seems like it is random when it is not (maybe I am misinterpreting what he is saying).  I guess the question is whether God could use random events for His purposes. 

For example, within genetics there are certain traits that can follow a dominant or recessive pattern.  Do you think God then decides, 'I gave that trait to 3 of the children so I better give the recessive trait to the 4th child to maintain the pattern.' Or, does God just let the random pattern of who gets what trait based in the natural occurrence of genetic randomness. I think sometimes the child born blind is not based in any cause and effect but an occurrence related to the random events related to corruption and then used for God's purposes.

[anatess2]

42 minutes ago, Eydis said:

I agree that there is purpose in these things but I disagree with Traveler saying that it just seems like it is random when it is not (maybe I am misinterpreting what he is saying).  I guess the question is whether God could use random events for His purposes. 

For example, within genetics there are certain traits that can follow a dominant or recessive pattern.  Do you think God then decides, 'I gave that trait to 3 of the children so I better give the recessive trait to the 4th child to maintain the pattern.' Or, does God just let the random pattern of who gets what trait based in the natural occurrence of genetic randomness. I think sometimes the child born blind is not based in any cause and effect but an occurrence related to the random events related to corruption and then used for God's purposes.

I'm a programmer/systems engineer.  Random is never random.  It is only random to the point of understanding.  That's what Traveler means.  Chaos Theory is a perfect illustration of this.

Here's another illustration:  A pool player racks 15 balls, hits it with a cue ball and it smashes all over the table.  The cue ball continues rolling and stops at a place where the next ball can be pocketed.  The audience sees it and thinks it's all random and the pool player is just playing the cue ball according to a random chance of where it ended up.  But for a mathematician, it is not random.  A mathematician can actually set off the cue ball on the initial rack for all the pieces to fall at the exact place it is needed and the cue ball to end up exactly where it is to set up the next pocket.  Yes, there are even pool players who thinks it is just all random - you hit a ball it ends up where it ends up and you just react to the random thing that happened.  This is all because the pool player has not yet reached that level of understanding of the mathematics of pool to be able to perfectly manage the table to his exact purposes.  Now, an expert mathematician and pool player starts playing and everything is sinking to the pocket where the pool player wants it.  But for the audience that didn't understand the mathematics of the pool table, everything just seems to carom all over the place at random and it's just by luck that the pool player ended up sinking each ball in its order.  We are in that audience.  We don't understand how it is all happening so it appears it is random.  We are completely incapable of seeing the mathematics behind the pool table.  Now, some people get to be the novice pool player and they have slightly higher understanding of the mathematics and so they try to manage the pool table as far as they understand it but they are not perfect at it so they still get to scratch their heads wondering why that ball didn't end up in the place it is expected.  And then there's the god of the pool table who knows exactly how to cue up the initial shot and line up every single shot so all 15 balls go into the pocket in the exact time he wants it to perfectly every time.  That pool god can tell you when and where the 8-ball is going to end up before he even cues the first shot.

We don't understand the universe the way God understands the universe.  We are limited so it all appears random.  We will never attain that level that we understand why or how the 4th child ended up with the recessive pattern.  Eventually, we will gain that knowledge if we make it into Godhood.  So, until we get to that point of Godhood, we have to be humble and realize our limitations and try not to attach the same limitations to God and pretend that we know what God is subject to.

Edited March 17, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Which was answered by quoted scripture and prophet's words showing that reckoning to be in the point of view of Man's understanding which you ignored, or you responded to saying the prophets are wrong.

No, the scriptures tell us of Gods reckoning from his end to us.

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'm a programmer/systems engineer.  Random is never random.  It is only random to the point of understanding.  That's what Traveler means.  Chaos Theory is a perfect illustration of this.

Here's another illustration:  A pool player racks 15 balls, hits it with a cue ball and it smashes all over the table.  The cue ball continues rolling and stops at a place where the next ball can be pocketed.  The audience sees it and thinks it's all random and the pool player is just playing the cue ball according to a random chance of where it ended up.  But for a mathematician, it is not random.  A mathematician can actually set off the cue ball on the initial rack for all the pieces to fall at the exact place it is needed and the cue ball to end up exactly where it is to set up the next pocket.  Yes, there are even pool players who thinks it is just all random - you hit a ball it ends up where it ends up and you just react to the random thing that happened.  This is all because the pool player does not understand the mathematics of pool.  Now, an expert mathematician and pool player starts playing and everything is sinking to the pocket where the pool player wants it.  But for the audience that didn't understand the mathematics of the pool table, everything just seems to carom all over the place at random and it's just by luck that the pool player ended up sinking each ball in its order.  We are in that audience.  We don't understand how it is all happening so it appears it is random.  We are completely incapable of seeing the mathematics behind the pool table.  Now, some people get to be the novice pool player and they have slightly higher understanding of the mathematics and so they try to manage the pool table as far they understand it but they are not perfect at it.  And then there's the god of the pool table who knows exactly how to cue up the initial shot and line up every single shot so all 15 balls go into the pocket in the exact time he wants it to.

We don't understand the universe the way God understands the universe.  We are limited so it all appears random.  We will never attain that level that we understand why or how the 4th child ended up with the recessive pattern.  Eventually, we will gain that knowledge if we make it into Godhood.  So, until we get to that point of Godhood, we have to be humble and realize our limitations and try not to attach the same limitations to God.

I totally agree that every ball follows a precisely predictable mathematical path- its basic physics workibg within laws. Human reasoning and decision making ability doesnt work within that same framework of laws.

[anatess2]

13 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

No, the scriptures tell us of Gods reckoning from his end to us.

No.  The scriptures was not written by God himself.  The scriptures was written by Man according to God's instruction.  That is specifically done that way for a purpose.  The scriptures is the prophets' understanding of God's revelations in the same way that Jesus taught in parables to simplify spiritual concepts onto the level of His disciple's understanding.  A day is Man's understanding of God's time.  Nothing in scripture goes beyond what Man, in his mortal limitation, can understand.  We must, therefore, take the scripture as a way for us to understand God as is necessary for our salvation and not the entirety of God's existence.  Understanding God's relationship with time is not what the scriptures is for.  Understanding time as part of God's plan for our salvation is what the scriptures is for.

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by anatess2

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I totally agree that every ball follows a precisely predictable mathematical path- its basic physics workibg within laws. Human reasoning and decision making ability doesnt work within that same framework of laws.

Yes, it doesn't.  It follows some other framework of laws that we have no ability to comprehend.  As such it appears random to us but not to God.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Yes, it doesn't.  It follows some other framework of laws that we have no ability to comprehend.  As such it appears random to us but not to God.

Merely conjecture.

[askandanswer]

Last week I listened to an interesting radio program about something called augmented eternity. The basic concept is that if you gather up all the digital information that a person has ever created in their whole life and then, after they have died, run it through an artificial intelligence program, you can produce an avatar that can accurately predict what that now dead person would say and do in any given situation if they were still alive. You can listen to the radio program here http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2017/03/fte_20170312_1030.mp3 and read more about  it here. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/23/artificial-intelligence-digital-immortality-mit-ryerson

It’s a serious idea attracting the attention of series minds, including a professor at MIT. He believes he can develop a marketable product whereby children will still be able to communicate and counsel with their parents avatar long after their parents are dead. Could such a program accurately predict what a person will say and do in a broad range of circumstances? Yes it can. Can it then determine what a person will say and do in a broad range of circumstances? Does the computer’s ability to predict remove our free will? No of course not, it’s just a metal box full of wires and circuits and chips. I mention this to provide at least one example of how foreknowledge and free will can peacefully co-exist with neither impinging on the other.

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Last week I listened to an interesting radio program about something called augmented eternity. The basic concept is that if you gather up all the digital information that a person has ever created in their whole life and then, after they have died, run it through an artificial intelligence program, you can produce an avatar that can accurately predict what that now dead person would say and do in any given situation if they were still alive. You can listen to the radio program here http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2017/03/fte_20170312_1030.mp3 and read more about  it here. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/23/artificial-intelligence-digital-immortality-mit-ryerson

 

It’s a serious idea attracting the attention of series minds, including a professor at MIT. He believes he can develop a marketable product whereby children will still be able to communicate and counsel with their parents avatar long after their parents are dead. Could such a program accurately predict what a person will say and do in a broad range of circumstances? Yes it can. Can it then determine what a person will say and do in a broad range of circumstances? Does the computer’s ability to predict remove our free will? No of course not, it’s just a metal box full of wires and circuits and chips. I mention this to provide at least one example of how foreknowledge and free will can peacefully co-exist with neither impinging on the other.

 

Nice science fiction but pure BS. You cannot reduce human intelligence to an algorithm. And the suggestions from Netflix of what I may like based off of patterns? Almost entirely wrong and it gets very annoying. Netflix, please stop trying to guess what I may like, I would like for you to stop your cheesy reccomendations, you cant guess human intelligence and feelings.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[Traveler]

 

@Rob Osborn and others.

I must admit that I am very concerned with the idea of what and how much of our mortal existence must be known and determined in advance in order for G-d’s universal Plan of Salvation to be guaranteed as well as Prophetic utterances truthful.  Without question, I am sure that there are some elements of man’s mortal existence that must be known and unchangeable for the Plan of Salvation to be viable.   The question is – is there a threshold between what must be known and determined and what man can decide upon and change while a mortal that will keep the Plan of Salvation intact.

The problem as I see it – is that our actions as mortals do not happen in a vacuum and can have far reaching consequences far beyond our individual lives; not just as mortals but in eternity.   Part of my problem has to do with my chosen profession.  I work in automation, robotics and industrial artificial intelligence.   I do not want to go too deep into critical analysis but in the industrial environment every action has an impact.  We have what are called tolerance levels.  In essence a tolerance level defines what must (or what must not) happen to produce the desired and acceptable results.   

Allowing operational performances outside of the tolerance levels will impact the quality and profitability of a manufacturing and distribution facility.   It can mean weather the company running the facility will fail or succeed.  But the problem with tolerance levels is that they can add on to each other.  This means that something that works in one part of a facility and something else that works in another part of the facility suddenly bring about failure when otherwise acceptable tolerance levels are simultaneously reached.  This tolerance adding is classically know or identified as the “butterfly effect”.

SO HERE IS MY PROBLEM WITH AGENCY

If we only have agency to make decisions and choices to act for that which does not matter or have any consequences – What kind of agency is that?  A decision or choice that does not matter – then it does not matter and who cares if we or anyone else has such agency to make those kinds of decisions or choices.  Certainly, Satan would not care.  As every parent knows – any decision or choice that affects or makes a difference for a child – will eventually and inevitability also affect and make a difference with the parents and the rest of the family as well.

We only have agency when the results or consequences matters – my understanding and experience is that if something matters then it must be known and planned for in advance to prevent failure or secure success.  If it cannot be known and planned for in advance – then it does not matter because you do not have any power to prevent it or bring it about.  Success or failure is not within the tolerances your agency and the result is random chance.

I do not believe in random chance.  I believe that to succeed at anything we must make a choice to succeed and I do not believe failure is possible until we make a choice to fail.  If someone does not believe we can choose between success and failure – How can they believe in agency?

 

The Traveler

[Mike]

On 2/27/2013 at 6:29 PM, Traveler said:

As to the question put forward in this thread; there are some very important “things” or elements of G-d’s plan that we must deal with. Most Christians believe as doctrine that each individual man was created from nothing and placed into G-d’s fully predetermined, functioning and operating plan with no choice and no knowledge of what any particular individual is “getting into”. There is no way such a model can preserve individual free will. Unless one is willing to lie to themselves and everyone else about exactly what freewill means, entails and is.

In terms of the question put forward at the beginning of the thread I haven't seen an argument that convinced me that one lacks free will in the realm of an all-knowing God nor that one's possession of free will negates the omniscient characteristic of God. Even if "most Christians" believe that you and I were created from nothing I don't see how that answers the original question in the negative. It seems simple that most Christians' God would be fully capable of granting what those believers believe. If you would like to try again to explain why you assert what you do, I'm open.

[Traveler]

20 minutes ago, Mike said:

In terms of the question put forward at the beginning of the thread I haven't seen an argument that convinced me that one lacks free will in the realm of an all-knowing God nor that one's possession of free will negates the omniscient characteristic of God. Even if "most Christians" believe that you and I were created from nothing I don't see how that answers the original question in the negative. It seems simple that most Christians' God would be fully capable of granting what those believers believe. If you would like to try again to explain why you assert what you do, I'm open.

 

Thanks for your question @Mike

 

The LDS concept is that man exercised agency and free will in the pre-existence to accept G-d’s plan and have a mortal experience.  This doctrine implies that every human person of this earth knew exactly and preciously (to whatever degree necessary) that agency and free will were choices in having a mortal experience and whatever circumstances we are born into or whatever experience to which we are exposed to.

Those of whatever stripe that do not believe in a pre-existence cannot argue anything in this life is chosen by agency or free will especially and including how long we live and when we die.  I do not believe that agency and free will are defined by how we respond to things over which we have no control or choice. 

The proof is that in this life we do not act out of knowledge and choice but rather react based in hope and faith.   How do you think agency and free will can otherwise exist?

 

The Traveler

[Mike]

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The LDS concept is that man exercised agency and free will in the pre-existence to accept G-d’s plan and have a mortal experience.  This doctrine implies that every human person of this earth knew exactly and preciously (to whatever degree necessary) that agency and free will were choices in having a mortal experience and whatever circumstances we are born into or whatever experience to which we are exposed to.

Those of whatever stripe that do not believe in a pre-existence cannot argue anything in this life is chosen by agency or free will especially and including how long we live and when we die.  I do not believe that agency and free will are defined by how we respond to things over which we have no control or choice. 

The proof is that in this life we do not act out of knowledge and choice but rather react based in hope and faith.   How do you think agency and free will can otherwise exist?

Hmmm, it seems to me that talking about the pre-existence merely moves the discussion from the present to the past, and so I don't perceive the use. Whether we had free will a billion years ago or whether we're talking about *today* it's the same isn't it?  And why should we not define free-will by simply saying we have a choice between this and that act? I have no control, for example, over myriad possible events, but I have a choice about how I respond--that is free-will, is it not?  In this way it seems to me that knowledge, hope, and faith are irrelevant similar to the way frosting is irrelevant to whether cupcakes are cake--they merely describe to varying degrees the environments in which we found and find ourselves, but they don't determine whether what we're talking about is or isn't "free-will", as far as I can see.

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Mike

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

@Rob Osborn and others.

I must admit that I am very concerned with the idea of what and how much of our mortal existence must be known and determined in advance in order for G-d’s universal Plan of Salvation to be guaranteed as well as Prophetic utterances truthful.  Without question, I am sure that there are some elements of man’s mortal existence that must be known and unchangeable for the Plan of Salvation to be viable.   The question is – is there a threshold between what must be known and determined and what man can decide upon and change while a mortal that will keep the Plan of Salvation intact.

The problem as I see it – is that our actions as mortals do not happen in a vacuum and can have far reaching consequences far beyond our individual lives; not just as mortals but in eternity.   Part of my problem has to do with my chosen profession.  I work in automation, robotics and industrial artificial intelligence.   I do not want to go too deep into critical analysis but in the industrial environment every action has an impact.  We have what are called tolerance levels.  In essence a tolerance level defines what must (or what must not) happen to produce the desired and acceptable results.   

Allowing operational performances outside of the tolerance levels will impact the quality and profitability of a manufacturing and distribution facility.   It can mean weather the company running the facility will fail or succeed.  But the problem with tolerance levels is that they can add on to each other.  This means that something that works in one part of a facility and something else that works in another part of the facility suddenly bring about failure when otherwise acceptable tolerance levels are simultaneously reached.  This tolerance adding is classically know or identified as the “butterfly effect”.

SO HERE IS MY PROBLEM WITH AGENCY

If we only have agency to make decisions and choices to act for that which does not matter or have any consequences – What kind of agency is that?  A decision or choice that does not matter – then it does not matter and who cares if we or anyone else has such agency to make those kinds of decisions or choices.  Certainly, Satan would not care.  As every parent knows – any decision or choice that affects or makes a difference for a child – will eventually and inevitability also affect and make a difference with the parents and the rest of the family as well.

We only have agency when the results or consequences matters – my understanding and experience is that if something matters then it must be known and planned for in advance to prevent failure or secure success.  If it cannot be known and planned for in advance – then it does not matter because you do not have any power to prevent it or bring it about.  Success or failure is not within the tolerances your agency and the result is random chance.

I do not believe in random chance.  I believe that to succeed at anything we must make a choice to succeed and I do not believe failure is possible until we make a choice to fail.  If someone does not believe we can choose between success and failure – How can they believe in agency?

 

The Traveler

Its not a hard thing to cause events to line up in the future according to prophecy. But it does take actions by God and his angels to make them happen. For instance- the miraculous events leading up to and after Jesus birth that allowed him to be born and safe till he could become the savior.

[Traveler]

nd

17 minutes ago, Mike said:

Hmmm, it seems to me that talking about the pre-existence merely moves the discussion from the present, and so I don't perceive the use. Whether we had free will a billion years ago or whether we're talking about *today* it's the same isn't it?  And why should we not define free-will be simply saying we have a choice between this and that act? I have no control, for example, over myriad possible events, but I have a choice about how I respond--that is free-will, is it not?  In this way it seems to me that knowledge, hope, and faith irrelevant similar to the existence of frosting is irrelevant to whether the cupcake is cake. 

 

If you decide to go for a walk this afternoon and a terrorist or gang member decides to kill you – and you never realize it is coming and have no chance to respond or react – how are the consequences that you experience (death) your choice – expression of free will and agency?  Not only that but you no longer can choose (have free will or agency) to pay any more bills, call your parents and tell they you love them – or even have stake or salad for dinner – All your choices, agency and free will you think you had and were exercising are taking from you before you even knew what happened.  This is why murder is considered such a sin or even the worse sin – because what it is believed to take away (freewill and agency) so much from others and they have no power to even respond.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its not a hard thing to cause events to line up in the future according to prophecy. But it does take actions by God and his angels to make them happen. For instance- the miraculous events leading up to and after Jesus birth that allowed him to be born and safe till he could become the savior.

 

But what choices did Jesus have?  And if he had allowed even the smallest temptation to find access to his heart for even the shortest period - as per your previous insistence that random stuff is necessary for agency- he could not repent and remain the Christ - and then what choice would anyone else have?  My point is that whenever G-d and his angels are forced to make anything happen - agency (by definition) is lost. - Unless we previously exercised our agency to choose what we knew would happen to Christ.  But it seems to me that you are arguing that it is impossible for anyone - including G-d and Christ - to know that Jesus would fulfill his mission and save us all - unless he really did not have agency himself?

 

The Traveler

Edited March 20, 2017 by Traveler

[Mike]

18 minutes ago, Traveler said:

If you decide to go for a walk this afternoon and a terrorist or gang member decides to kill you – and you never realize it is coming and have no chance to respond or react – how are the consequences that you experience (death) your choice – expression of free will and agency?  Not only that but you no longer can choose (have free will or agency) to pay any more bills, call your parents and tell they you love them – or even have stake or salad for dinner – All your choices, agency and free will you think you had and were exercising are taking from you before you even knew what happened.  This is why murder is considered such a sin or even the worse sin – because what it is believed to take away (freewill and agency) so much from others and they have no power to even respond.

I would answer you that the consequences are not an expression of free-will. They aren't supposed to be considered as such. That doesn't change the fact that I have free-will to choose in situations where choice is *possible*, but choice is not possible in all circumstances, that's just a fact of reality. And I would add that murder is considered such a sin for *you* the murderer because you set up the circumstances in which exercise of free-will is not possible. In other words you did what you are not authorized by God to do. The focus belongs upon you and your free-will, not upon me nor my free-will. But in neither case is the definition (what I take it to be anyway) of free-will violated.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I would answer you that the consequences are not an expression of free-will. They aren't supposed to be considered as such. That doesn't change the fact that I have free-will to choose in situations where choice is *possible*, but choice is not possible in all circumstances, that's just a fact of reality. And I would add that murder is considered such a sin for *you* the murderer because you set up the circumstances in which exercise of free-will is not possible. In other words you did what you are not authorized by God to do. The focus belongs upon you and your free-will, not upon me nor my free-will. But in neither case is the definition (what I take it to be anyway) of free-will violated.

It is not that I disagree.  There are things that you and I have the freewill to decide.   The sad reality of mortality is that, like the scenario of the gang member or terrorists demonstrate – the really important things of mortality – you do not have freewill or agency.  Someone or something else decides the majority of stuff.  So much so that many argue that humans have very limited parameters that we control.  It can be argued that if you get to choose – it was not that important.

Seldom do we ever make a choice with full knowledge of all the possibilities.  As I have looked at my own life – I have determined that thinking I have control is mostly an illusion.  Whatever success or failures I have had in this life is so intertwined with the choices of so many others – I cannot think of a single thing that is a result of my choice alone.  In addition, as I view my life (I cannot judge any other life); there is nothing I can say is a result of my choices and effort, completely disconnected form the choices of everybody else.  It even seems that my wife had more to say about me marrying her than I did.  I cannot even choose trivial thing like having eggs for breakfast without someone else choosing to harvest chicken eggs and sell them at the store.   In this life I am 100% dependent on G-d for every breath I take – it is by his choice and at best the illusion of mine that I live and breathe – but it is not by my choice and certainly not by the power of my will alone!.

 

The Traveler

[Mike]

21 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is not that I disagree.  There are things that you and I have the freewill to decide.   The sad reality of mortality is that, like the scenario of the gang member or terrorists demonstrate – the really important things of mortality – you do not have freewill or agency.  Someone or something else decides the majority of stuff.  So much so that many argue that humans have very limited parameters that we control.  It can be argued that if you get to choose – it was not that important.

Seldom do we ever make a choice with full knowledge of all the possibilities.  As I have looked at my own life – I have determined that thinking I have control is mostly an illusion.  Whatever success or failures I have had in this life is so intertwined with the choices of so many others – I cannot think of a single thing that is a result of my choice alone.  In addition, as I view my life (I cannot judge any other life); there is nothing I can say is a result of my choices and effort, completely disconnected form the choices of everybody else.  It even seems that my wife had more to say about me marrying her than I did.  I cannot even choose trivial thing like having eggs for breakfast without someone else choosing to harvest chicken eggs and sell them at the store.   In this life I am 100% dependent on G-d for every breath I take – it is by his choice and at best the illusion of mine that I live and breathe – but it is not by my choice and certainly not by the power of my will alone!.

 And I likewise can relate to what you say here. But even with the illusions and disillusions it's a privilege to be here. And it isn't such a bad thing to be interdependent with others (and even dependent in many aspects, too). As the poem goes, "...with all it's sham, drudgery and broken dreams it is still a beautiful world. ..."

P.S. If we could have breakfast together, I'd let you choose how we cook 'em

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Mike

[Rob Osborn]

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

But what choices did Jesus have?  And if he had allowed even the smallest temptation to find access to his heart for even the shortest period - as per your previous insistence that random stuff is necessary for agency- he could not repent and remain the Christ - and then what choice would anyone else have?  My point is that whenever G-d and his angels are forced to make anything happen - agency (by definition) is lost. - Unless we previously exercised our agency to choose what we knew would happen to Christ.  But it seems to me that you are arguing that it is impossible for anyone - including G-d and Christ - to know that Jesus would fulfill his mission and save us all - unless he really did not have agency himself?

 

The Traveler

The training Jesus had before coming here placed an extremely high confidence in his ability. For it not to happen would be like saying that Lebron James will go scoreless his next ten games he plays in. Randomness manifesting itself in certain situations is one of the attributes of human intelligence. And that doesnt manifest itself for Christ in situations where decisions impact salvation. Even for us, when something matters we use rational decision making to choose.

When God and his angels interact with men, man still has his agency, it just becomes highly more probable that man will be obedient to Gods influence and persuasion at that point.

Have you ever wondered why or how its possible that with all the tens of billions of people to walk the earth that only one grew up into adult form without sin? And that one person was tempted and tried more than all the tens of billions combined! It tells me that Christ was and is so extremely far more advanced than we were before we came here. The odds of Christ failing or choosing evil were so crazy impossible that it was truly a foregone conclusion before Christ came that he would be ovedient. Sure, there was still that very real possibility that Christ could fail, but again, its like saying that Lebron will go scoreless his next ten games. James is good enough even if he had the flu and a sprained ankle and a broken hand to still score at least one point. And so it is with Christ. Heavenly Father raised and trained Christ to be the Savior and put that plan together with such precision and dedication that  realistically there really wasnt much chance Satan could ever succeed at all, even to the point that Satan wouldnt succeed no matter the circumstance.

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

It is not that I disagree.  There are things that you and I have the freewill to decide.   The sad reality of mortality is that, like the scenario of the gang member or terrorists demonstrate – the really important things of mortality – you do not have freewill or agency.  Someone or something else decides the majority of stuff.  So much so that many argue that humans have very limited parameters that we control.  It can be argued that if you get to choose – it was not that important.

Seldom do we ever make a choice with full knowledge of all the possibilities.  As I have looked at my own life – I have determined that thinking I have control is mostly an illusion.  Whatever success or failures I have had in this life is so intertwined with the choices of so many others – I cannot think of a single thing that is a result of my choice alone.  In addition, as I view my life (I cannot judge any other life); there is nothing I can say is a result of my choices and effort, completely disconnected form the choices of everybody else.  It even seems that my wife had more to say about me marrying her than I did.  I cannot even choose trivial thing like having eggs for breakfast without someone else choosing to harvest chicken eggs and sell them at the store.   In this life I am 100% dependent on G-d for every breath I take – it is by his choice and at best the illusion of mine that I live and breathe – but it is not by my choice and certainly not by the power of my will alone!.

 

The Traveler

We all make thousands of choices everyday and those choices can have drastic effects on our own life and other future decisions. Yes, our decisions and others are intertwined, its how we exist, but to say that having control is just an illusion just isnt true. 

[JohnsonJones]

Some other thoughts on this.

Calvinists believe in Pre-destination.  This means, since everything is known in the heavens, everything is predetermined.  The question of the topic seems to be focused on Calvinism.  The question being, if everything is predetermined (or known) is it free agency.

A parallel - I have a child that doesn't like to do many things that I ask of them.  I know their reaction to things in many instances.  When they want to act out, I know that if I offer them a jolly rancher, they will decide to settle down because they trust me and know they'll get a jolly rancher later.  If I tell them they can stay up a little later tonight if they take a nap now, they will settle down and take a nap now.  Does this mean, because I know their reactions when I offer certain things that this child has no free will?  Just because I know what will happen, does not take away any of the free will that child has.  The child still makes the choice.  Just because I know the result does not lessen the fact that this child is the one actually making the choice. 

Mormons do NOT believe in pre-destination.  The LDS church believes in fore-ordination, which is similar, but not exactly the same.  If we take the ideas of knowledge from above, in reference to the child...the child still has free will.  In the LDS scenario, the child COULD one day decide that they do NOT want the jolly rancher, or that they are NOT going to take a nap.

So what problems arise from both types of scenarios?

In pre-destination, detractors complain that if the Lord knows all, and he KNOWS that someone will go to hell because it's been predetermined, does that not make the Lord evil?  The Lord, knowing how we would react, would therefore also be able to utilize his power and knowledge to change the conditions so that this individual would choose the right and go to heaven.  According to Calvin, this is rectified in many ways because the Lord knows each of us from beginning to end.  He knows what our souls truly are like, and thus which of us should go to heaven and who should not from the beginning to the end.  Hence, this knowledge also sanctifies us and the Lord is good, while condemning those who were wicked and evil from the beginning.  There are some who would choose to be bad no matter how much candy they were offered in this life.  The LDS do not believe in pre-destination.

In fore-ordination the question would be, does this mean that an individual could derail the entire plan of salvation.  If we truly are given choice, can the choices of the human race make the entire plan from heaven go off the rails?

The answer, once again, is no.  The answer to this lies in action.  The Lord knows what we are going to do.  He cannot reward or punish us until we actually take that action.  Take our laws and legal system for example.  In regards to justice, is it justice to punish someone for a crime they have not committed?   The answer is no.  In the same light, even if he knows what we will do, we are not rewarded or punished until that choice has been made.  Furthermore, even if we are given choice to say no, the Lord is infinitely more knowledgeable than we are as parents, and most likely realizes when how we will or will not react. 

Which brings us once again, if he knows, how is then fore ordination rather than predestination?  I would say because there are CERTAIN choices which we can make in our life that affect us individually, if not collectively.  In otherwords, the actions we take overall in our lives have been foreseen, but certain things we decide on our own that determine whether we choose the good or the evil in this life, can be made by us and will determine if we go to heaven or the hell.  In catastrophic circumstances, the Lord always has a way for the plan to continue (aka...Cain and Abel, which led to Seth's line of children).  This is made possible because of the Lord's knowledge.

Now, as per my opinion, I would also say that WE are not ignorant.  In the pre-existence I think we decided what we would do in this life.  Overall, we decided where we would be born, in what circumstances, and all other factors.  We HAD CHOICE even before we came here.  In many ways, what we will do, become, and achieve WERE DECIDED by us in the pre-existence.  Because we worked with the Lord, we knew how we would act in many circumstances and thus like clockwork, the world acts in accordance with the great plan that we all came up with in the pre-existence.  The Lord knows it all, as it has been already seen how it will be done with each of us.  Even though we cannot recall what we knew we would do, we already decided on the course of our lives.  However, we cannot be rewarded or punished until we actually TAKE action.  We are awarded according to our actions, not our choice of what we could or would do in a given situation.

Because of this, even if we do not realize it, our lives are already charted out.   Our decisions for the most part are predetermined because we will act in a certain way in a given situation.  HOWEVER...we ARE given a particularly MAJOR choice in this life.  It is just as the scriptures say, this life is not the time to determine whether we will become an engineer or Lawyer (or in my instance, a historian).  It is a time to choose good or evil.  I think this is really the ONLY real decision left, that most of what we will do and see were decided upon us in the pre-existence.  However, the choice of whether we will choose the good or the evil is the real choice that we have in this life (once again, in my opinion).

Even then, the Lord knows our choices and thoughts in the pre-existence, as well as the here and now.  It is this that makes it so the Lord can truly judge us all on a level and balanced basis so even those who do not have the choice to join the church in this life can be judged with justice with those that did in the life hereafter, and if they would have chosen to accept the gospel with all their hearts, be rewarded the same rewards they would have been if given those opportunities.

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Some other thoughts on this.

Calvinists believe in Pre-destination.  This means, since everything is known in the heavens, everything is predetermined.  The question of the topic seems to be focused on Calvinism.  The question being, if everything is predetermined (or known) is it free agency.

A parallel - I have a child that doesn't like to do many things that I ask of them.  I know their reaction to things in many instances.  When they want to act out, I know that if I offer them a jolly rancher, they will decide to settle down because they trust me and know they'll get a jolly rancher later.  If I tell them they can stay up a little later tonight if they take a nap now, they will settle down and take a nap now.  Does this mean, because I know their reactions when I offer certain things that this child has no free will?  Just because I know what will happen, does not take away any of the free will that child has.  The child still makes the choice.  Just because I know the result does not lessen the fact that this child is the one actually making the choice. 

Mormons do NOT believe in pre-destination.  The LDS church believes in fore-ordination, which is similar, but not exactly the same.  If we take the ideas of knowledge from above, in reference to the child...the child still has free will.  In the LDS scenario, the child COULD one day decide that they do NOT want the jolly rancher, or that they are NOT going to take a nap.

So what problems arise from both types of scenarios?

In pre-destination, detractors complain that if the Lord knows all, and he KNOWS that someone will go to hell because it's been predetermined, does that not make the Lord evil?  The Lord, knowing how we would react, would therefore also be able to utilize his power and knowledge to change the conditions so that this individual would choose the right and go to heaven.  According to Calvin, this is rectified in many ways because the Lord knows each of us from beginning to end.  He knows what our souls truly are like, and thus which of us should go to heaven and who should not from the beginning to the end.  Hence, this knowledge also sanctifies us and the Lord is good, while condemning those who were wicked and evil from the beginning.  There are some who would choose to be bad no matter how much candy they were offered in this life.  The LDS do not believe in pre-destination.

In fore-ordination the question would be, does this mean that an individual could derail the entire plan of salvation.  If we truly are given choice, can the choices of the human race make the entire plan from heaven go off the rails?

The answer, once again, is no.  The answer to this lies in action.  The Lord knows what we are going to do.  He cannot reward or punish us until we actually take that action.  Take our laws and legal system for example.  In regards to justice, is it justice to punish someone for a crime they have not committed?   The answer is no.  In the same light, even if he knows what we will do, we are not rewarded or punished until that choice has been made.  Furthermore, even if we are given choice to say no, the Lord is infinitely more knowledgeable than we are as parents, and most likely realizes when how we will or will not react. 

Which brings us once again, if he knows, how is then fore ordination rather than predestination?  I would say because there are CERTAIN choices which we can make in our life that affect us individually, if not collectively.  In otherwords, the actions we take overall in our lives have been foreseen, but certain things we decide on our own that determine whether we choose the good or the evil in this life, can be made by us and will determine if we go to heaven or the hell.  In catastrophic circumstances, the Lord always has a way for the plan to continue (aka...Cain and Abel, which led to Seth's line of children).  This is made possible because of the Lord's knowledge.

Now, as per my opinion, I would also say that WE are not ignorant.  In the pre-existence I think we decided what we would do in this life.  Overall, we decided where we would be born, in what circumstances, and all other factors.  We HAD CHOICE even before we came here.  In many ways, what we will do, become, and achieve WERE DECIDED by us in the pre-existence.  Because we worked with the Lord, we knew how we would act in many circumstances and thus like clockwork, the world acts in accordance with the great plan that we all came up with in the pre-existence.  The Lord knows it all, as it has been already seen how it will be done with each of us.  Even though we cannot recall what we knew we would do, we already decided on the course of our lives.  However, we cannot be rewarded or punished until we actually TAKE action.  We are awarded according to our actions, not our choice of what we could or would do in a given situation.

Because of this, even if we do not realize it, our lives are already charted out.   Our decisions for the most part are predetermined because we will act in a certain way in a given situation.  HOWEVER...we ARE given a particularly MAJOR choice in this life.  It is just as the scriptures say, this life is not the time to determine whether we will become an engineer or Lawyer (or in my instance, a historian).  It is a time to choose good or evil.  I think this is really the ONLY real decision left, that most of what we will do and see were decided upon us in the pre-existence.  However, the choice of whether we will choose the good or the evil is the real choice that we have in this life (once again, in my opinion).

Even then, the Lord knows our choices and thoughts in the pre-existence, as well as the here and now.  It is this that makes it so the Lord can truly judge us all on a level and balanced basis so even those who do not have the choice to join the church in this life can be judged with justice with those that did in the life hereafter, and if they would have chosen to accept the gospel with all their hearts, be rewarded the same rewards they would have been if given those opportunities.

 

A few things to pick on. We can only be judged by what we actually do not what we may have done. The millennium will be that period when all will have the opportunity to live and obey and be judged by their works. The whole purpose we came here is to see if we will be obedient or not and God will thus see if we will obey or not. I feel we make a mistake when we assume that God already knows everything about us and exactly how we will choose. In the case of Satan it is my firm belief that God did not know Lucifer would become Satan in the very beginning. And so it is with king David also, God did not know he would committ an unpardonable sin in the beginning when David was a loyal follower of the Lord. The possibilities always exist but until life plays out and choices are made it cannot be known nor can one be judged by something that they never had the chance to accept or reject.

[Mike]

16 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

We all make thousands of choices everyday and those choices can have drastic effects on our own life and other future decisions. Yes, our decisions and others are intertwined, its how we exist, but to say that having control is just an illusion just isnt true. 

I agree with this. It goes without saying that anyone's life could fill volumes.