Beyond Pants

[sarah331]

Well, I disagree insomuch that I think it sometimes take agitation for people to be willing to ask the right questions, if that makes sense. It's a pattern that's been continuous throughout social history.

I would not be thrilled, even as someone who would love to see ordination for women, if the GA just said "Mercy, mercy!" and changed it. It does seem like something that should be prayerfully decided (which obviously they do with all things).

I do also think there's something to a generational divide in being "ready" for some answers. Sometimes it takes a fresh mind and young heart -- like when Joseph Smith asked for his answers :)

ETA Divide is the wrong word...so is gap. But I do think there's something to a fresh mind and young heart.

Edited April 4, 2013 by sarah331

[mnn727]

the men aren't in a position to elevate their status over their wives because the wives aren't dumb

I liked your post but must take exception to the above.

The Priesthood teaches men that they are not elevated over women, There are very few men in the Church that I know that think they are better/higher than their wives or even their children for that matter - stewardship over their family yes. Better than their family, no way.

Stewardship is something that has been misplaced in our society -- very sad. I am glad the Church recognizes it and teaches it.

[mirkwood]

I always find it interesting when people try to alter doctrine to thier own desires instead of accepting revealed doctrine from the Prophet who is Christ's mouthpiece on earth. If a person believes the LDS Church is true why would they try and change the doctrines. That speaks to me of arrogance and lack of conversion.

[talisyn]

ahhh i see. Well i've neither read nor seen any of the harry potter books or movies. :)

*gasp*

[estradling75]

I think we are dealing with a flaw concept of Equality.

The most common equality mindset can be summed up in the Supreme Court Ruling that "Separate (or Different) Is Not Equal." This seems total reasonable and clear that you can't have something different for different groups of people and say they are equal.

Yet God seems to have a different take. The scriptures are clear that all are alike to God that he is no respecter of persons. And yet we are all different. He didn't create all men to be exactly the same, he didn't create all women to be exactly the same. And he most assuredly didn't create men and women to be the same. Nor did he give us the same roles, nor does he give us the same challenges. Yet promises us that he will treat us all equally. It seems very clear from the scriptures that God can do "Separate (or different) is Equal"

That can be a very hard thing to wrap your head around. It really does require one to have faith in God's ability to go exactly what he says he is going to do.

[mnn727]

I for one feel the Spirit very strongly when I read the Ordain Women site.

But which Spirit?

[sarah331]

I agree with that, Estradling, except there is no female equivalent of priesthood to even *be* separate but equal in terms of authority.

Before you say "motherhood," it's truly "fatherhood" that is equal in to motherhood. I know that deeply, just by watching my husband with our children -- he is as divinely meant to father those children as I am to mother them. We do so in very different ways. He could not carry nor nurse them, just as in time I will not be able to relate to my boys in the way my husband can. In this way it's separate roles united in equal partnership :)

[sarah331]

But which Spirit?

Holy.

[estradling75]

I agree with that, Estradling, except there is no female equivalent of priesthood to even *be* separate but equal in terms of authority.

Before you say "motherhood," it's truly "fatherhood" that is equal in to motherhood. I know that deeply, just by watching my husband with our children -- he is as divinely meant to father those children as I am to mother them. We do so in very different ways. He could not carry nor nurse them, just as in time I will not be able to relate to my boys in the way my husband can. In this way it's separate roles united in equal partnership :)

Perhaps different voice can help explain things

Mormon Scholars Testify » Blog Archive » Valerie Hudson Cassler

[sarah331]

I've read that before. Her views work in the family but less so in the church as a structure, when you consider men have the presiding authority (baptism, confirmation, etc). I admit, though, I've been in wards where this "divide" is less glaringly obvious, where women play as equal a role as they are able in meetings.

As an aside:: I've been wondering lately, with the influx of missionaries and specifically female missionaries, how it works for Sister missionaries on the field. They do the proselytizing work, correct, but cannot baptize. Are they involved in the baptism interview? This is genuine curiosity, not an attack -- it seems like logistically to be a bit more complicated than for Elders? I also know there is more to a mission than this, that there is other service involved.

[MarginOfError]

I always find it interesting when people try to alter doctrine to thier own desires instead of accepting revealed doctrine from the Prophet who is Christ's mouthpiece on earth. If a person believes the LDS Church is true why would they try and change the doctrines. That speaks to me of arrogance and lack of conversion.

People used to say similar things about the priesthood ban from blacks back when it was a doctrine and not a practice. The fact that race and gender are different to many of us here doesn't mean that everyone views them differently.

[selek]

Holy.

Not to put too fine a point on this, "Prove it."

Just because it's something you want to hear doesn't make it "the Holy Spirit".

That particular standard requires a number of much higher hurdles than "warm tinglies".

Bare minimum, it would need to be in keeping and in accordance with the Scriptures and revealed will of God.

So far, you're 0 for 2.

[sarah331]

That's fine -- you don't have to believe me. But I know what I feel when I pray, I know what I've felt when I've asked for confirmation and guidance of my journey, and I know that those are the same I feel when I read those.

[Wingnut]

Not to put too fine a point on this, "Prove it."

Just because it's something you want to hear doesn't make it "the Holy Spirit".

That particular standard requires a number of much higher hurdles than "warm tinglies".

Bare minimum, it would need to be in keeping and in accordance with the Scriptures and revealed will of God.

So far, you're 0 for 2.

Prove what she's feeling? Really? How about you prove that she's not feeling what she says she is?

[pam]

Let's try to keep personal attacks out of this.

[sarah331]

Thanks Wingnut.

[selek]

People used to say similar things about the priesthood ban from blacks back when it was a doctrine and not a practice.

This would be a valid argument EXCEPT for the niggling little detail that the "priesthood" was ALWAYS a temporary thing.

Even Brigham Young- that shining example of vile Mormon racism*- taught quite plainly that the "Ban" would eventually be lifted.

Those agitating for female priests in Mormondom have no such crutch to lean upon.

The fact that race and gender are different to many of us here doesn't mean that everyone views them differently.

No, but too be perfectly blunt- their opinions are irrelevant.

If I choose to give the keys to the family car to my son and not my daughter- it doesn't matter at all if the neighbor approves of the reasons behind my decision.

They're my children, it's my car, and I'm paying for the gas and insurance.

The Priesthood is no different.

It is God's to ordain to whom he will.

No one- niether male nor female, rich or poor, has any right or claim to it except that they meet HIS requirements for it.

It is not ours to demand, let alone to dispense to others simply because they're stomping their feet, holding their breath, or pouting about how unfair it is.

* Haters love to recycle Brigham Young quotes out of context to shock modern sensibilities and earn the sympathy of shrinking violets, but carefully avoid comparing Young to his contemporaries. This is a logical fallacy, mainly one of presentism.

It is, however, a classic tactic of demogogues and charlatans.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[selek]

Prove what she's feeling? Really? How about you prove that she's not feeling what she says she is?

No, Wingnut.

Put down the strawman.

I cheerfully acknowledge her claims of what she's "feeling".

I simply want her to demonstrate her assertion that said "feelings" are coming from the Holy Spirit.

SHE went there, not I.

SHE asserted that her position is ratified by the Spirit of God.

I would like to see some evidence to support that claim.

[kapikui]

I've read that before. Her views work in the family but less so in the church as a structure, when you consider men have the presiding authority (baptism, confirmation, etc). I admit, though, I've been in wards where this "divide" is less glaringly obvious, where women play as equal a role as they are able in meetings.

As an aside:: I've been wondering lately, with the influx of missionaries and specifically female missionaries, how it works for Sister missionaries on the field. They do the proselytizing work, correct, but cannot baptize. Are they involved in the baptism interview? This is genuine curiosity, not an attack -- it seems like logistically to be a bit more complicated than for Elders? I also know there is more to a mission than this, that there is other service involved.

The district leader does the interview, unless it's his investigator in which case the zone leader does the interview.

In general that is the deal about stewardship that you don't seem to be getting. There is really no one that is "higher" only given different responsibilities. In my ward, the deacon's often need help passing the sacrament because there are too few. In that case I've seen a 12 year old Deacon's quorum president PRESIDE over the elder's quorum president as it was the deacon's stewardship.

It isn't about power, it's about responsibility.

You might also want to think about the fact that "where much is given, much is required". The level of accountability for sin goes way up for priesthood holders as well.

[estradling75]

I've read that before. Her views work in the family but less so in the church as a structure, when you consider men have the presiding authority (baptism, confirmation, etc). I admit, though, I've been in wards where this "divide" is less glaringly obvious, where women play as equal a role as they are able in meetings.

That is your opinion but think it is rather narrow in scope. In order to gain the Tree of Life one needs to live the Principles of the gospel and accept it's Ordinances. The scriptures are clear that the ordinances are done by the power of the priesthood. (That is the whole restoration angle of the church)

If the article is true in is understanding of the role of men in bringing everyone to the Tree of Life then the priesthood is necessary for men to fulfill their roles. And giving it to women so they can perform the ordinance blurs the roles. Unless of course you want women to have priesthood but restricted from performing the ordinances of the gospel, but that makes no sense and seems kind of pointless.

[sarah331]

Kapikui the stewardship part makes sense.

Thanks for the discussion, all!

[Leah]

Maybe not the current teachings but I absolutely believe they represent doctrine, as I've read and am learning it.

So you are saying that you understand doctrine better than past and current prophets? Why would anyone want to join a church where they think those who have been called by God have got everything all wrong...even the basics?

[Just_A_Guy]

Well, the BoM in 2 Nephi states all are alike unto God. To me this encompasses everything, really. Plus, Joseph Smith himself said the Relief Society, when it was first founded, would be modeled after the pattern of the Priesthood.

He did, and he even had women officiating in temple ordinances. But there is no record of which I am aware, of Smith's having performed any ritual where he specifically ordained a female as a deacon, teacher, priest, bishop, elder, seventy, high priest, apostle, or patriarch.

Nothing I've read prohibits women from the priesthood, so I don't see why we are prohibited from it. It just seems like something people need to ask in the right way at the right time for it to change.

In the VERY long run, women getting the priesthood is inevitable. Theologically, the idea of the Abrahamic covenant means that eventually a man or a woman becomes a king or a queen, a priest or a priestess. The form that that priesthood will take, of course, remains something of a mystery.

But in the shorter run (i.e. mortality)--it's the Lord's priesthood and He can do what He wants with it; but I think female ordinations in the here-and-now would require a significant re-ordering of the traditional LDS family structure. Right now we sort of have a system where the husband, by virtue of his priesthood, is considered to be more or less at the beck and call of the Church at any given time; the wife's obligations to the Church are not as stringent and so she is more able to pick up the slack on the domestic responsibilities that the husband simply doesn't have time to manage.

The Church admittedly hasn't been asking a lot of its priesthood holders over the past few decades. Given our decidedly apocalyptic worldview of the future (end-times prophecies and whatnot), that could change pretty drastically, pretty quickly (at least, in the mind of those of us who take our prophecies at face value).

**as a caveat, I am still investigating -- have read BoM and am 60% through OT**

Awesome!

People used to say similar things about the priesthood ban from blacks back when it was a doctrine and not a practice. The fact that race and gender are different to many of us here doesn't mean that everyone views them differently.

Perhaps. The great variable, of course, being whether God views them differently.

If statements like the above keep our more progressive members in communion with a church that doesn't reflect their current ideals, then more power to them, I guess. But I fear such smug assurances may lose their charm if the decades roll on and the Church's policy re female ordinations remains unchanged.

[sarah331]

Just a Guy, thank you for a thorough, and judgment free, response. I greatly appreciate it and it actually brings a lot more to light for me.

[carlimac]

Ultimately, it's up to our Heavenly Father. And no , I don't believe that good things only come to us if we ask (plead, beg, whine, throw a hissy fit) or that they won't come to us if we don't and that things will remain ever the same old same old. Our church is dynamic because we have a prophet. And when something needs changing- He lets our prophet know.

One side effect that would be pretty unsettling and add to the pot of criticism from naysayers about our religion is that if, in-fact, the priesthood were given to women any time in the near future, it would be chalked not up to the will of our Father in Heaven, not to direct inspiration and direction to the prophet from God, but to the leaders of the church caving to social pressure. That would destroy more testimonies and cause more damage than anything positive to come from it. That's one reason why I don't think it will happen. I think there are too many (women especially, but men also) in the church and ousiders who aren't ready for it. Just my opinion.

I simply have a hard time believing that the motivation for women wanting the priesthood is totally devoid of pride. I can imagine a newfound power given to women without adequate preparation and humbling could go to heads almost more rapidly than with men. Women tend to compare themselves to other women and "strutt their stuff" more than men do. I can see it causing a wedge rather than unifying and sanctifying women. And if the purpose of desiring the priesthood is truly to bless others or to unify the women, there are already more than enough opportunities within the church to do that. If the desire is to be able to lead the men...one needs to ask themselves "WHY? Why do I feel this compulsion? Is this really what God would have me focusing on? What else can I do in the Kingdom to bring about His righteousness in the mean time?"

Edited April 4, 2013 by carlimac