Woman Praying in Conferance

[Drpepper]

I noticed a Facebook movement regarding women praying in general conf.

Personally I've never thought to much about it but I guess this must be an issue for some.

They could have one of the primary children pray for all I care. I'm just there to listen to the messages. It was nice to hear a sister give the closing prayer though.

[Maureen]

You're late to the party Drpepper. This was hashed out on a previous thread before GC even began. I'm glad two women offered prayer. It's historical even though some people don't find historical things important.

M.

[Leah]

I'ts a little puzzling to me that this has any importance for non-LDS. Except, of course, for those who have an axe to grind against the church.

[RipplecutBuddha]

What is disturbing to me, and again has already been discussed previously....

1. This has always been a policy matter, not doctrinal, and not even an official policy matter at that. It just simply didn't happen before. As such it should have had zero impact on members' testimonies. Observing, then, the comments from self-proclaimed active members that allowed themselves to get worked up into a dither over it illustrates, to me, people that miss the forest for the trees they want to see.

2. That someone would use this in an attempt to move the Church according to their will, even in an inconsequential social manner such as this is, speaks to the evil present in the world.

3.If you're a member, it shouldn't really matter because doctrinally, whomever is chosen to give prayers has no deep eternal consequence.

4.If you're a non-member, nothing the Church does at all has any consequence upon you whatsoever.

No matter what, it is simply a non-issue molehill made out to be a mountain....There are far more important things for us to focus our spiritual attention upon, such as strengthening our families, just for one essential example....

Edited April 8, 2013 by RipplecutBuddha

[applepansy]

You're late to the party Drpepper. This was hashed out on a previous thread before GC even began. I'm glad two women offered prayer. It's historical even though some people don't find historical things important.

M.

Its not that historical things aren't important. Women praying in Conference isn't the big issue for most members of the church as it is for a few who are already upset about other things, or for those who want to get people upset at the church. There is an agenda.

If the fact this is the first time women have prayed in Conference hadn't been brought up before, I wouldn't have noticed. As it was I almost forgot and had to remind myself that it was suppose to be a Big Historical Moment. Eh, not so much for me.

[Maureen]

I'ts a little puzzling to me that this has any importance for non-LDS. Except, of course, for those who have an axe to grind against the church.

Really? Why, because LDS women and non-LDS women are made differently? We can't support each other because that somehow means that non-LDS are against the church. Leah, do you have any non-LDS friends? And if you do, when you are happy for them, does that make you a bad person?

M.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Maureen

[prisonchaplain]

As I mentioned would probably happen (in that other thread), the Church's leadership is indeed saying the decision to include a woman leading prayer was made months before the movement started to agitate for this. Critics are probably doubtful, some progressives in the church may be led to wonder, and most members are probably saying, "See? Trust God's appointed leaders, and let things happen in Heavenly Father's timing."

[Maureen]

Its not that historical things aren't important. Women praying in Conference isn't the big issue for most members of the church as it is for a few who are already upset about other things, or for those who want to get people upset at the church. There is an agenda....

I doubt very much that the women who promoted "Let Women Pray" want to get people upset at the Church. In fact, due to the outcome, I would think that many would be just the opposite of upset, they would be quite happy and proud of their leaders.

M.

[Maureen]

As I mentioned would probably happen (in that other thread), the Church's leadership is indeed saying the decision to include a woman leading prayer was made months before the movement started to agitate for this. Critics are probably doubtful, some progressives in the church may be led to wonder, and most members are probably saying, "See? Trust God's appointed leaders, and let things happen in Heavenly Father's timing."

And I would think that it shows how in-sync leaders and members actually are.

M.

[Maureen]

...4.If you're a non-member, nothing the Church does at all has any consequence upon you whatsoever...

At all? Then that must mean you think missionary work and any humanitarian service is a waste of time.

M.

[carlimac]

I doubt very much that the women who promoted "Let Women Pray" want to get people upset at the Church. In fact, due to the outcome, I would think that many would be just the opposite of upset, they would be quite happy and proud of their leaders.

M.

Did you happen to read Feminist Mormon Housewives blog that went on during Conference. I glanced at it last night. The prayers were all the rage and there were definitely women (and men) with an axe to grind complaining and criticizing our leaders AS THEY WERE SPEAKING! I don't know if they are exactly campaigning to get people upset at the Church but they are definietly seeking for others to sympathize with their complaints and criticisms. It's a horrible website with sadly misguided individuals.

[pam]

The first prayer given by a woman I thought.."okay the change is made." When the 2nd one prayed it never even crossed my mind that it was actually a female praying.

[selek]

It's historical even though some people don't find historical things important.

I was talking about this with my once-and-future bride on Saturday, and she pointed out something which I feel has been overlooked in this discussion.

Namely, the blatant sexism and historical revisionism of those who think a woman offering the prayer is a big deal.

To whit: while the prayers are the ceremonial opening and endcaps to each Conference session, "prayer" is open to every Latter-day Saint (and every non-LDS with any sense) every moment of every day.

The real privilege and "power", so to speak, is to address the Saints, to teach, to exhort, and to guide.

That- not in the brief opening and closing prayers- is where the opportunity for leadership and influence within the Church are to be found.

It is in the talks, not the prayer, where a tiny minority are given the chance to shape the hearts, minds, hopes, and aspirations of the Saints.

And women have been addressing the Church at General Conference since the very beginning.

Rather than acknowledging that opportunity and influence, the agitators have chosen to paint women as helpless victims of the patriarchy, wilting violets kept down by (almost literally) "the Man", and who can accomplish nothing without the help of their "mightier" sisters to show them the shining path.

The notion is in itself sexist, as it demeans the women of Zion simply for their gender. Latter-day Saint men are painted as heartless oppressors, Latter-day Saint women as helpless damsels in need of rescue.

In this instance, it is not the patriarchy- nor even the Latter-day Saints themselves who are trading in bigoted stereotypes, but the would-be rescuers.

Hypocrites!

The women of the LDS Church were among the first in the country to be granted the right to vote (until the government of Babylon took it away "for their own good"). The voices of the women in Zion have always been heard in our counsels, and they have always made their will manifest.

As daughters in Zion, LDS women are proud, capable, vocal, and respected.

They have no need of outside "protectors" to "champion" their cause or hold their hands, or to make sure they look both ways before crossing the street.

The women of Zion are not children to be led, coddled, or exploited.

They are daughters of the Most High God, heirs to his kingdom- not sheep to be led by the siren song of Babylon.

So, while all of the agitators and arksteadiers are bleating gleefully and high-fiving one another over having snatched a cracker from the table, they are missing out on the great banquet spread before them on that very same table.

Seeing their antics, one must either laugh or weep at their short-sightedness.

Edited April 8, 2013 by selek

[Suzie]

Maureen, I apologize in behalf of any LDS member who make remarks that can be perceived as unfriendly towards our wonderful non-members friends. We know better but we are trying. Unfortunately, a lot of people read and watch too many persecution and conspiracy theories.

[Traveler]

Women praying is a good thing. Women praying for the world at conference is a good thing. My father taught me to do good things and to support good things and not to ever worry about who gets the credit.

The Traveler

[beefche]

Maureen, I apologize in behalf of any LDS member who make remarks that can be perceived as unfriendly towards our wonderful non-members friends. We know better but we are trying. Unfortunately, a lot of people read and watch too many persecution and conspiracy theories.

Yes, and for any LDS who may not understand why non-LDS find this important needs love too instead of assuming they are judging others as bad people.

[Suzie]

Yes, and for any LDS who may not understand why non-LDS find this important needs love too instead of assuming they are judging others as bad people.

Everyone needs love beefche.

[applepansy]

I doubt very much that the women who promoted "Let Women Pray" want to get people upset at the Church. In fact, due to the outcome, I would think that many would be just the opposite of upset, they would be quite happy and proud of their leaders.

M.

I don't doubt it for a minute. People (women in this case) who publically criticize the leaders of the church or any other organization for that matter, usually do so because they are upset and want others to be upset too.

[selek]

As I mentioned would probably happen (in that other thread), the Church's leadership is indeed saying the decision to include a woman leading prayer was made months before the movement started to agitate for this. Critics are probably doubtful, some progressives in the church may be led to wonder, and most members are probably saying, "See? Trust God's appointed leaders, and let things happen in Heavenly Father's timing."

To be blunt, I was a little skeptical of that statement until I recalled that PeggyFletcherStack's column- the Molotov cocktail that started this little tempest in a teapot- reported exactly that.

The original article was a minor and bitter triumphal announcing that the decision had already been made, even before the coyote chorus got their throats up to full hue and cry.

[estradling75]

Lets examine the repercussion of how this went down. Because once again the opposition wasn't to women praying it was to the methods being used. So lets examine what could have been.

Lets say for a moment their was no public movement. To those with no concern about the issue the 'historic event' would have passed by unnoticed or barely noticed. A non-event. To those brothers and sisters who were struggling with such gender issues in the church. Who raised their concerns in private prayer to God and in private meeting with their leaders, this would be profound event. Proof that God and his chosen Leaders hear them and respond.

Had that been the way it happened it would have been an undiluted, pure, faith building event for those that needed it on this issue.

Unfortunately now it is sullied. Was it God guiding his church or was it the various groups publicizing their complaints? Were the leaders inspired from God or was it a PR move? Opening for seeds of doubt has been given. Its to early to tell what the harvest of that planting will be, but even one will make it very bitter indeed.

Edited April 8, 2013 by estradling75

[Leah]

Really? Why, because LDS women and non-LDS women are made differently? We can't support each other because that somehow means that non-LDS are against the church. Leah, do you have any non-LDS friends? And if you do, when you are happy for them, does that make you a bad person?

M.

I have lots of non-LDS friends. Why wouldn't I?

I have nothing against supporting friends, whether they be of the same faith or not. However, those non-LDs women who support those women who are are trying to tell God how to run his church are showing their ignorance of how the church actually functions. Then - again - there are those with an axe to grind against the church. It's baffling enough when those that have left the church can't let go and feel the compulsion to change something they have left behind, it's even stranger when those who were never LDS feel the need to tell the church - and God - how to run things.

[carlimac]

The comments on the SL Trib website about the exultation of women over this were just awful. Women of the Church and the Church itself were bashed and made fun of. This didn't do much to raise the reputation of women to folks outside of the church. They just think we're all mindless idiots to get so excited about being able to pray in public. Not great PR. I think the 1600 letter event backfired in this way. Made LDS women look more foolish.

Edited April 8, 2013 by carlimac

[selek]

The comments on the SL Trib website about the exultation of women over this were just awful. Women of the Church and the Church itself were bashed and made fun of. This didn't do much to raise the reputation of women to folks outside of the church. They just think we're all fools to get so excited about being able to pray in public. Not great PR. I think the 1600 letter even backfired in this way.

Indeed.

As stated earlier, it is our "friends" the agitators who are trading in sexist stereotypes, not the faithful.

[LittleWyvern]

The talk President Holland gave yesterday has some advice I think is applicable here. I offer these without comment (for obvious reasons), but with a hope that they will have a calming effect on the discussion.

I must also note that this is not the official transcript, as it has not been released yet. I owe this transcript to this site.

Brothers and sisters, this is a divine work in process with the manifestation and blessings of it abounding in every direction, so don’t hyperventilate if from time to time issues arise that need to be examined, understood, and resolved. They do and they will. Be kind regarding human frailty–your own as well as that of those who serve with you in this Church led by volunteer, mortal men and women. …Imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with since time began. That must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it. So should we.

When doubt or difficulty come, do not be afraid to ask for help. If we want it as humbly and honestly as this father did, we can get it.

[Maureen]

...Unfortunately now it is sullied. Was it God guiding his church or was it the various groups publicizing their complaints? We the leaders inspired from God or was it a PR move? Opening for seeds of doubt has been given. Its to early to tell what the harvest of planting will be, but even one will make it very bitter indeed.

You must not have faith in your own leadership to trust that they were the ones that made the decision. You think your own leadership is so weak that they caved into “various groups publicizing their complaints.” If the spokesman for the LDS church was correct that the decision was made before the campaign started, then you should be happy that there is such unity and accord between leadership and members. Or are you just upset because these members happened to be women? Women who were confident in the love of their leaders for them, they were able to ask with thoughtfulness if something as simple as prayer could be offered by a woman. It seems so strange that something as wonderful as prayer can be looked upon as something bitter. Maybe it’s just perception, those that perceive the campaign as wrong, see the outcome also as wrong. What a shame. Your leaders made the choice to ask two women to pray. It might not seem like a big deal, but it seems the bigger deal is how some of the members are responding to their leaders’ decision. I would think if you didn’t like the outcome, then you may be the ones who aren’t sustaining your leaders.

M.