Evangelical website recognizes LDS as being Christian in Foundation


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I'm posting this as an interesting discussion point. The site has no forums. The couple who run it say that they prayed and separately received revelation from God that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christian in its foundation. They still have important doctrinal disagreements. However, they conclude that the church is essentially Christian. They include links to the official church website, cite books like the one I recommend (How Wide the Divide) and call upon evangelicals to be much kinder. They also encourage LDS to recognize that other Christian churches contain much truth (which most here have said to me). Take a look and see if content gives much room for hope in our interfaith relations.

Evidence that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Church or LDS) has a Christian Foundation - Evangelicals and Mormons for Jesus

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I was especially intrigued by the couple's statements that each of them separately had been praying, and believed they received a revelation from God about the Christian-ness of the LDS faith. This sounds quite similar to the challenge missionaries usually give, and fits well with the couple's Charismatic faith.

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I think the key statement from the article is this:

"It is also because all their false teachings concern nonessential issues. Nonessentials are principles that may be important for spiritual growth but on which someone may be in error without losing their status as a forgiven, born-again, blood-bought, heaven-bound child of God."

IMO, it seems that a lot of the debate around "are Mormons Christians" hinges on exactly what characteristics/beliefs are "essential" to be a Christian. Many, like this group, will accept anyone that "encourage people to make Jesus Christ their personal Lord and Savior." Others seem to take a narrower view of what constitutes "Christian." For example, it often seems that many want the concept of "sola scriptura" or the concept of "Sola Fide" to be defining characteristics of "Christian." It is nice in many ways to see some on "the other side of the fence" who want to use a broad enough definition of "Christian" to allow us "Mormons" to fit in.

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"Faith alone" "Scripture alone"...these were doctrines that split us from Catholics. Yet, today, many, if not most, Protestants (including evangelicals) consider Catholics to be Christians--though with serious errors. What pushes LDS over the line for us? For some it's the Trinity. For many, I would guess it is the conviction that Joseph Smith was not who he said he was, and that he led a congregation that now numbers close to 14 million to believe him.

For me the question...the big question...not just for LDS, but for any group we might consider heterodox is: How wrong can one be and still be okay with God? This question was asked of me about six years ago--on this site. I still do not have a definitive answer.

So, there is a part of me that appreciates the efforts of Evangelicals and Mormons for Jesus. However, for evangelicals to embrace its message we'd have to pray the Moroni Prayer (I think I named that right), and get the answer they got. My guess is that idea would sit awkwardly with most LDS (who would expect us to get the answer "It's True, all true!" It sits a little awkward with me, because, while the site correctly encourages us to be more loving to those we disagree with, it seems to have God saying definitively and prophetically that he's okay with really sloppy theology (remember they say LDS teachings are seriously wrong--just not fatally so).

So, my own view is that the site is nice. The message can be appreciated on some levels. However--and I sense several here feel this--the bottom line message seems to "fanatical fence-sitting."

Edited by prisonchaplain
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PC: Here's how I see the "Are Mormon's Christian?" debate. It started years ago when I found myself getting rather irritated by the talks/articles/discussion by GA's and other LDS trying to convince the world that we are Christian. In many ways, I began to think we sounded kind of like that guy who, year after year, submits an application to become a member of an exclusive country club. And, year after year, the membership board considers his application and rejects. And, every time his application is rejected, he tells anyone who will listen why the board was wrong and why he should be admitted into the club.

The thing that I really liked about the article in the OP is that it is kind of like a glimpse into that membership board meeting. I found it gratifying to think that the decision to "reject" our Christian membership may not be unanimous - that there may be people and groups within this club that would be willing to welcome Mormons into the "Christian" club.

Note that, in my mind, this question is very different from "Does God accept and/or approve of the LDS faith/belief system?" If He does, being labeled "Christian" doesn't really do anything more to make us acceptable to God.

I expect that somewhere in the interplay between these two points of view is something like the question you're asking: " How wrong can one be and still be okay with God?"

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

I think Mormons are less upset about not being admitted into the Christian club (after all, we don't mind if you don't accept our baptisms, and would be a bit upset if you did, in fact.) and we certainly don't accept other's baptisms.

But the claim of not being Christian implies a disbelief in the divinity of Christ. That's where Mormons get their feathers ruffled. Christ is center to the church, and that is the emphasis on trying to correct those who claim we are not Christian.

Recently I saw an article giving an "expose" of Mormon beliefs, and the title was "The Church of the Latter Day Saints." Despite being corrected ad-nauseum in the comments, the article was not changed (along with some peppered vitriol from other posters). Some people are so adamant at taking Christ out of Mormonism they cannot even allow themselves to use the correct name of the church.

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In the comparison, they quote this:

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets [of the LDS], concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, quoted in Spencer J. Condie, “The Fall and Infinite Atonement,” Ensign, Jan. 1996, 22)

But, I always read that to mean that the Apostles and Prophets of old not LDS modern apostles and prophets.

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But the claim of not being Christian implies a disbelief in the divinity of Christ. That's where Mormons get their feathers ruffled. Christ is center to the church, and that is the emphasis on trying to correct those who claim we are not Christian.

If belief in the divinity of Christ is the standard--if there is indeed a doctrine that clearly drives some groups outside the Chrstian arena, then we'd have to defend that doctrine--why it gets to be the deal breaker.

Groups that consider themselves Christian, but which deny that Jesus is God...

Jehovah's Witnesses

Unitarian/Universalists

Christian Scientists

Unificationists

Christadelphians

Counter-cultists have used the Trinity as the line-in-the-sand for generations. Why not that one? And if not, why would the deity of Christ rise to the level of being a definitive teaching?

BTW, this discussion gets at the heart of "who is a Christian?" I don't have final answers to these questions, so am very interested in yours.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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If belief in the divinity of Christ is the standard--if there is indeed a doctrine that clearly drives some groups outside the Chrstian arena, then we'd have to defend that doctrine--why it gets to be the deal breaker.

Groups that consider themselves Christian, but which deny that Jesus is God...

Jehovah's Witnesses

Unitarian/Universalists

Christian Scientists

Unificationists

Christadelphians

Counter-cultists have used the Trinity as the line-in-the-sand for generations. Why not that one? And if not, why would the deity of Christ rise to the level of being a definitive teaching?

BTW, this discussion gets at the heart of "who is a Christian?" I don't have answers to these questions, so am very interested in yours.

Ah,, I see how you have a conundrum. Is it enough to believe that Christ's teachings are good? Must you believe in Christ for salvation? In other words, to believe he was good is not good enough? Mormons take it a step further, although it's debatable as to what salvation means, but Mormons believe one must covenant through baptism to achieve Celestial glory.

interestingly enough, Mormon's view of the afterlife allows all three to be Christian, but their salvation varies in the three degrees of Glory.

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I'd argue that believing Christ's teachings are good is not enough. Further, to be saved by him would imply knowing him? Yet, who has achieved 100% on their knowledge of God test? So, at what point of error do we say one has missed it. They've ignored the Holy Spirit. They don't really believe in Jesus as He is.

You've suggested the lowest heavenly realm has a low bar indeed, and that perhaps the 2nd requires more, but that the third--the highest, has a truly high bar indeed--both in knowledge and commitment. Of course, even within that highest realm, there is the matter of exaltation--a 'golden ring' in this analogy.

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I somewhat agree on the merits of salvation. Believing in Christ's teachings and living a good life is equivalent to believing in a moral compass without the need for faith in Christ. But within our temporal existence, I would still call such a person a Christian if they chose to identify as such. Certainly Jehovah's witnesses believe in Christ more than just a great moral teacher, even if their interpretation of his divine nature is different than traditional Christianity.

As for exaltation, it is about making additional covenants with God. The Celestial Kingdom and the realms within it are achieved only through covenant. Of course, the first principle of the Gospel is faith in Jesus Christ, so covenants made without faith in Christ gain you nothing.

Edited by bytebear
Sorry, I keep editing my thoughts!
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I am amused at the direction this discussion is going and will now offer some of my perspective.

If belief in the divinity of Christ is the standard--if there is indeed a doctrine that clearly drives some groups outside the Chrstian arena, then we'd have to defend that doctrine--why it gets to be the deal breaker.

I particularly find it interesting to attempt to define christianity doctrinally... but even then the debate kicks in about what is doctrinal. Any way on to some of my thoughts.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

First of all simply believing in God is not enough to differentiate between a disciple of Christ and a devil. So something surpassing simple belief appears to be in order.

What might this something be?

It is one thing to believe that Christ lived on the earth, and another all together to believe that He still lives. Yet taking this farther it is still different to believe that He has power to save.

Of course a fundamental doctrine I believe all Christians will agree with is that we are saved by grace through faith (ephesians 2:8). But as we just learned in james faith alone does not separate us from the devils, at least not a basic belief in God. Of course from here we can enter into the faith and works conundrum... which I don't understand why it is so hard to accept works for many so called Christians when there is such an abundance of support for the practice.

And thus we end up with doctrinal differences that could put a wedge between religious sects. Loosely I think Christianity still can be defined as a system of belief in Jesus Christ, ideally as our Lord and Saviour. I realize this is a vague definition which still doesn't do much to segregate christians from devils. But really isn't it all semantics? There is no doctrine that I am aware of that states being Christian is a requirement for salvation. What is required is the grace of God bestowed upon those who develop sufficient faith through a lifetime of service.

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Spiritdragon...so much good stuff in your post. Faith and works (false dichotamy, isn't it?) One difference between us and the devils is that our faith motivates us to produce good works. Believing in Jesus, yes...but believing what? Then there are those prepositions...believing ABOUT or IN? or ON?

What I appreciate about my nearly 7 years on this site is that I have learned there is no one magic bullet doctrinal discussion that will resolve our differences. Who is God? Who is Man? What is our purpose? What is the role of sin? What really happened in the Garden, and what did it mean? What does God want our destiny to be? What will we become? How big is hell? Who gets into heaven? Are there different kingdoms, or degrees of reward? Just what does "one true church" mean?

Someone suggested that the ultimate question is whether Joseph Smith was really a prophet of God. Well, that would settle it, but is one of the least possible ideas to prove or disprove.

No real bottom line here. I like that the link I provided demonstrates that there are at least two evangelicals who think that the LDS faith is "Christian enough." They are brave to say so, and likely took a good deal of grief on for doing so.

I like that we have a venue to discuss our beliefs and practices with civility, respect--even love.

I like that we can disagree and be Christlike towards one another.

And I especially like that no one has ever teased me about keeping up a picture that has to be over 5 years old. :-)

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Spiritdragon...so much good stuff in your post. Faith and works (false dichotamy, isn't it?) One difference between us and the devils is that our faith motivates us to produce good works. Believing in Jesus, yes...but believing what? Then there are those prepositions...believing ABOUT or IN? or ON?

What I appreciate about my nearly 7 years on this site is that I have learned there is no one magic bullet doctrinal discussion that will resolve our differences. Who is God? Who is Man? What is our purpose? What is the role of sin? What really happened in the Garden, and what did it mean? What does God want our destiny to be? What will we become? How big is @#!*% ? Who gets into heaven? Are there different kingdoms, or degrees of reward? Just what does "one true church" mean?

Someone suggested that the ultimate question is whether Joseph Smith was really a prophet of God. Well, that would settle it, but is one of the least possible ideas to prove or disprove.

No real bottom line here. I like that the link I provided demonstrates that there are at least two evangelicals who think that the LDS faith is "Christian enough." They are brave to say so, and likely took a good deal of grief on for doing so.

I like that we have a venue to discuss our beliefs and practices with civility, respect--even love.

I like that we can disagree and be Christlike towards one another.

And I especially like that no one has ever teased me about keeping up a picture that has to be over 5 years old. :-)

Thanks PC, I am glad you enjoyed my post. I too think it is wondrous that there are evangelicals out there with a broad enough concept of Christianity to welcome the LDS faith under that umbrella. I am also impressed that you have stayed around this group for close to seven years. It sure helps to have the perspective of some one outside of the LDS church.

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  • 1 year later...

Sometimes I just never know whether to start a new thread or resurrect an old thread. A flip of the coin says "resurrect the old thread".

 

I read another essay, this one by a Catholic theologian (I guess that's would be his title in this context), suggesting that Mormons are Christian http://rationalfaiths.com/a-letter-to-leaders-about-mormon-christianity/ . This one intrigued me because of this concept (new to me) of "kerygma". He references 1 Cor 15, where Paul lays out what some call 4 essential elements of the gospel message: Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and appearances. According to Dr. Roberts, because LDS theology clearly affirms these four elements of the gospel, Mormonism is a Christian religion.

 

If indeed these four elements are enough to be Christian, I will happily stand with the rest of Christianity to affirm these four truths of the Gospel.

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Do you think that in defining whether a religion is Christian the definition and description of God plays a role?  The Bible describes God (god the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit - the Trinity)  as eternal- having always existed as the only God and the creator of all things and all-holy, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. If someone doesn't believe these doctrines about God are they worshiping the same God?

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Do you think that in defining whether a religion is Christian the definition and description of God plays a role?  The Bible describes God (god the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit - the Trinity)  as eternal- having always existed as the only God and the creator of all things and all-holy, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. If someone doesn't believe these doctrines about God are they worshiping the same God?

 

I have a couple of thoughts on this---

 

There is no one "Christian" church.  There are over 30,000 different denominations which claim to be Christian and have many differing interpretations of the Bible.  With >30,000 interpretation on the nature of God, this can be a bit chaotic.  

 

To reduce the chaos, some groups have written and adopted various creeds saying "we believe God is XYZ".   To me, the goal of this seems to be a quick way of identifying churches that are more-or-less the same thing you believe.  I understand how that can save a person a lot of time.  

 

But what then if someone believes the Bible, loves Christ, but does not agree with part of your extra-biblical creed?  Do you call that person a "non-Christian"?

 

Speaking my personal opinion: there are many Christian churches that I think are flat-out wrong.  There are also many I think are good.  And one of course I think is the most true.  But as to the people inside, and whether or not a person is getting to Heaven, there are Mormons I don't think will (obviously I don't know for sure).  There are also people I think who are getting to Heaven which currently reside in non-LDS Christian church, and non-Christain church.  God judges a person on what they know.

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