Frustrated with church

[Jane_Doe]

Hi all,

I believe in be honest and true, so be forewarned: this is a blunt and long post. I believe in Christ and resonate strongly with Mormon doctrine, ie I don’t have any testimony issues. However, I am increasingly frustrated with physically attending church activities. I can’t go every week, and when I do ditch work and family activities to attend… I leave the church building very frustrated. I do not attend church to have a social hour—I’m always moving and am demotivated to be ‘friends’ with someone I will never see again.

Rather, I come to God’s house to lean on the spirit, to hear His words. While I’m not interested in friendships, I enjoy listening to other people’s insights and sharing my own. But… speakers are… empty. They do not speak of with the spirit and they do not speak of Christ. Rather, they babble on (with horrendous public speaking skills) about where/when they were asked to speak, recount some random story, read off some General Conference talk, and they recite empty age-old platitudes devoid of any real heart. Frankly, I find their words un-studied, smiles fake, and hearts seem empty. It fills me with frustration, evolving over time anger to anger and bitterness. Why I am here, listening to this? Why did come here, when this does not bring me closer to God?

Majority of weeks the only way I can force myself to stay during sacrament is to completely ignore the speakers and just read my scriptures. But again, why did I bother to come if it was just to read my scriptures? I do that far better at home in front of computer screen (I’m a child of the digital age).

I’ve been dealing with these emotions for a while, trying to keep a positive attitude and moving forwards. They are building a temple in my home city—I’ve been looking so forward to the groundbreaking for months. Today was the long anticipated big day… and it was 56 minutes before they ever talked about Christ—at a dedication for the House of the Lord, by the Church of Jesus Christ!!! They… they so miss the entire point.

I’m struggling to express my frustrations/heart-break here. I don’t know what to do Why do I bother physically attending church? Why should I talk to anyone? I can’t change the world, I can only change myself, which is best done on private on my knees. Why… just why…?

[estradling75]

Welcome... many of us feel the same way...

We go because it is a commandment...

And if I might be equally blunt... We draw closer to the Lord by serving others... So as long as we have the mindset of what am I going to get (which is at it core selfish) out of going the answer is going to be "very little" We need to change that mindset to "What can I give?", "How can I help my brothers and sisters draw closer to God?" When we make this change and keep it at the forefront of our thoughts the the question of why are we going answers itself.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I do not get much out of most Sacrament meeting talks. I personally wish they would shorten Sacrament meeting to 30 minutes with only one talk.

I get a lot out of Sunday school and our Priesthood meetings because people interact there. But I also tell myself that I would just be wasting time on things less valuable if I did not go. That which is eternal is very valuable compared to the dross of the world.

[Jane_Doe]

Estradling75, I understand where you're coming from, and I do feel very selfish with my attitude. Works requires that I move frequently: I will usually only be able to attend a ward 10 times before packing boxes again. So regrettably I have little opportunity to know any ward or serve any callings. I do my best to serve family and friends (mostly non-members), but at church... it usually doesn't work. And I do need to tend to my own spiritual well-being.

If I don't go to church, I spend the time with my non-member family. That I do get a lot out of.

[Just_A_Guy]

Jane, I've gone through phases where I was a lot like you--was moving a lot, and I'm somewhat of an introvert by nature anyways.

But those pesky "other people" are part of the worship experience that our Father wants us to partake of. So I just have to get outside myself and engage. It's still hard--but it is rewarding.

Those inferior speakers we see at the lectern each Sunday aren't shallow. They're just products of a modern culture that, for all its technology, really isn't very good at communicating spiritual things.

[Jane_Doe]

JAG, thank you for your reply. Might I ask: what is the reward for dealing with annoying people? (I ask honestly, not trying to be a smart-alick).

[estradling75]

JAG, thank you for your reply. Might I ask: what is the reward for dealing with annoying people? (I ask honestly, not trying to be a smart-alick).

I know you asked JAG, but I am going to answer anyway... A person becomes more Christ-like... Can you imagine how annoying God could find us all? Always asking for help... Never really listening or doing what he ask... Yet he overcomes that and continues to treat us with love and compassion. He tries to teach us to do the same.

[Just_A_Guy]

JAG, thank you for your reply. Might I ask: what is the reward for dealing with annoying people? (I ask honestly, not trying to be a smart-alick).

In addition to what Estradling said:

Everyone has a backstory, and that story--if you can learn it--is often what makes the verbal expressions so beautiful and meaningful.

"I know God loves me" sounds kind of trite, until you realize that the speaker is a recovering drug addict.

[slamjet]

Repeat 10 times: "The church is true, it's the people that are sometimes moronic."

That's what I say to myself quite often and it helps me separate the gospel from the people and reminds me that the church is lead by imperfect folks who are doing the best they can, well, at least most of the time.

[Jane_Doe]

That is true, but I'm not around long enough to get to know people's backstory's. At most I talk to people for maybe 10 minutes before moving on.

[Martain]

“Stick to the ship of Zion. If boats come to the side, showing beautiful colors and making wonderful promises, do not get off the ship to go to the shore on any other boat; but keep on the ship. If you are badly used by any of those that are on the ship, who have not got the proper spirit, remember the ship itself is alright. We should not allow our minds to become soured because of anything that the people on the ship may do to us; the ship is alright, and the officers are alright, and we will be right if we stick to the ship. I can assure you it will take you right into the land of glory.”

D&C 59

9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day;

10 For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High;

11 Nevertheless thy vows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times;

12 But remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord.

Question 8 of temple recommend interview:

Q: Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

Why I bother physically attending church:

1. Because the Lord has commanded it.

2. Because it pleases the Lord.

3. To partake of the sacrament

4. Because striving to do so is a requirement for being worthy to hold a temple recommend.

5. Because there are people there in need of a kind word or a friendly smile who I can serve and bless.

6. Because when I do, whether I fully listen to the talks, read scriptures or prayerfully ponder something weighing upon my heart, I find a rich outpouring of the spirit as I worship on Sunday at church.

7. Because I want to.

2 Nephi 33:1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.

Since when did it matter to the Lord that his servants be well versed in public speaking? Are you seriously indicating that inspired messages from the Lord's prophets and servants given to us during conference are not worth listening to or sharing?

In regards to not listening to the talks, I too do the same sometimes. Sometimes I feel to prayerfully ponder things weighing upon my heart or read and ponder scriptures rather than listen to a talk given. Often I find myself tremendously blessed and comforted by the Spirit in doing so. I then wonder whether I should have been listening and if perhaps I missed something of worth.

What if the words of the speaker are indeed unstudied? Have I never procrastinated likewise? Have i never given something in a similar manner? Have I always had the gospel knowledge to the degree I have it that their words seem unlearned? Would I not want others to be merciful to me if I were the one giving such a talk? Shall I not have compassion upon them in their weakness and forgive them their unpreparedness and pray that the Lord will bless them for the effort they did put forth? Shall I not have Charity?

What if their smiles are fake? Have I never put forth a fake smile? Have I never hid a secret wound where the best I could do was pretend to smile so as to avoid falling to tears? Have I never had trials or tribulations or pain? Have I always been friendly to others or even interested in being so? If not then how can I condemn others for doing what I myself have done or still sometimes do? Shall I not have Charity? Shall I not show compassion? Shall I not forgive them freely?

What if their hearts truly are empty? Have I never been burdened by sin? Have I never simply gone through the motions while inwardly I was starving spiritually due to the live I was pursuing? Have I never been so caught up with the things of the world to where there was little room in my heart for God? Have I never needed forgiveness? If not then how can I condemn others for doing what I myself have done or deny them the forgiveness I myself in my seasons of weakness needed from others and God? Shall I not have Charity? Compassion? Forgive freely?

Can you say with confidence that they do not speak by the power of the Holy Ghost seeing as your heart is closed to their words due to it being filled with frustration anger and bitterness? This anger and bitterness you speak of are evil fruits not of God but of the Devil and if they are the fruits then what are the seeds from which they grew?

Whether or not they have done something wrong aside, if we do not forgive others, the Lord does not forgive us and within us lies the greater sin. I hear no forgiveness within you regarding their perceived lack and if such is the case then as you point the finger at them, there are four pointing back at an even greater sin within you of a lack of charity, patience and forgiveness.

If you are close to the Lord and able to feel his comforting touch, perhaps you might inquire as to whether the cause is in them or within yourself. I am concerned lest the reason why the speakers are empty is because you are empty.

Although my words sometimes come across as sharp (2 Nephi 1:26) it is only out of care for your well-being (D&C 95:1). You are right that you can only change yourself and that it is best done in private prayer (whether alone or with others). Although my words are not as clear and as well written as I desire them, I hope you will prayerfully and humbly inquire as to whether or not I speak truly.

Sincerely,

Brother M.

[Misshalfway]

I so get that church can feel "empty". I've felt that way. It appears neither you and I are alone in feeling this frustration.

It has been helpful for me to follow the advice listed in the previous comments. Its good to see the forest for the trees and give human people a break from all that perfectionism. But its not really about that. It is a humbling thing to realize that my judgement of others and their human-ness has only to do with my weakness in needing to judge them and blame them for the supposed "emptiness". As I exercise courage to look at myself further I realize that what I see and judge in them is actually a mirror of me. Perhaps it's me this isn't spiritually preparing for the meeting. Perhaps its me that expects them to prepare to feed me spiritually in all the special ways I think I need in order feel spiritually filled. Its tough to face my own misdirected sense of entitlement and impatience and unwillingness to do my own work.

Or maybe those speakers at church really are flat and unprepared spiritually and all the rest. But truthfully none of it matters. Our relationship and access to the teachings, influence, tutorials from the Godhead had always been and will always be independent of anyone else on the planet. In essence, we are responsible for our own spiritual experiences. When I do my work and when I humble myself into diligent spiritual practice, it doesn't matter who speaks or how. I always learn and am edified. Always.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Misshalfway

[Wingnut]

I went through a period earlier this year in which I questioned why I bothered to stay. I didn't question my testimony...I just no longer felt enriched at church. (Additionally, church had, at times, ceased to feel like a "safe place" for me, because I was being criticized and worse for some of my political and cultural leanings.) Wishing for help, but afraid to ask anyone I actually knew in person (other than my husband), I started this thread. Maybe it will be of some help to you.

[Misshalfway]

Jane_Doe, what would happen if you just stayed in the church even if the people are being nerds? Would it, or could it be spiritually worth it?

[Jane_Doe]

In regards to dealing with other people: I hear other people's words about being there for others, and they've caused me to do some serious re-thinking about a lot of social interactions. A special thanks to Martain.

About my own growth and Misshalfway's comment: it's not "nerds" that bother me but... when every activity feels like sitting in Junior primary again. I've already been here, listened many times before. I question the value of sitting in a class where I can recite the lesson word-for-word before the teacher even stands up. That is when I feel empty and spiritually stunted. I want more- to learn deeper. Honestly, Misshalfway, I don't know if I spiritually benefit from being present in such settings.

[Suzie]

when every activity feels like sitting in Junior primary again. I've already been here, listened many times before. I question the value of sitting in a class where I can recite the lesson word-for-word before the teacher even stands up. That is when I feel empty and spiritually stunted. I want more- to learn deeper. Honestly, Misshalfway, I don't know if I spiritually benefit from being present in such settings.

You can still learn the deeper things at home and it's wonderful and rewarding. Yet still attend your Sunday meetings to help someone who perhaps do not have a good understanding about the basics and see their testimonies grow as everyone try their best to support them in their new journey.

[Martain]

There is no reason you can't immerse yourself in the study of the gospel during church and throughout the week outside of church. In fact such is a very good thing to do. Feel free to immerse yourself in the fountain of the gospel and drink deeply from the source of all truth contained in Christ as taught by the word of God and the Holy Ghost.

When I was converted and came back to the faith I ended up doing a rather large amount of reading. Part of this was because I was feasting upon what I had gone for so long without and letting the light and truth flood my soul but part of it was because I wanted to make up for lost time and because I had questions I wanted answered.

As a result I've read a lot of gospel books and find myself feeling more knowledgeable on various gospel themes specific subjects than quite a few of those my age. I've also created a habit that continues to bless and enrich my life as I find that I will more likely use free time to read and study a book of worth.

Then there is that I now have a very nice little collection in my own personal library of some very good books =). If you want recommendations for books that will allow you to delve deeper I do have some personal recommendations I would be happy to give you.

If you're looking for greater growth then perhaps you could also consider studying and pondering the course material during the week for the up coming Sunday. You would then be prepared to ask questions or share allowed insights with others and give deeper depth to the classes you state feel lacking. I expect that the instructor would that all attending take such a course!

As for Sacrament, arrive early and mentally prepare for the sacrament and then if the talks do not seem to be what you are seeking that day, have other material to read and ponder or simply pour out your heart in prayer to the Lord while surrounded by others seeking to be likewise enriched.

If you're not already doing the above, I feel that if you do them, you'll find things will be quite different. Be warned that such a course leads to a need to be wary as insightful comments will lead others to admire and even praise you for your input which can easily lead to pride. Be wary that the reasons for sharing insights gained from personal study are to bless and edify others rather than to elevate yourself. Also be careful not to share spirit taught insights that were meant for you alone.

I'll be honest that I am not successful in the week prior to Sunday in reading the material in advance and pondering it as my personal studies have lead me on an alternate course scripture wise than what we're doing this year. I do however have experience with needing to be wary of pride and thus warn you regarding such especially in light of a tone I perceived greatly in your original post although happily very little in those that followed.

My other recommendation? If not already, attend institute regularly! I myself am still trying to make it a part of my regular schedule and even asked on my YSA facebook page whether anyone was going that I could go with in hopes that a single pretty sister might respond! I figured such would be the 20lb bale of straw that would get the camel moving to where he wanted to go =D. Yet It's been months without a response though so it appears this camel will have to take the initiative without such additional incentives =).

I also want to say, thank you. Thank you for not responding negatively to my words to you. Thank you for receiving them in the spirit in which they were given. I really do mean well by them and it pleases me that you were able to receive them without a negative response. I don't know how much of this post will be applicable to you but the Lord does and if you ask in faith I'm confident he can help you know if any is of worth implementing in your own life.

Sincerely,

Martain

P.S. You could always share your frustrations with the Bishop and the Lord and indicate that your willing and interested in serving in a teaching capacity should the He ever inspire him down such a path. I expect such a calling would help you feel humble very very quickly =D.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Martain

[Mikedavis]

Jane, I know exactly how you feel but try and stick with it. Like you I'm a new member and like you I also find some of the talks given at sacrament meetings can drone on a little and be less than captivating. That said, for me it's priesthood I find difficult to sit through but that's most likely because I've only been a member for a little over a year and don't yet hold the priesthood so I kinda feel out of place. But you know what? Despite the fact some speakers can come across as boring or insincere and even despite the fact I am always being reminded am only a new convert and that I "should have served a mission" every week I come away from church with the same wonderful feeling I had the day I was baptized!

[mnn727]

From President Eyring Speeches

Years ago I was sitting in a sacrament meeting with my father, whose name is the same as my own, Henry Eyring. He seemed to be enjoying what I thought was a terrible talk. I watched my father, and to my amazement, his face was beaming as the speaker droned on. I kept stealing looks back at him, and sure enough, through the whole thing he had this beatific smile.

Our home was near enough to the ward that we walked home. I remember walking with my father on the shoulder of the road that wasn’t paved. I kicked a stone ahead of me as I plotted what I would do next. I finally got up enough courage to ask him what he thought of the meeting. He said it was wonderful.

Now I really had a problem. My father had a wonderful sense of humor, but you didn’t want to push it too far. I was puzzled. I was trying to summon up enough courage to ask him how I could have such a different opinion of that meeting and that speaker.

Like all good fathers, he must have read my mind because he started to laugh. He said: “Hal, let me tell you something. Since I was a very young man, I have taught myself to do something in a church meeting. When the speaker begins, I listen carefully and ask myself what it is he is trying to say. Then once I think I know what he is trying to accomplish, I give myself a sermon on that subject.” He let that sink in for a moment as we walked along. Then, with that special self-deprecating chuckle of his, he said, “Hal, since then I have never been to a bad meeting.”

Later in the same talk:

He could listen to anybody. He used to embarrass me when we stopped to get gas because he would seek advice from the gas station attendant. Dad would always treat him as an equal. Dad would say: “Look, I can learn something from anybody. They have had experiences I haven’t had.

Edited August 25, 2013 by mnn727

[Dark_Jedi]

I understand your feelings, Jane_Doe, and indeed share them. In fact it's a main reason I don't attend church. While I don't believe the people there are being insincere or hypocritical, I do mostly believe they are superficial and often don't know what they're actually saying. I'm not telling you not to go to church, there are other reasons I don't go and if it were just this reason I would go. As others have pointed out, the people are not the gospel or even the church, both are far greater than people. Here's something I have done in the past that might work for you. Once you find out what the topic is (sometimes that's difficult with what appear to be pointless talks but many times they just blurt it out) begin composing your own talk on the subject in your head.

I also agree that the church generally does not emphasize Christ enough. People here are going to respond that it's all about Christ because even a talk on paying tithing is teaching a Christlike principle, etc. I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it. I have often heard this criticism from non-members after they have attended Sacrament Meeting, and they're correct. There does need to be more direct reference to the Savior - this is the Church of Jesus Christ, after all. I'll give you my own example, also. Once many years ago when I was in the army I was visiting another ward on Easter Sunday. I'm not sure if the bishopric forgot it was Easter or whatever, but there was not a single talk about Easter, the Savior, the atonement, nothing related to Easter. The guy conducting did say happy Easter but that was it. The songs weren't even Easter hymns! Were I a non-member visiting that day, I would have had no reservations about telling people Mormons are not Christians.

[Guest]

Me no speak good or understand booklarnin', but me Christian.

[beefche]

There does need to be more direct reference to the Savior - this is the Church of Jesus Christ, after all. I'll give you my own example, also. Once many years ago when I was in the army I was visiting another ward on Easter Sunday. I'm not sure if the bishopric forgot it was Easter or whatever, but there was not a single talk about Easter, the Savior, the atonement, nothing related to Easter. The guy conducting did say happy Easter but that was it. The songs weren't even Easter hymns! Were I a non-member visiting that day, I would have had no reservations about telling people Mormons are not Christians.

Wow, that ward didn't have sacrament? I am quite surprised by that. Since the sacrament is the real reason we have SACRAMENT meeting and the sacrament is rich of the atonement, it is so very surprising that there was no sacrament served that day.

And I'm confused....should we just start saying the word Jesus so we can be Christians? I thought that to be a Christian one has to follow the principles taught by Jesus. Talks on principles of the Gospel don't count? Encouragement to live as Christ lived (even without saying His name) doesn't qualify us as Christians?

[pam]

Beefche I was going to ask the very same question about the Sacrament.

[mnn727]

I also agree that the church generally does not emphasize Christ enough. People here are going to respond that it's all about Christ because even a talk on paying tithing is teaching a Christlike principle, etc. I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it. I have often heard this criticism from non-members after they have attended Sacrament Meeting, and they're correct.

You know, I bought into this saying myself for a while, then I started counting how many times Christ was mentioned on a Sunday (not including prayers) and was pleasantly surprised. I urge you to do the same, keep a running count some Sunday yourself.

We hear what we want to hear and we buy into what we want to buy into. Just because we don't have a paid professional minister, that doesn't mean we don't: "talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins."

[Jane_Doe]

It's not about saying "Christ" to be validated in someone else's eyes. It's about whether or not we talk of Christ, whether we rejoice in Christ, whether we preach of Christ, whether we prophesy of Christ, and whether we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. That is the big goal. Talking about tithing or such things is fine, but those are secondary things which exist to point us towards Christ and we should never loose sight of that.

Going to church and never talking about Christ (other than in passing) is like going to some kid's birthday party, and spending the entire time just talking about doing the dishes: you missed the entire point of why you're there!

(lol mnn, I was typing the same time you were)