Ferguson Fury

[NeuroTypical]

My local police chief told us the story about the first time he was injured on the job.  A rather small 14 yr old girl was apprehended one night (trying to rob a place or something).  The chief (who was a beat cop at the time), had placed handcuffs on her, as she was violent.  He was standing behind her, holding her arms firmly to keep her from thrashing around or running away.  She used his hold on her, to swing her entire 95 lbs up into the air, and come down with all her weight on one foot, right into his knee.  He spent over a month in a cast.

 

Cops have a rough job.  Unarmed does not = not dangerous.  Tiny or child does not = not dangerous.  Crying or depressed or female does not = not dangerous.  You go for a cop's gun, and the only rational reaction is for the cop to fear for his life or the life of others should you get it.  That's a clear and imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm, which justifies the use of deadly force to stop the threat.

 

And if you've got several inches and dozens of pounds on the cop and go for his gun, that only makes the threat more apparent.

 

The grand jury's verdict, according to what I've read about the evidence (and the grand jury system), seems fair and just.  No reason to believe race or politics was even a factor.

Edited November 25, 2014 by NeuroTypical

[Just_A_Guy]

From the police scanner last night it sounded like the cops were playing whack-a-mole--pacify an area, move on, and then get called back to that same area half an hour later.

Tonight I think they should enact a curfew, get the National Guard out in force, and order them to shoot looters on sight.

[pam]

JAG as you very well know I was listening to that police scanner as well.  It was interesting to hear responders being told to retreat. That happened a few times in the case of fire fighters.  They had to let some businesses burn because of gun fire.  Unsafe for the fire fighters.

 

Toys R Us is one business that comes to mind that falls within what you describe.

[Windseeker]

I thought they were prepared and that the National Guard was at the ready. Did the figure keep it contained and allow them to take out their aggression on the local businesses?

[pam]

While the parents of Michael Brown asked for there to be peace...it's interesting to see the video now coming out of the stepfather inciting people to burn the place down.

[Backroads]

Already a casualty.

[Palerider]

While the parents of Michael Brown asked for there to be peace...it's interesting to see the video now coming out of the stepfather inciting people to burn the place down.

I always thought if they were really serious about peace they should go down to the protest area and promote it. That's my opinion.

[Palerider]

The National Guard only did what the Govenor asked them to do. He did not want to be forceful. It was almost as if he wanted them to pass out milk and cookies.

[Palerider]

I also forgot to mention that the firefighters in the area where I live have been put on standby. They all could be called to the Ferguson area. I live an hour south of where all this is going down.

[Leah]

Well....here in Portland, the usual group of "professional" protestors are causing the usual mayhem.

I work in downtown and was able to get out before the worst of it (one of their favorite tactics is to block streets and bridges and they always time it for rush hour). There are now people being attacked in their cars by the protestors. I had to chuckle a little at one incident. They had a car stopped. They started to attack the driver through the window. He got out and he was HUGE. The scrawny little protestors started backing up. He didn't touch any of them, but they wouldn't have stood a chance if he had.

A few minutes ago, the chatter on the scanner was the cops trying to get to another motorist - a woman - who was trapped by protestors. And aS usual here in Portland, there have been attacks on the police by the protestors. I have unfortunately had a front-row view to similar protests here and have always been impressed by the restraint of the police.

I listened to the Ferguson scanner last night and caught a little bit of video from some moron involved in the rioting. He was whining about police being in riot gear and using armored vehicles. Molotov cocktails are being thrown and shot are being fired. You really expect the police not to protect themselves? Can you imagine what the situation would be like without their protection? The burglaries and arsons would continue unabated.

What I saw and heard last night was disgusting on so many levels. I don't even have the words.

[Crypto]

Do you mean avoid using lethal force when force is called for? If a cop isn't justified in using lethal force he shouldn't be pulling the trigger. Ideally all shootings are in a lethal manner and no shootings are in a non-lethal manner. Indeed 'shooting to wound'* can be prima facie evidence that you didn't feel lethal force was justified, in which case you used the wrong tool for the job.

 

*If you meant something else by 'avoid shooting in a lethal manner' I'd welcome clarification.

There are numerous instances of cops killing people when a lost life could have been avoided. The issue I have isn't self-defense for the cop.

I understand how the law justifies when a cop is legally allowed to shoot. I just wish they reacted a bit more like Germany when it comes to shooting another human being. 

[Just_A_Guy]

The interesting thing in a lot of these discussions is when you ask Wilson's critics what he should have done once Brown started hitting him; because nearly every one of their answers boils down to something along the lines of "he should have kept taking hits".

[Traveler]

Hmmmmmmmm - Really? Does anyone think that violent demonstrations because of Ferguson are caused by those violent demonstrators being unjustly targeted by police?

 

As I understand the argument: it is that the blacks in Ferguson are angry because they believe that they (individuals) are unjustly targeted and harassed that had nothing to do with any of the actual problem in their community?  And they are going to solve this by unjustly targeting and harassing businesses or property of someone that had nothing to do with the actual harassment problem they are experiencing????

 

If their excuse is that unjust targeting and harassment is proof of evil bigoted racial hatred - then what are they and those the defend and enable their behavior of vandalizing and looting business and property of individuals that were in no way involved in the death that took place?

[Traveler]

The interesting thing in a lot of these discussions is when you ask Wilson's critics what he should have done once Brown started hitting him; because nearly every one of their answers boils down to something along the lines of "he should have kept taking hits".

 

Interesting thought - Having been trained in the military on how to survive a violent confrontation - there are only two options:

 

1. Retreat - but in considering this option how are police to go about apprehending any aggressive criminals. 

2. Take the upper hand and at minimum stay one step a head of what-ever is actions are escalating.  Actually to survive one must have the mentality of staying as many steps a head as possible - that there is no such thing as excessive force.

 

 

The truth is that any resistance in a confrontation has only two possibilities - that the party being rested withdraw or that the pressure against resistance is increased.  Any resistance in a situation where conditions have already reached the point that shots have been fired will likely end in the resistor being killed.  To expect otherwise is flawed and foolish - especially in the face of reality.

 

I often wonder at the mentality of police backing off someone resisting - even a speeder in a busy residential area.  If someone is deliberately putting the property and lives of others at risk for any reason - that element and mentality must be removed or as soon and as efficiently as possible - or lives will eventually be unnecessarily  lost and property unnecessary destroyed.

[Dravin]

There are numerous instances of cops killing people when a lost life could have been avoided. The issue I have isn't self-defense for the cop.

I understand how the law justifies when a cop is legally allowed to shoot. I just wish they reacted a bit more like Germany when it comes to shooting another human being. 

 

So it sounds like you want more restraint in when lethal force is used, not some sort of stupid "shoot to wound policy." Which is fine, it's just your initial phrasing could have been read either way.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Dravin

[Guest]

There are numerous instances of cops killing people when a lost life could have been avoided. The issue I have isn't self-defense for the cop.

I understand how the law justifies when a cop is legally allowed to shoot. I just wish they reacted a bit more like Germany when it comes to shooting another human being. 

 

So, it's like this... McDonald's employees are trained to give you fast food.  You go through a drive through, the McDonald's employee messes up, you're out a Big Mac or you get to sue McDonald's for millions for your spilled coffee... and everyone goes home.  The employee gets to go back to work and mess up again the next day.

 

Doctors, on the other hand, get a dead person in their hands when they mess up.  They don't just get to go home.  They get to go through the angst of having killed someone worrying everyday if they could've done it differently, losing their license and their means of livelihood and millions for malpractice.  They usually don't get to show up the next day.

 

Cops, are in a whole 'nother ballpark.  Not only could they end up with a dead person in their hands when they mess up, they could go home in a body bag when they mess up.  And for what... $40K/year and a pension plan?

 

Some idiots in Florida called the cops saying the house is on fire.  The cops show up and the first cop through the door got shot dead... yes, all the way down in Florida in reaction to all the way up in Ferguson.

 

It's easy for us to say, "he shouldn't have done this he should have done that instead"... but the reality is, walking the beat leaves no room for armchair quarterbacks.

Edited November 26, 2014 by anatess

[prisonchaplain]

This incident has changed my views on a related topic--Affirmative Action (or Affirmative Employment, the new PC term).  I still oppose quotas, and would be loathe to see the government force private industry to hire by non-skill/knowledge related standards.  Yet, for some public positions, it probably is healthy for agencies to attempt some effort at having their workforce resemble the communities they serve.  In a community that is majority-African American, having only 5% African-American officers is probably not wise.

[Guest]

This incident has changed my views on a related topic--Affirmative Action (or Affirmative Employment, the new PC term).  I still oppose quotas, and would be loathe to see the government force private industry to hire by non-skill/knowledge related standards.  Yet, for some public positions, it probably is healthy for agencies to attempt some effort at having their workforce resemble the communities they serve.  In a community that is majority-African American, having only 5% African-American officers is probably not wise.

 

Well, your Affirmative Action method is only relevant if.... the PD was routinely rejecting Black applications.  I doubt very much that this is the case.  It is more like - Blacks are not applying for PD jobs.  Because, it is an insult to the Black Community to say that they are too stupid to compete for PD jobs against the White folks...

 

So, it is not that there are no Black cops.  It is more like... the Black Community do not want to be cops - and no amount of Affirmative anything will change that.  What can change that is to treat all people - black white yellow red blue - as One Nation.  A nation of Americans, so that people are invested in their own communities because they Love their own slice of America.

Edited November 26, 2014 by anatess

[Traveler]

This incident has changed my views on a related topic--Affirmative Action (or Affirmative Employment, the new PC term).  I still oppose quotas, and would be loathe to see the government force private industry to hire by non-skill/knowledge related standards.  Yet, for some public positions, it probably is healthy for agencies to attempt some effort at having their workforce resemble the communities they serve.  In a community that is majority-African American, having only 5% African-American officers is probably not wise.

 

My opinion - I disagree: If we believe a community or society (local or global) is defined by race and that such community(s) has it own unique issues - then because of that race that they should be politically represented uniquely by representatives of their race and governed uniquely by those of their race and served by those of their race - we are opponents of apartheid or segregation.  A black public servant in a white dominated society or a white public servant in a black dominated society is not near the problem as the thinking that race is a factor but rather the  quality of service.  Anytime someone expects something different because of their race or someone else race - it defines them as a racists.

 

It is racial bigotry to think one's issues are separate from humanity and unique to one's race.  If we think in terms that blacks need good leaders - we are in essence opponents of segregation and apartheid - in other words acting as a raciest.  We need to think in therms that humanity (mankind) needs good and consistent leaders as well as citizens that do not consider race as any concern.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Traveler

[Windseeker]

My opinion - I disagree: If we believe a community or society (local or global) is defined by race and that such community(s) has it own unique issues - then because of that race that they should be politically represented uniquely by representatives of their race and governed uniquely by those of their race and served by those of their race - we are opponents of apartheid or segregation.  A black public servant in a white dominated society or a white public servant in a black dominated society is not near the problem as the thinking that race is a factor but rather the  quality of service.  Anytime someone expects something different because of their race or someone else race - it defines them as a racists.

 

It is racial bigotry to think one's issues are separate from humanity and unique to one's race.  If we think in terms that blacks need good leaders - we are in essence opponents of segregation and apartheid - in other words acting as a raciest.  We need to think in therms that humanity (mankind) needs good and consistent leaders as well as citizens that do not consider race as any concern.

 

That is exactly how I see it.

 

Unfortunately there is a an entire industry based on enmity in the U.S. that would collapse if the majority of our citizens thought this way. 

[writesong]

@ PRISON CHAPLAIN, Et Alii:

 

Your comments interest me - - - , and also RILE me!

 

Like you, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, I was employed as a Correctional Supervisor in the Utah State Prison.

 

Unlike you (and probably most others in this forum), I readily admit, without apology, to being a white man who's racially prejudiced against black people.

 

Because of my advanced age, I can remember what it was like to grow up in a racially segregated community, which was a whole lot safer environment than what we're forced to endure today, indeed, so much safer precisely because that community was racially segregated.

 

Anyway, I recently underwent surgery on my cervical spine.

 

After returning from the hospital to the Armed Forces Retirement Home, I needed to have my bandage changed, a simple procedure which normally should have required mere minutes to accomplish.

 

I became angry at the blatantly obvious ineptitude of the black nurses on duty, and sent e-mails to the executive administrators of this Home, who are white, accusing them of being enablers for hiring people based on the color of their skin.

 

As a result, I've been evicted from the Armed Forces Retirement Home, and must leave this place on Friday 05 December 2014.

 

With little money (less than a thousand dollars) and no place to go, I plan to sleep in the cargo bed of my pickup truck, which has a camper shell to help protect me from the elements and the criminals.

 

Needing living space in my pickup truck, I'm having to abandon nearly all of my personal possessions.

 

There's no point in renting a storage facility, for I plan to just wander on down the highway to see where it will take me, and never return to this area.

 

Besides, I wouldn't be able to lift and move any of my belongings, appliances, and furnishings.

 

I'm in so much pain that I can barely stand and walk.

 

I have a wheelchair, which I resort to using occasionally, but there's no room for it in my pickup truck, nor would I have strength to lift it into or out of my pickup truck, so I'll abandon it.

 

Winter is just beginning, and I'm already sick with chronic severe coughing spasms (hiatal hernia?), unpredictable bladder and bowels (probably due to damaged liver and kidneys), chronic pain from my spinal cord deterioration, and yes, I now even have four stents in my heart, because of my heart attack last Christmas.

 

At first, I considered going to help guard the Mexican Border (which, I must admit, for an old man working all alone, would probably be suicidal).

 

However, as a result of the recent unconstitutional announcements from the White House, what is there left to protect?

 

Anyway, I refuse to be politically correct and just go along with the system.

 

I remember our United States of America and The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints the way it USED to be, a long time ago, before the incalculable omnipresent damage rendered by the 1954 Supreme Court case of, "BROWN VERSUS BOARD OF EDUCATION".

 

If you can stomach it, there's more detailed information at my own personal web site, "OUR ETERNAL STRUGGLE", in my post, "AMERICAN NEGROES ARE STILL SLAVES".

 

The conventional computer Internet URL for that web site is:

 

http://writesong.blogspot.com/2011/03/american-negroes-are-still-slaves.html

 

I ain't your average Mormon.

 

Actually, I'm guessing that living on the road, chasing adventures, will likely IMPROVE my health and disposition.

 

Yep, Mormon or Jack Mormon, "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", and I was after all, once upon a time a soldier, and young.

 

Thank you.

[Crypto]

So, it's like this... 

 I'll repeat, I support the police in their own defense. However there are too many instances where innocent lives have been lost because of the cops. I absolutely do not support that.

(And doctors get certain levels of immunity from being fired for making mistakes)

fyi My stance on Ferguson, a fair Jury saw the evidence and made a decision. They released the evidence and it supports their decision. Riots, theft, and destroying other peoples stuff isn't an acceptable form protest.

I'll clarify my opinion with some perspective. I grew up in a town where the cops were called, while there was an active break in at a school. The cops couldn't have been more than 10 minutes away and never showed up. Several witnesses saw a man beat, and then dumped into a trunk. Cops called and never showed up. Later more than half the police force were accused of various crimes, including corruption charges. (I'm not going into any more detail than that, but some of it is pretty bad. Various sentences to the different individuals) New set of cops, and several more have been arrested for various charges. I have a friend with his family who the police followed home, then started up their lights harassed them outside their house (which they got on camera) and starting looking for a ticket-able offense to give them. This is just the stuff I have been privy to. I don't trust cops, Too many instances of them being the same as other criminals. I have personally been harassed, and other members in my ward have also been harassed for doing nothing more than walking home. The sheriff for the county are awesome though. Those guys do their job, and don't antagonize law-abiding people. (I'm not an outlying ethnic group where I am at, so i'm not playing toward race.)

 

No theoretical arguments will change my mind on this, too much experience against it.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Crypto

[Palerider]

While going thru CC classes one of the things they always kept repeating over and over.....if you call 911 over someone in your home and your holding them at gun point be sure and tell the dispatcher you are the one holding the gun....Police don't know what there getting into on calls and when going into a home they sure don't know who the bad guy or good guy is. I don't think that's a job for me. I have more and more respect for my son in law who is a deputy sheriff.

[Vort]

John, you're entitled to your opinion, especially one formed from personal experiences, as yours has been. But I assume you realize that both the Church and this very discussion list have black people as members, who are just as much brothers and sisters as anyone else. I also assume you would not wish to be judged by the actions of the worst (or even just random) people in your racial group.

 

If you have hard feelings toward black people in general because of unpleasant black people you have encountered, then you can have no principled objection to the many black people who hate whites because some white guy once called them a nasty name. Both as a reasonable human being and as a son of God who is striving to be like Christ, you may want to rethink these attitudes.

[prisonchaplain]

Sometimes, fair or not, just being part of a subgroup gives one insights.  If Ferguson doesn't get enough African-American recruits for its PD then it might need to recruit.  It might need to offer incentives.  Yes, it goes against my grain.  However, I am seeing that in some circumstances who we are can be part of a qualifications package.

 

Now...if I can just find a place that is lacking in middle class, upper middle-aged white men...

 

Well, your Affirmative Action method is only relevant if.... the PD was routinely rejecting Black applications.  I doubt very much that this is the case.  It is more like - Blacks are not applying for PD jobs.  Because, it is an insult to the Black Community to say that they are too stupid to compete for PD jobs against the White folks...

 

So, it is not that there are no Black cops.  It is more like... the Black Community do not want to be cops - and no amount of Affirmative anything will change that.  What can change that is to treat all people - black white yellow red blue - as One Nation.  A nation of Americans, so that people are invested in their own communities because they Love their own slice of America.