auzziegirl Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) The overall message I take away from these discussions (at least when they occur on this forum), is a sense (never said explicitly) that sex is not and should not be a priority in any marriage.......... ...........It often feels like our attitude does not leave room to make the sexual relationship a (not the only) priority in marriage. I don't know how close the OP really is to divorce, but, as I look at my own struggles and desires, sometimes what I really want is someone to acknowledge that it is ok to make the sexual side of marriage a priority -- that it is ok to actively pursue a sexual relationship with one's wife. Current research with FMRI's shows that during the peak of marital relations (I am sidestepping around technical terms so as to not be banned or receive a warning!! :)) oxytocin is released. Oxytocin has been shown to be "associated with the ability to maintain healthy interpersonal relationships and healthy psychological boundaries with other people." When it is released during xxxxxx (the peek of marital relations), it begins creating an emotional bond. The more sex, the greater the bond. Vasopressin, an antidiuretic hormone, is another chemical that has been associated with the formation of long-term, monogamous relationships. Oxytocin and Vasopressin, (also considered the bonding hormone) are released at 4 times the amount in men during the peek of marital relations. The male brain is literally flooded with both hormones, creating a strong attachment, bond, and commitment between a man and his partner. At no other time is the male brain flooded with such large amounts of either hormone. Sex is literally one of the most powerful bonding agents for the male (Note: I did not say that sex was the only bonding agent, but it is the most powerful bonding agent in chemically technical terms). Interestingly enough, oxytocin and vasopressin are also released in women during sex, but at not nearly the same amount. Women release the same quantities during sex as holding a child, cuddling with their spouse, or socialization (talking with other women). Men also release small quantities of oxytocin and vasopressin when engaging in those same activities, but not nearly at the same levels as women, and not even close to the amounts released during the peek of marital relations. I think this brings up some interesting disconnects between the sexes. As women do not receive nearly the amount of 'feel good' hormones during sex as men do, its easy to classify sex with the same priority as spending time with the kids, or cuddling our spouses during a movie, or just hanging out with our friends. We literally do not understand why men cannot just easily substitute one for the other. On the flip side, it seems men have a hard time understanding how women can so easily live without sex and still feel as if all their emotional needs are being met!. I find this relevant as it helps to explain (but not excuse) why men tend to loose affection and commitment for their spouse when denied regular intimacy. It also helps explain why men feel particularly loved and bonded when regular sex is part of the equation. (Its also interesting to note that the same bonding hormones are released irregardless of the setting, thus pornography may have unintended ramifications when it comes to attachment. Pornography may cause strong attachments and commitments to inanimate objects). As discussed, there are many valid reasons why frequent intimacy may be difficult in marriage. If frequent intimacy is not an option it may be worth exploring other activities that facilitate the release oxotocin and vasopressin in men. However, sex is by far the fastest and most effective route. I think as women we forget, or perhaps do not understand the importance of sex for our husbands. Much of that may have to do with the physical, biological, and psychological make-up of men. Edited October 31, 2014 by auzziegirl Sunday21 and Backroads 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auzziegirl Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 The third A is Addiction Thanks! And, it was definitely a "duh!, of course "... face palm kinda moment"!!! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenThereDoneThat Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Per the original question: Matt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. In a perfect society, we'd all live this higher law, as Talmage points out in "Jesus the Christ." Unfortunately, like the ancient Israelites, who could put aside their wives simply by giving them a writ of divorcement, we seem to be living the lower law. Otherwise second marriages couldn't be performed in temples. I highly doubt the church would condone a relationship that resulted in the couple committing adultery. Everyone feel free to jump in and clarify the issue if you think I've misinterpreted it. I find it rather confusing myself, despite Talmage's explanation. auzziegirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 I highly doubt the church would condone a relationship that resulted in the couple committing adultery. The church presumes repentance. auzziegirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Current research with FMRI's shows that during the peak of marital relations (I am sidestepping around technical terms so as to not be banned or receive a warning!! :)) oxytocin is released. Oxytocin has been shown to be "associated with the ability to maintain healthy interpersonal relationships and healthy psychological boundaries with other people." When it is released during xxxxxx (the peek of marital relations), it begins creating an emotional bond. The more sex, the greater the bond. Vasopressin, an antidiuretic hormone, is another chemical that has been associated with the formation of long-term, monogamous relationships. Oxytocin and Vasopressin, (also considered the bonding hormone) are released at 4 times the amount in men during the peek of marital relations. The male brain is literally flooded with both hormones, creating a strong attachment, bond, and commitment between a man and his partner. At no other time is the male brain flooded with such large amounts of either hormone. Sex is literally one of the most powerful bonding agents for the male (Note: I did not say that sex was the only bonding agent, but it is the most powerful bonding agent in chemically technical terms). Interestingly enough, oxytocin and vasopressin are also released in women during sex, but at not nearly the same amount. Women release the same quantities during sex as holding a child, cuddling with their spouse, or socialization (talking with other women). Men also release small quantities of oxytocin and vasopressin when engaging in those same activities, but not nearly at the same levels as women, and not even close to the amounts released during the peek of marital relations. I think this brings up some interesting disconnects between the sexes. As women do not receive nearly the amount of 'feel good' hormones during sex as men do, its easy to classify sex with the same priority as spending time with the kids, or cuddling our spouses during a movie, or just hanging out with our friends. We literally do not understand why men cannot just easily substitute one for the other. On the flip side, it seems men have a hard time understanding how women can so easily live without sex and still feel as if all their emotional needs are being met!. I find this relevant as it helps to explain (but not excuse) why men tend to loose affection and commitment for their spouse when denied regular intimacy. It also helps explain why men feel particularly loved and bonded when regular sex is part of the equation. (Its also interesting to note that the same bonding hormones are released irregardless of the setting, thus pornography may have unintended ramifications when it comes to attachment. Pornography may cause strong attachments and commitments to inanimate objects). As discussed, there are many valid reasons why frequent intimacy may be difficult in marriage. If frequent intimacy is not an option it may be worth exploring other activities that facilitate the release oxotocin and vasopressin in men. However, sex is by far the fastest and most effective route. I think as women we forget, or perhaps do not understand the importance of sex for our husbands. Much of that may have to do with the physical, biological, and psychological make-up of men. Fascinating claim... Can you cite your source for the biological differences? auzziegirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) In putting this down, I think I hit on one of the things I find most frustrating about these kinds of conversations. The overall message I take away from these discussions (at least when they occur on this forum), is a sense (never said explicitly) that sex is not and should not be a priority in any marriage. Part of that is simply a hold over from the days when I really believed that was what the Church wanted me to believe. It often feels like our attitude does not leave room to make the sexual relationship a (not the only) priority in marriage. I don't know how close the OP really is to divorce, but, as I look at my own struggles and desires, sometimes what I really want is someone to acknowledge that it is ok to make the sexual side of marriage a priority -- that it is ok to actively pursue a sexual relationship with one's wife. I always shake my head in these things because for some reason, when I say that sex is simply one of the many expressions of Love and the lack of it doesn't imply there's no love... that the Western cultures somehow translate it to "Sex is not a priority". The Eastern cultures still retain the security of Family as the measure of Love so much so that people intending to marry look for someone with the resources to protect and provide for the Family unit more than the presence of sexual attraction. But, it is still Love nonetheless! The "old church" (I'd consider that to mean Catholic) as you put it, has it right. They don't put sex on a pedestal because it is LOVE that is on the pedestal. And they want to emphasize that one is not synonymous to the other, so much so that just because sex is not present doesn't mean that Love is not present and that it is time to divorce! And it is wrong to say that if you are a homosexual you're just out of luck because the Catholic Church tells you you're not "allowed to love" the person you want to have sex with (saying that love, as the foundation of marriage, can only happen when sexual attraction is present). Yes, sex is a priority... simply as an expression of Love and the foundation of families. LOVE is the foundation. Sex is its natural, powerful expression. But, a homosexual, for example, CAN love without requiring him/her to express that love in a sexual manner - that is, if you "get" this basic Christian principle of love! And this is really the best way I can explain this concept. So, if you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I don't know how else to explain it. Edited October 31, 2014 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningStar Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 No, I'm not saying there's a simple answer, but wives should at least care about their husbands' feelings if they don't care for it. So they need to learn to communicate what they want or seek counseling if it's an issue of abuse rather than have an attitude of, "Sorry. I just don't like it." auzziegirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 No, I'm not saying there's a simple answer, but wives should at least care about their husbands' feelings if they don't care for it. So they need to learn to communicate what they want or seek counseling if it's an issue of abuse rather than have an attitude of, "Sorry. I just don't like it." Wives who love their husbands will do everything in her power to do so. Husbands who love their wives will not require her to do so. Do you see what I'm saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auzziegirl Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Fascinating claim... Can you cite your source for the biological differences? Yes! Absolutely! I have several sources. When I first heard about the role hormones play in attachment I found it fascinating and read several studies supporting the data. It was a "ahh...that now makes sense" kinda moment for me. However, Due to the adult nature of the studies I am only willing to provide the references through private message. If anyone else is interested in the references, please let me know and I will forward them to you. (Anatess, it may take me a few hours as I am about to run to a concert my boy is in, but I will get them to you today... :) ) Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auzziegirl Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Wives who love their husbands will do everything in her power to do so. Husbands who love their wives will not require her to do so. Do you see what I'm saying? Can you elaborate? I don't want to assume your meaning. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Yes! Absolutely! I have several sources. When I first heard about the role hormones play in attachment I found it fascinating and read several studies supporting the data. It was a "ahh...that now makes sense" kinda moment for me. However, Due to the adult nature of the studies I am only willing to provide the references through private message. If anyone else is interested in the references, please let me know and I will forward them to you. (Anatess, it may take me a few hours as I am about to run to a concert my boy is in, but I will get them to you today... :) ) I had not considered that factor... You are correct this forum would not be the place for posting such Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Can you elaborate? I don't want to assume your meaning. Thanks! I can write a 3-page essay to elaborate this. As a matter of fact, I did so for a college course. LOL. The basic premise is that LOVE is something you give regardless of what you receive. There's this story about the wife who sold her hair that she absolutely finds precious to buy her husband a strap for his watch that she knows is precious to him. At the same time, the husband sold his watch that he absolutely finds precious to buy his wife a comb for her hair that he knows is precious to her... it illustrates it perfectly. Edited October 31, 2014 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crypto Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) I have read a study where women's brains release of prolactin at the peak of aforementioned topic is higher. [i find this skipping around the topic ridiculous, is this really necessary? I guess it helps provide a buffer against worse topics] Prolactin was used as an indicator of satiation, and the interpretation of such is that the act is actually more satisfying in the end for women then men. In the study done, hormonal indicators of satisfaction were higher among couples than individuals. What you are saying about oxytocin seems to make a lot of sense. Edited October 31, 2014 by Crypto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar4321 Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 Us men are commanded to love our wives like Christ lived the church. Christ loved us so much that He gave His life for us. He didn't love us because we loved Him. He loves us even when we don't love Him.the Lord gave us our wives to love, cherish, and honor. If there isn't love in the relationship it's our responsibility to seek the Lord and figure out how to restore it. The Folk Prophet, auzziegirl and Backroads 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auzziegirl Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) I have read a study where women's brains release of prolactin at the peak of aforementioned topic is higher. [i find this skipping around the topic ridiculous, is this really necessary? I guess it helps provide a buffer against worse topics] Prolactin was used as an indicator of satiation, and the interpretation of such is that the act is actually more satisfying in the end for women then men. In the study done, hormonal indicators of satisfaction were higher among couples than individuals. What you are saying about oxytocin seems to make a lot of sense. Very interesting! I haven't heard of prolactin, but am going to research it now. With new advancements in science and our ability to see into the brain with ever increasing accuracy, there are many studies studying all different aspects of the brain, several which seem to contradict each other. As a lay person, I try and read several different studies, and realize that the information is ever changing especially when it comes to such a hot topic as our brains and sex. Although the science does seem to agree on one point, and that is that sex is good for you! I also agree that skipping around the topic is a little ridiculous, but also understand why the rules are in place. I am sure many underage users browse this forum, and also agree that this forum shouldn't be the source of in-depth knowledge on the subject! (Why do I have this irresistible urge to change the second sentence to "....there are many studly studies studying..." Sorry, some silly forum humor...I couldn't resist!) Edited November 1, 2014 by auzziegirl Crypto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsifer42 Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 I can write a 3-page essay to elaborate this. As a matter of fact, I did so for a college course. LOL. The basic premise is that LOVE is something you give regardless of what you receive. There's this story about the wife who sold her hair that she absolutely finds precious to buy her husband a strap for his watch that she knows is precious to him. At the same time, the husband sold his watch that he absolutely finds precious to buy his wife a comb for her hair that he knows is precious to her... it illustrates it perfectly. The Gift of the Magi, by O. Henry. Far and away my favorite Christmas story. Read it every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marriedbutlonely Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) ActiveLDSDadandFather I will admit that I haven't read this whole thread, but just the general premise on the first page. I would like to address the poster that started this thread. Your biggest complaint about your wife seems to be about intimacy. You have a small child, and one one the way. I suggest that you go to therapy, or just read about women and intimacy. You have stated that you cuddle, kiss, and have intimacy outside of the bedroom, but she just isn't in the mood most of the time. I have some experience in this matter unfortunately. If you read about this topic, time and again you will find the information that men and women are extremely different in this area! Men are very visual and for them the connection is basically hormonal. For women, there is so much that goes on inside a women's brain. Her brain, heart, and then body must connect for her to "be in the mood". Please understand that I know how important this part of marriage is. However, one of the hardest hurdles to get over is the beginning of making a family together. Your roles have changed dramatically as you have one (almost two) more lives to revolve around. Sometimes it takes years to figure out this change and how to make it work in your particular situation. You talk as if this problem will last forever. However, I can guarantee you that it is solvable. There needs to be compromise, and most likely therapy, to make it though this issue that is very relevant, but also very common. You sound like a very smart guy. Keep giving your wife your love. Watch daily for the expressions of love that she gives to you. Back rubs, kisses, snuggles, giggles, listening to you. Acknowledge within yourself these expressions and feel truly grateful for them. Do not get bitter, that will only drive the wedge deeper. You CAN make this work. It can be hard, but it will honestly be worth is. Look at the positive, strive to be selfless, but don't let her be selfish either. Let her know what you need - besides in the bedroom. Is there something else you need from her? Make sure you let her know. But, don't forget what she needs to. Ask her - what is she missing in this relationship? Good luck! Edited December 10, 2014 by marriedbutlonely MrShorty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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