Why must we perform ordinances for by proxy for the dead?

[pipeorgan]

This has never made much sense to me.  Why would God make it so that spirits are limited without temple work being done by people on earth?  This would mean that millions upon millions are waiting to be baptized, sealed, etc.  There is no possible way that we can even come close to doing the work for all spirits.  

[james12]

I admit that your question has been my question over the last little while. I have found at least a partial answer although I do not understand all of the intricacies and may not until after I lay aside this mortal body, so I will hedge my answers with some qualifiers.

 

First, those in the spirit world are bound in spirit prison until they repent. I believe this is the door that allows a spirit to enter paradise. It is of course the same for us here. Until a person lives in accordance with eternal law they will find themselves bound by the power of the adversary. I am not yet convinced that they need someone to be baptized for them to be freed. Some authorities have indicated it is required others have not.

 

Now, we are told that ordinances must be received by one with a physical body. All those who have died have left their physical body and so cannot obtain the ordinances for themselves. But why then do they need ordinances and why is a physical body required? Truman G. Madsen once said:

  Quote

 

 

The privilege of attending the house of God is in effect to have our physical beings brought into harmony with our spirit personalities… President Lorenzo Snow [taught] that participating in the temple ceremonies is the only way that the knowledge locked in one’s spirit can become part of this flesh; thus occurs that inseparable union, that blending, which makes possible a celestial resurrection. It is as if, if I may mix the figure, we are given in the house of God a patriarchal blessing to every organ and attribute and power of our being, a blessing that is to be fulfilled in this world and the next....

In some way unknown to me, it appears temple ordinances allow the knowledge locked in our spirit to become part of our flesh. It is this union which will ultimately make possible the resurrection. When a spirit gains the knowledge and power to reunite with his flesh he will be resurrected. I believe this is the work of the temple. However, I do not know exactly how it is that my proxy work aids in this effort.

 

Poor answers I know. Maybe someone else has additional insight. 

[mordorbund]

My reading of that passage in 1 Peter pondered by President Joseph F. Smith means that souls are judged based on what they did (or did not do) in mortality:

 

  Quote

 

 

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)

 

They are judged according to men in the flesh, so the judging angels open the earthly records to see if the person was baptized. If there is no such record, then it never happened. The sealing power binds the record of the proxy ordinance across the veil to the initiate being judged so that there is, indeed, a record of the ordinance (see D&C 128:4-11).

[Just_A_Guy]

  On 10/7/2014 at 11:35 AM, pipeorgan said:

This has never made much sense to me.  Why would God make it so that spirits are limited without temple work being done by people on earth?  This would mean that millions upon millions are waiting to be baptized, sealed, etc.  There is no possible way that we can even come close to doing the work for all spirits.  

 

Define "we".  Temple work continues into the Millennium.  If you assume an average population of one hundred million temple-attending Mormons during the Millennium, and for each year of the Millennium the Church accomplishes temple work at the rate of just one set of proxy ordinances per member per year--that's one hundred billion individuals who have received their ordinances by proxy by the end of the Millennium; and that's roughly the same as the number of people some have estimated ever lived upon the earth.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[pipeorgan]

Why should they have to wait?  

[Just_A_Guy]

Why shouldn't they?  I must have missed the memo announcing that instant gratification is now a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?  :)

 

But, a little less flippantly:  We are told that angels will assist in the temple work in the Millennium; and one presumes that they would assist in letting mortals prioritize which spirits are ready to have their work done, versus which ones are not.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[pipeorgan]

It just seems like such an imperfect system.  Some might be waiting for thousands and thousands of years just because we have no record of them.  

[Guest]

  On 10/7/2014 at 5:40 PM, pipeorgan said:

It just seems like such an imperfect system.  Some might be waiting for thousands and thousands of years just because we have no record of them.  

 

It brings one to wonder why they were born thousands of years before the resurrection while some are born only a smidgen of time before the resurrection.  But it is the way of God that Adam be born long before Christ's atonement which is long before Joseph Smith was born and long before I am born which is long before the last spirit will be born.

 

God's ways are not our ways and God's time is not our time.  When we look at things of a spiritual nature, we are limited by our mortal understanding.  Therefore, faith is required in our line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept progression.  It is God's promise that all will be given the opportunity for baptism in due course.  Our progression continues regardless.

[Just_A_Guy]

  On 10/7/2014 at 5:40 PM, pipeorgan said:

It just seems like such an imperfect system.  Some might be waiting for thousands and thousands of years just because we have no record of them.  

 

Of course it is.  It's administered by humans--inspired humans, yes; but still humans; who are working within the confines of situations created by other humans.   The world itself was instituted by God, and is at times frighteningly, revoltingly imperfect--and for the same reason:  it's being run by humans. 

 

It would be a bit incongruous to (apparently) be OK with the vast amount of suffering in this world, but to latch on to the time departed spirits must wait before their temple work can be done as some sort of smoking-gun argument that God has no part in that work.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Leah]

  On 10/7/2014 at 5:40 PM, pipeorgan said:

It just seems like such an imperfect system.  Some might be waiting for thousands and thousands of years just because we have no record of them.

Relative to eternity, it's not so long. You're looking at it in mortal years.

Heavenly Father has a plan that is better than anything we could come up with. Just make sure you are doing your part by attending the temple frequently so that you can do your part to help those who are waiting.

[Palerider]

  On 10/7/2014 at 11:35 AM, pipeorgan said:

This has never made much sense to me.  Why would God make it so that spirits are limited without temple work being done by people on earth?  This would mean that millions upon millions are waiting to be baptized, sealed, etc.  There is no possible way that we can even come close to doing the work for all spirits.

I believe you may have answered my question I asked you in another thread

[drham3rd]

Actually it is the revelations of the proxy work for those who have died that attracted me to study LDS doctrine since I was always bothered by the notion that most Christian churches pronounce that unless you accept the Lord in this life, you are condemned to hell!  Being able to offer salvation to those already dead makes so much sense when you look at the overall doctrine of the Gospel!  Accept this doctrine and do the work!  My wife and I have many names ready for temple work, enough to keep us busy for years to come!!

Edited October 8, 2014 by drham3rd

[The Folk Prophet]

Since when do we need to understand why God chooses to do things the way He does?

 

Isaiah 55:8-9

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

 

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

[Blackmarch]

  On 10/7/2014 at 11:35 AM, pipeorgan said:

This has never made much sense to me.  Why would God make it so that spirits are limited without temple work being done by people on earth?  This would mean that millions upon millions are waiting to be baptized, sealed, etc.  There is no possible way that we can even come close to doing the work for all spirits.  

because it is just, and that there are certain things only spirits can do and things only physical bodies can do.

now if you are asking why did God institute symbolical rites as a way to keep things organized and get things done, I don't know save for that when things are symbolical people can learn at their level without getting condemned for things they don't understand.

[Traveler]

  On 10/7/2014 at 11:35 AM, pipeorgan said:

This has never made much sense to me.  Why would God make it so that spirits are limited without temple work being done by people on earth?  This would mean that millions upon millions are waiting to be baptized, sealed, etc.  There is no possible way that we can even come close to doing the work for all spirits.  

 

The notion of proxy is very old and goes back to Old Testament sacrifices.  The very notion of Christ and a savior is deeply imbedded in the notion of proxy.   The idea of proxy is very much a part of human history as well as a part of law and the ideas of courts and judges as well as government agencies, police and other "first responders".  Without the notion of proxy you would not be able to write a check or use a credit card -- there would be no reason to put money in a bank or any other institution. 

 

The idea of proxy is so imbedded in human experience - I seriously wonder where you came up with the notion that the idea of proxy is not an absolute necessary for conducting any reasonable society or laws?

[Seminarysnoozer]

  On 10/7/2014 at 11:35 AM, pipeorgan said:

This has never made much sense to me.  Why would God make it so that spirits are limited without temple work being done by people on earth?  This would mean that millions upon millions are waiting to be baptized, sealed, etc.  There is no possible way that we can even come close to doing the work for all spirits.  

I think one has to think of this as being one of those things in which the means to the end is just as important as the end.  There is value in taking a name to the temple to do work for someone and the experiences gained by doing that act of service.  There is value to the person who receives the act of kindness as well more than would be there if it was as simple as crossing a name off a list somewhere.

 

There is value in doing things, that is one of the main lessons and tests of this life.  Will we do the things we are asked to do?   If all we had to do is say that we would do them if we had the chance then nobody would move onto the second estate test, the test of actually doing the things we said we would.  If all we had to do is proclaim that we believe and would follow Christ and His teachings no matter what then this whole thing would have ended at the first estate test as we all believed and said we would do those things.  So, doing is different than saying you would do it.  It is a test of integrity with addional refinement and appreciation for the value of the blessings by actually having the experience for both the doer and the receiver.

[Sunday21]

In part, the requirement to perform a service for others allows us to emulate, in a small way, what Christ did for us through the atonement

[bytebear]

It's not just for their salvation. There is some connection in redeeming our ancestors that is necessary for us to fulfill our potential. 

 

http://scottwoodward.org/redeemingthedead_wecannotbeperfectedwithoutdead.html

 

We save ourselves by saving them. Perhaps it's God's way of letting us share in the salvation of others, just as he lets us share in procreation.

[ztodd]

I'm surprised no one mentioned yet- or maybe i missed it- it has a lot to do with this -

 

Malachi 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

Think about how family-focused this church is, and why it is.  Think about what heaven is and will be, and what role families will play in that.

[spamlds]

Here are two excellent sources about why we do work for the dead and what the expectations are in terms of completion..

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-35?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-36?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-41?lang=eng

 

Regarding the nature of proxy ordinances, the entire gospel is filled with them, from the offering of animals as a sacrifice to the sacrament--emblems which point to the ultimate Proxy--Jesus himself.

 

I would not be too doubtful about our ability to complete task by the end of the Millennium.  In less than 200 years, we have accumulated the records of probably about 80 billion people.  If you consider the demographics of starting with two people, a population that increased until the flood, and then drastically decreased after that event, then another great destruction that will reduce population significantly at the end of this dispensation, you can figure that we've already made a huge "dent" in the research.  During the Millennium, the veil will be open.  The resurrection will open the doors for people who were on the other side of the veil to provide information about those desiring ordinances.  There will be thousands of temples during the thousand years.  When I look at how much we've done in less than 200 years, I marvel at it.  In a thousand years, with all the divine help that will be available in the Millennium, I have no doubt that it can be achieved.

Edited October 10, 2014 by spamlds

[Joyful]

Here is a passage from the "Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple" manual that may provide yet another perspective. It is speaking about sealings, but I think it can be applied to all ordinances performed in the temple.

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/preparing-to-enter-the-holy-temple/preparing-to-enter-the-holy-temple

 

"It is a generous Lord who has authorized us to do this. On these occasions, when we are not so personally involved, we may listen carefully to the words of the ordinance. Similarly, of course, by returning frequently to officiate for those who have passed on, we may refresh the mind and the spirit on the endowment experience." (p. 16)

 

So there are many reasons, but this passage highlights that it is for us, for our benefit because God is such a loving and generous God. Having the opportunity helps me remember my covenants, because I'm such a forgetful being. This is such a sacred thing, and I'm so grateful that the Lord is letting me do that. This is a family-oriented gospel. We need each other.