A controversial topic, to make MoE happy :)

[Just_A_Guy]

Point:

 

Yes, I think corruption is accelerating, and what's in store for even the near future is beyond what we would have imagined in even the past few decades.

 

Counterpoint:

 

 

It's funny you say that, because I see far more good in the world today than I see wickedness.  In fact, I don't think the world has ever been as wonderful as it is now.

 

Discuss.  :)

[Backroads]

I mind the true open-mindedness of our culture (not the horrible accept me stuff tagged as open-mindedness) very refreshing.

[jerome1232]

Honestly I'd say the answer is yes.

On the one hand, the world collectively is less violent and more accepting than ever before.

On the other hand, we are becoming accepting of some morally disgusting behavior, God is becoming increasingly mocked, shunned, and ignored. His word is becoming increasingly perverted by faiths.

Edited October 22, 2014 by jerome1232

[kapikui]

Why are the two statements mutually exclusive?  There is greater good going on now than there ever has been.  There is also greater evil happening now than ever before, and thus was it prophesied.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think the so-called more good in the world is by-and-large a facade.

[Guest]

There's not more or less of anything.  We just have the internet now.

[The Folk Prophet]

There's not more or less of anything.  We just have the internet now.

 

Really? There's the same amount of porn as there was in the 1800s?

[jerome1232]

Really? There's the same amount of porn as there was in the 1800s?

 

Could you prove there was less?

[Guest]

Really? There's the same amount of porn as there was in the 1800s?

 

They were called brothels or the upstairs of the saloon... no internet, see.

[The Folk Prophet]

They were called brothels or the upstairs of the saloon... no internet, see.

 

I'm having a hard time equating the number of men who visited brothels in ye olden day with the number of men addicted to porn in our day. Of course I don't have stats on the matter. But I think the idea that things are getting worse and worse is A. Obvious and B. Prophecy.

 

You may not see the obvious. But you must believe the prophecies, surely.

[Guest]

I'm having a hard time equating the number of men who visited brothels in ye olden day with the number of men addicted to porn in our day. Of course I don't have stats on the matter. But I think the idea that things are getting worse and worse is A. Obvious and B. Prophecy.

 

You may not see the obvious. But you must believe the prophecies, surely.

 

There wasn't 350 million population in the USA in 1800...

 

Yes, I believe the prophecies.  No, I don't pretend to venture to make even one guess as to when that prophecy is going to be/is getting fulfilled.  I leave that to lds2...

Edited October 22, 2014 by anatess

[carlimac]

I'm curious as to what the "good" is that MOE sees.  It just might be that ole bugaboo problem of calling evil good and good evil. 

[PolarVortex]

Well, all this talk about pornography is very enriching, but I would argue that greater forces are at work here.

 

Europeans in 1905 during the Belle Epoque were wildly optimistic about their future.  Scientific discoveries were falling out of the sky like hailstones, Europe was at peace, national economies were expanding, democracies flourished, and the arts were generating masterpiece after masterpiece in poetry, literature, painting, and music.  (Most importantly, email would not be invented for another sixty years.)

 

Forty years later, Europe lay in ruins, tens of millions of people had been killed from war or genocide, humanity had used nuclear weapons against itself, and Communism was preparing to spread poverty and terror across a third of the planet.

 

Predictions are hard.  The more I contemplate it, the more I agree with that old saying: "The future isn't what it used to be."

[The Folk Prophet]

There wasn't 350 million population in the USA in 1800...

 

Yes, I believe the prophecies.  No, I don't pretend to venture to make even one guess as to when that prophecy is going to be/is getting fulfilled.  I leave that to lds2...

 

Okay...so what about the myriad of conference talks/comments speaking about how evil is getting worse and worse and that it would continue to do so until the end. Particularly in the 70s there was a lot of this.

 

I"m not just trying to debate. I think it moderately un-provable. But I am quite curious how anyone cannot see that the world is getting more and more wicked by the year.

 

Moreover...per "we just have the internet now" -- seems to drive the point, not diminish it. The means whereby the wickedness is driven is irrelevant, except in that it is driven with greater and greater ease. The internet, and like mediums, allows for the wickedness to spread. Media, in general, has significantly spread wickedness, and brought it to a common place level of acceptance in the world.

 

Sure, society has also driven good things. And I suspect this is what MoE sees. And there is some validity to it. Certain levels of respect for life, liberty, etc., are higher than they have been historically. This has been driven by the media as well. So not all is evil. But, like I said, I think a lot of this is a facade driven by pride and arrogance rather than true compassion and love. Not all...of course. There are a great many good people in the world. But the wickedness, in general, is quite obviously (to me) increasing as the world stumbles along closer and closer to the end.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just for pondering as we discuss - from The Family -- A Proclamation to the World:

 

"Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

[RMGuy]

I have to go with the world is a better place now than at any time in recorded history. Yes, there are issues. Clearly there is evil. Yet, would anyone really want to live at another time in history.

We have better opportunities. Less disease. Less slavery, oppression, and death.

While we hear about bad things happening it is easy to lose sight of the good around us. If we think life was somehow better historically, we need to o more study of history.

[carlimac]

 Yet, would anyone really want to live at another time in history.

 

I can think of some times I would rather have lived. It would have been nice to be a teen in the 50s and and adult in the 60s-90s. Those were more pleasant times.     I also think I would have made a good pioneer. Living just after the establishment of the Salt Lake valley in the later 1800s into the early 1900s would have been a good time to live.

[The Folk Prophet]

I have to go with the world is a better place now than at any time in recorded history. Yes, there are issues. Clearly there is evil. Yet, would anyone really want to live at another time in history.

We have better opportunities. Less disease. Less slavery, oppression, and death.

While we hear about bad things happening it is easy to lose sight of the good around us. If we think life was somehow better historically, we need to o more study of history.

 

Well, better...yes. But equating the existence of electricity and medicine to less evil is incongruent.

Edited October 22, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

Shakespeare said something along the line "Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so."

 

 

However from my own experience - growing up in the 50's and 60's - the times have changed:

 

Much more divorce

Children being raised by single parents - mostly women (much less physical discipline).

Poverty has moved from scattered isolated rural areas to centralized in the inner city

Dependencies (especially on Government programs)

LDS Church membership - from less than 2 million to over 15 million  -  and the membership is much more diverse

More access to information and data - and an increase in ignorance. 

More $$$$ spent on entertainment.

moral blurring of male and female roles

diminishing middle class

much more regulation.

Value of children has moved from assets to liabilities - result is significantly fewer children per house hold.

diminished social value of teachers

diminished social value of outdoor skills especially for youth and increase (dependency) in gadget skills.

Dating culture and education for youth - LDS stake dances.  (a highlight of my youth was going to stake dances while on vacation and away from home)

 

And this last observation concerns me the most - social disrespect for moral standards and social disrespect of intelligence (in particular the degrading use of the term "nerd")

[The Folk Prophet]

Traveler, I'd say your list is only the start of a much, much longer list. :)

[RMGuy]

 Living just after the establishment of the Salt Lake valley in the later 1800s into the early 1900s would have been a good time to live.

 

Yes.  Living in a time when at least one state issues an extermination order against you based on your religion, the federal government sends an army to your door based on rumors and heresay, the Irish starving, spiritualism and seance sweeping the US, rampant Cholera - typhus - tuberculosis, Astor Place riots, passage of the fugitive slave act, Dred Scott decision, Civil War, Excessive poverty, work houses, Edmunds-Tucker act and church disenfranchised, syphillis hits its all time peak, whiskey ring bribery, Sumner caning, Philip Key killing, the Wounded Knee murders, Sage dynamite attack, The homestead steel strike, mountain meadows, and of course we could go on.  Yes, that sounds like a wonderful time to live.  

Shakespeare said something along the line "Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so."

 

 

However from my own experience - growing up in the 50's and 60's - the times have changed:

 

Much more divorce

Children being raised by single parents - mostly women (much less physical discipline).

Poverty has moved from scattered isolated rural areas to centralized in the inner city

Dependencies (especially on Government programs)

LDS Church membership - from less than 2 million to over 15 million  -  and the membership is much more diverse

More access to information and data - and an increase in ignorance. 

More $$$$ spent on entertainment.

moral blurring of male and female roles

diminishing middle class

much more regulation.

Value of children has moved from assets to liabilities - result is significantly fewer children per house hold.

diminished social value of teachers

diminished social value of outdoor skills especially for youth and increase (dependency) in gadget skills.

Dating culture and education for youth - LDS stake dances.  (a highlight of my youth was going to stake dances while on vacation and away from home)

 

And this last observation concerns me the most - social disrespect for moral standards and social disrespect of intelligence (in particular the degrading use of the term "nerd")

I'll respond line by line if I may:

Is more divorce a good thing or a bad thing?  Better to stay in abusive relationships?  

You see physical discipline of children as a good thing?

I'm not sure that your poverty demographics are accurate.  Poverty was rampant in inner cities throughout history.

Church membership increase and diversity is a good thing is it not? 

Access to information is a good thing, I don't know that we have increased ignorance.  

$$ spent on entertainment could be better spend elsewhere, no question.  

Why do we have specific roles for genders anyway?  My daughters are just as capable as my son and vice-versa.

Is class a good thing?

Really?  Have you read the Elizabethan sumptuary laws.  Now there is regulation for you.  

I don't see children as assets or liabilities.  I see them as people.  

This is clearly a bad thing, if you agree with what is being taught.  

Yep.

Not sure the intent here with dating and dances.  

Yes, we deride "nerds" yet nearly worship their creations.  An interesting dichotomy.  

[The Folk Prophet]

Is more divorce a good thing or a bad thing?  Better to stay in abusive relationships?  

 

The cause of divorce is irrelevant to whether higher divorce rates is good or bad. It's bad. The cause enhances the bad. There shouldn't be abusive relationships. Sure, divorce is the lesser of two bads in that case. Definitely. But either way...higher divorce rates is entirely valid as an indicator of things worsening in society.

 

Why do we have specific roles for genders anyway?

 

Um...because of all that stuff the church teaches about why.

[carlimac]

Yes.  Living in a time when at least one state issues an extermination order against you based on your religion, the federal government sends an army to your door based on rumors and heresay, the Irish starving, spiritualism and seance sweeping the US, rampant Cholera - typhus - tuberculosis, Astor Place riots, passage of the fugitive slave act, Dred Scott decision, Civil War, Excessive poverty, work houses, Edmunds-Tucker act and church disenfranchised, syphillis hits its all time peak, whiskey ring bribery, Sumner caning, Philip Key killing, the Wounded Knee murders, Sage dynamite attack, The homestead steel strike, mountain meadows, and of course we could go on.  Yes, that sounds like a wonderful time to live.  

 

 

 

But I wouldn't have known about most of that because there was no internet. If I ever did become aware of it, it would have been long over with.

[Maureen]

...And this last observation concerns me the most...social disrespect of intelligence (in particular the degrading use of the term "nerd")

 

IMO, this is changing due to The Big Bang Theory; nerds are admired and revered. :)

 

M.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Maureen

[The Folk Prophet]

IMO, this is changing due to The Big Bang Theory; nerds are admired and revered. :)

 

M.

 

Nah, nerds have been admired for years before that. Ever since they took over cooperate America.