Shaken Faith Syndrome - What brings it on

[The Folk Prophet]

They have this ability to take things by faith even if it doesn't make sense at the time and stick with it until it does make sense.  So the faith-shaking doesn't really happen much - they hold strong to the rod.

 

I like what you said. And this has already been said, but it's a theme I'd like to see developed, so I'm repeating. It's hard to validate this, but I think putting it in terms of "this ability" is, perhaps, downplaying the choice.

 

At the risk of offending someone (because it can get touchy) I'll talk about it in terms of fitness -- something I am very big on. I go to a work party and they serve pizza and donuts. I do not partake. Others (with body sizes similar to what I had before getting into fitness) chow down on the pizza and donuts and then make comments about how they wish they had the self discipline I had. Like it's inherent. Like I'm just lucky that way.

 

Bull-freakin'-oney!!  It makes me so mad. If they only knew how ridiculously difficult it was. It is a choice. Plain and simple. And anyone wishing to be more fit can make the same choice and keep the pizza and donuts out of their mouths.

 

Sure, there's variable to people's will-power. And some of that is natural. Some of it is learned. Some people just don't like pizza and donuts as much. But it still comes down to the same thing. Choice.

[Crypto]

I like a lot of what you say. But I cannot get on board with the victim thing. It denies agency.

 

No one who loses their salvation will be victims of it. They will choose it.

 

Maybe you are right.

I don't think they are necessarily mutually exclusive though. Agency and being a victim.

 

In Shakespeare's play Othello, Iago tricks Othello into thinking his wife Desdemona cheated on him. Othello was a victim of Iago's trickery. It didn't justify Othello in murdering his wife.

 

Being deceived doesn't justify Othello's decision to murder his wife, the same way being deceived doesn't justify denying the promptings of the spirit.

 

Not all people have had a chance to exercise agency*, In learning and accepting the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It's why temples exist, and the plan of salvation includes more than just time here on earth. It's also why God will judge the hearts of men. Something might also be said about acting under an imperfect knowledge and lesser condemnation.

I could be completely wrong about this though.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Crypto

[The Folk Prophet]

I don't think they are necessarily mutually exclusive though. Agency and being a victim.

 

Only mutually exclusive in terms of salvation and choosing it. Not in terms of other instances of being a victim. Being a victim does not remove our agency. Or, at least, if somehow it does (literal brainwashing or something) then we are not accountable.

 

What I'm kicking against is the idea that some people are just less inclined to have faith....like they just weren't as blessed...it wasn't their fault, etc....

[Crypto]

 

Beware the Theologian, lest he ruins your faith.

Umm why do I get the feeling this was targeted at me? Or was it pointing towards a way of losing faith?

Edited November 26, 2014 by Crypto

[Crypto]

Only mutually exclusive in terms of salvation and choosing it. Not in terms of other instances of being a victim. 

If that is the case, then I think we are in agreement, and are expressing similar ideas differently.

[Jane_Doe]

I think in many ways shaken-faith-sydrome resembles depression.  There are many causes and it can happen to anyone.  Usually it starts with something in your world falling apart, bringing on great sadness and confusion.  You get angry, stomp your foot, and demand to know "why".  You feel victimized- how could this happen to me?  How did I get here?  Why didn't I see this earlier?  Who's fault is it?  How dare this situation betray me!?  I feel so hurt... so alone... 

 

Coming out of shaken-faith-sydrome resembles coming out of depression.  You have to admit it's there, to quit denying that your foundation has been cracked.  Don't try to navigate out of the fog solo: seek help from friends, family, counselors in that area, and of course the Lord.  You need to re-find your center, and build up from there.  Frequently we must admit that we had unrealistic expectations in some areas/people/ourselves.  Because of this re-viewing and re-learning are critical parts of re-building.  For both depression and shaken-faith, this re-growth is something which cannot be rushed, anymore than a toddler's first steps.  

Edited November 26, 2014 by Jane_Doe

[Maureen]

I like what you said. And this has already been said, but it's a theme I'd like to see developed, so I'm repeating. It's hard to validate this, but I think putting it in terms of "this ability" is, perhaps, downplaying the choice.

 

At the risk of offending someone (because it can get touchy) I'll talk about it in terms of fitness -- something I am very big on. I go to a work party and they serve pizza and donuts. I do not partake. Others (with body sizes similar to what I had before getting into fitness) chow down on the pizza and donuts and then make comments about how they wish they had the self discipline I had. Like it's inherent. Like I'm just lucky that way.

 

Bull-freakin'-oney!!  It makes me so mad. If they only knew how ridiculously difficult it was. It is a choice. Plain and simple. And anyone wishing to be more fit can make the same choice and keep the pizza and donuts out of their mouths.

 

Sure, there's variable to people's will-power. And some of that is natural. Some of it is learned. Some people just don't like pizza and donuts as much. But it still comes down to the same thing. Choice.

 

This may seem beside the point you're trying to make about choosing faith but; if they understand that some choices are made because of self discipline, then why get mad at them? They have chosen to not practice self discipline because they know it is difficult. Why get mad at all, especially if you've made these choices for your own benefit. We all have the ability to choose for ourselves and to let others choose for themselves.

 

M.

[Jane_Doe]

 

What I'm kicking against is the idea that some people are just less inclined to have faith....like they just weren't as blessed...it wasn't their fault, etc....

 

I refer to the parable of the sower: seeds which are planted in bare ground or in weeds are more likely to be snuffed out.  This is just a fact.  However, this does not remove agency. 

 

TFP, do you know what in nature makes a patch of land fertile?  What transforms barren rock into lush fertile soil?  It is the plants themselves: they break up the harsh ground, bring nutrients, and literally transform sunlight into the marvelous world around us.  It doesn't take much: in the high mountains you can find entire forests which were founded because one little seedling made it through those first harsh winters.

 

(Sorry, for the dorky reference, I'm a botanist in real life and see the work of God so manifest in nature)

Edited November 26, 2014 by Jane_Doe

[Crypto]

I think in many ways shaken-faith-sydrome resembles depression. ....with something in your world falling apart, bringing on great sadness and confusion.  .... I feel to hurt... so alone... 

 

All this time i've been thinking of shaken faith as purely intellectual! I can't believe I haven't even thought about it from an emotional point of view  ! Quite enlightening. 

[Jane_Doe]

This may seem beside the point you're trying to make about choosing faith but; if they understand that some choices are made because of self discipline, then why get mad at them? They have chosen to not practice self discipline because they know it is difficult. Why get mad at all, especially if you've made these choices for your own benefit. We all have the ability to choose for ourselves and to let others choose for themselves.

 

M.

 

I think that TFP's point is that nurturing faith is a choice.  I don't think his point is judging those who don't make that choice.

[Jane_Doe]

All this time i've been thinking of shaken faith as purely intellectual! I can't believe I haven't even thought about it from an emotional point of view  ! Quite enlightening. 

 

Faith is giving your heart, mind, and soul to God.  Have that shaken rocks the *very core* of who you are as a person.

[Maureen]

I think that TFP's point is that nurturing faith is a choice.  I don't think his point is judging those who don't make that choice.

 

My point was, why get mad at people because they may not understand your choice. So what if your choice is difficult; you've made it because you think it's good for you. What does it matter to you that others make different choices. Their choices don't interfere with yours.

 

M. 

[The Folk Prophet]

This may seem beside the point you're trying to make about choosing faith but; if they understand that some choices are made because of self discipline, then why get mad at them? They have chosen to not practice self discipline because they know it is difficult. Why get mad at all, especially if you've made these choices for your own benefit. We all have the ability to choose for ourselves and to let others choose for themselves.

 

M.

 

The part that makes me mad (and I was exaggerating a bit. I don't really get "mad" mad), is their saying that it must be easier for me and the reason they fail is because it's just too hard for them. It's insulting. The effort it takes for me to control my eating is MAMMOTH. I'm sitting there secretly suffering for a choice I made and they're saying, "Oh...you just have the gift." I don't have the gift. I chose. I work. I struggle. I fight. Just like anyone has to.

[The Folk Prophet]

My point was, why get mad at people because they may not understand your choice. So what if your choice is difficult; you've made it because you think it's good for you. What does it matter to you that others make different choices. Their choices don't interfere with yours.

 

M. 

 

They perfectly well understand. And I could care less about the eating choices they make. That is entirely besides the point.

[The Folk Prophet]

All this time i've been thinking of shaken faith as purely intellectual! I can't believe I haven't even thought about it from an emotional point of view  ! Quite enlightening. 

 

I don't think shaken faith is emotional or intellectual, personally. I think both of those are catalysts and reactions, to one degree or another.

 

I refer to the parable of the sower: seeds which are planted in bare ground or in weeds are more likely to be snuffed out.  This is just a fact.  However, this does not remove agency. 

 

TFP, do you know what in nature makes a patch of land fertile?  What transforms barren rock into lush fertile soil?  It is the plants themselves: they break up the harsh ground, bring nutrients, and literally transform sunlight into the marvelous world around us.  It doesn't take much: in the high mountains you can find entire forests which were founded because one little seedling made it through those first harsh winters.

 

(Sorry, for the dorky reference, I'm a botanist in real life and see the work of God so manifest in nature)

 

I don't understand how this parable applies. You seem to be using the seed to represent us. That has never been my read. The seeds represent the truth, light, and knowledge. The representation for us is the ground. We can be barren ground or we can be fertile ground. And that, I maintain, is an absolute choice.

[Jane_Doe]

I don't think shaken faith is emotional or intellectual, personally. I think both of those are catalysts and reactions, to one degree or another.

 

 

I don't understand how this parable applies. You seem to be using the seed to represent us. That has never been my read. The seeds represent the truth, light, and knowledge. The representation for us is the ground. We can be barren ground or we can be fertile ground. And that, I maintain, is an absolute choice.

 

The ground (us) can be transformed from a barren waste to a fertile paradise by the presence of the seed (truth/light/knowledge).

[The Folk Prophet]

The ground (us) can be transformed from a barren waste to a fertile paradise by the presence of the seed (truth/light/knowledge).

 

Agreed. If we choose to accept the seed. Still going with choice though.

[Guest]

Sure, there's variable to people's will-power. And some of that is natural. Some of it is learned. Some people just don't like pizza and donuts as much. But it still comes down to the same thing. Choice.

 

Everything comes down to Choice.  That's a given.  What makes God is their perfect unity of Will - which precludes that that Will was arrived at freely and it is this Choice that made them God.

 

But, Choice did not start in mortality.  Just like others are born in the caves of the Himalayas without ever having heard of the word Jesus from birth until death, others are born in the covenant and taught the full gospel daily since birth.  I do not believe that this occurs by chance.  Rather, I believe that this occurs from Pre-Mortal Choice.  So the exercise of Choice is applied differently.

 

In the same manner, that Pre-Mortal Choice may also have influenced the characteristics we are born with.  Others are more prone to cerebral pursuits and it is in these cerebral studies that they either find God or lose God while others are more prone to emotional pursuits and it is in these emotional experiences that they either find God or lose God.

 

Therefore, I believe that our specific and unique journey of Faith is predicated by Pre-Mortal choice and that it is specifically designed to give each of our individually unique Spirits equal opportunity for Exaltation.  As we only see the Mortality part of our Existence, it seems like some people's faiths are easier shaken than others... which one then concludes that it is simply due to mortal choices without considering the specific and unique challenge to the spirit brought on by pre-mortal choice.

 

Make sense?

[estradling75]

Lets take an scriptural example of Shaken Faith adverted and see what we might learn from it.

 

Let take Abraham.  According to the scriptures in his early days, Abraham was saved by an angel from being offered as a human sacrifice to false gods.  Overtime he learned and grew in faith until he received promise of great blessing personally and through his seed.  Which seed he did not at the time of the blessing pronouncement have.  Then the lord blessed Abraham and his wife with Issac.  

 

Clearly Abraham is doing well for himself and has every reason to think his faith is strong and unshakable...    But we all know what the scriptures say happened next.

 

God commanded Abraham to offer up Issac as a human sacrifice to the Lord.

 

Think about how out of no where that seems.  I am highly confident that if someone came on this forum and told us that God commanded them to offer up a human sacrifice that the forum would quickly denounce any such action and make the case that God will not ever tell us to ritually sacrifice another person.  Abraham lived and saw the horrors of such actions first hand, I dare say he knew how horrible it was in a way we can only guess and assume at.

 

This is the perfect receipt for shaken faith.  Not only was God apparently asking Abraham to do something Abraham could reasonably expect that God would/should never ask for, he was also asking him to destroy the path of many of the great blessing that the Lord had promised he would have through Issac.  I would imagine many of those that experience shaken faith have similar thoughts (God asking for something they never thought he would or to take actions that appear to deny us the promised blessing)

 

So how did Abraham get through this?  Abraham had faith, not just belief version but trust in the Lord version.  And he was faithful, not just belief version but loyal to the Lord's commands version.  Abraham knew that if he just did what the Lord commanded that the Lord would take care of everything else.  That is how Abraham got through it, that I think is how each of us must get through it. 

 

Therefore I would say the choice to Trust and follow God no matter how he may lead us is the answer and it is what makes the difference.

[The Folk Prophet]

Therefore, I believe that our specific and unique journey of Faith is predicated by Pre-Mortal choice and that it is specifically designed to give each of our individually unique Spirits equal opportunity for Exaltation.  As we only see the Mortality part of our Existence, it seems like some people's faiths are easier shaken than others... which one then concludes that it is simply due to mortal choices without considering the specific and unique challenge to the spirit brought on by pre-mortal choice.

 

I agree with what you're saying. I believe that those who struggle more with faith struggle more because they are capable of struggling more and still making the ultimate choice for salvation if they so choose. Each of us has different challenges. But we can trust God that it will be fair.

 

What is not fair is for someone to be naturally predisposed to less faith, and thereby lose their salvation. There has got to be some level of balance to it. God knows us all and knows what we are capable of and tests us accordingly. And that test is fair. That, we can trust in.

 

But I believe that's what you are saying.

[The Folk Prophet]

Lets take an scriptural example of Shaken Faith adverted and see what we might learn from it.

 

Let take Abraham.  According to the scriptures in his early days, Abraham was saved by an angel from being offered as a human sacrifice to false gods.  Overtime he learned and grew in faith until he received promise of great blessing personally and through his seed.  Which seed he did not at the time of the blessing pronouncement have.  Then the lord blessed Abraham and his wife with Issac.  

 

Clearly Abraham is doing well for himself and has every reason to think his faith is strong and unshakable...    But we all know what the scriptures say happened next.

 

God commanded Abraham to offer up Issac as a human sacrifice to the Lord.

 

Think about how out of no where that seems.  I am highly confident that if someone came on this forum and told us that God commanded them to offer up a human sacrifice that the forum would quickly denounce any such action and make the case that God will not ever tell us to ritually sacrifice another person.  Abraham lived and saw the horrors of such actions first hand, I dare say he knew how horrible it was in a way we can only guess and assume at.

 

This is the perfect receipt for shaken faith.  Not only was God apparently asking Abraham to do something Abraham could reasonably expect that God would/should never ask for, he was also asking him to destroy the path of many of the great blessing that the Lord had promised he would have through Issac.  I would imagine many of those that experience shaken faith have similar thoughts (God asking for something they never thought he would or to take actions that appear to deny us the promised blessing)

 

So how did Abraham get through this?  Abraham had faith, not just belief version but trust in the Lord version.  And he was faithful, not just belief version but loyal to the Lord's commands version.  Abraham knew that if he just did what the Lord commanded that the Lord would take care of everything else.  That is how Abraham got through it, that I think is how each of us must get through it. 

 

Therefore I would say the choice to Trust and follow God no matter how he may lead us is the answer and it is what makes the difference.

 

Right on. I really like this. And I agree.

 

I think what is at the core (if a single thing can be defined as the core) of shaken faith syndrome is putting our expectations and understanding as reality. In other words: Pride. We have our thoughts, our ideas, our expectations, our feelings, our etc. And if something comes along that shatters that intellectually, emotionally, or otherwise, we crumble because we all struggle to humble ourselves and submit to God and His will, entirely putting aside ourselves.

 

Pride vs. Humility. That is a great take on it methinks.

[prisonchaplain]

As the resident non-LDS guy, I find this post fantastic!  It had not dawned on me that as disheartening as America's apparent moral decline is to us "religious right social conservative" Evangelicals, it must be doubly so for LDS.  And yet, the conclusion here is powerful--when in doubt cling to Jesus!  Someone else said we are to cling to the rod (of faith?  of God?  of righteousness?  -- probably all of these).

 

It is sad that amongst LDS, and indeed most Christian churches, the "inactives" are a majority.  Many of these would probably leave the faith, if push came to shove.  Since it doesn't, they remain, if "in name only."

 

Those who do leave tend towards "apatheism" (a cute term somone made up for those apathetic towards God and faith).  Some, embittered, go all the way into atheism.  Yet others veer towards other Christian traditions, or even towards other religions.

 

If we would take writesong's counsel, and when doubts come we would cling to Jesus, then the Holy Spirit would sustain us, and help us reach the place that our Father in heaven intends for us.  This reminds me of a youth chorus we used to sing:

 

I have decided to follow Jesus...no turning back, no turning back.

The cross before me, the world behind me...no turning back, no turning back

Though none go with me, still I will follow...no turning back, no turning back

 

Brethren and Sistren:

 

When I was twenty-one years old, as a convert to The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints, I was baptized on Saturday 06 May 1967.

 

Today, there have been so many changes in our Church (as in all other churches), that my personal faith is FREQUENTLY shaken to the very core by the pronouncements and/or actions emanating from Salt Lake City, Utah.

 

Indeed, my faith is further challenged by what has become of our beloved "Promised Land", the United States of America.

 

Unlike so many others, I do NOT separate Church and State, as within our unique religion, the miraculous history of the United States of America, along with our divinely inspired Constitution of the United States of America, and even the State of Israel, are inseparably intertwined with The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.

 

Thus, when there is corruption in one, there becomes corruption in all of those entities.

 

So, what do I do in this situation?

 

I turn to JOHN 6: 66 - 69, and follow the example of Peter.

 

Thank you.

[prisonchaplain]

As one who usually does not choose to forgo pizza and donuts, I think I know the answer.  We make these kind of comments about wishing we had the ability to do resist donuts as a means of deflecting our guilt at our own gluttony.  However, in the process, we make it sound like those who do resist, those who suffer abstinence of salty fatty pizza and sweet, gooey donuts, do so because somehow they were lucky enough to inherit the resistence.  We dismiss their effort, and pretend they just don't like pizza and donuts much.  That's got to be frustrating. 

 

This may seem beside the point you're trying to make about choosing faith but; if they understand that some choices are made because of self discipline, then why get mad at them? They have chosen to not practice self discipline because they know it is difficult. Why get mad at all, especially if you've made these choices for your own benefit. We all have the ability to choose for ourselves and to let others choose for themselves.

 

M.

[The Folk Prophet]

Someone else said we are to cling to the rod (of faith?  of God?  of righteousness?  -- probably all of these).

 

The iron rod (from Lehi's dream in the Book of Mormon) represents the word of God. So in LDS-speak, when we say hold or cling to the rod, that's what we mean.

[The Folk Prophet]

As one who usually does not choose to forgo pizza and donuts, I think I know the answer.  We make these kind of comments about wishing we had the ability to do resist donuts as a means of deflecting our guilt at our own gluttony.  However, in the process, we make it sound like those who do resist, those who suffer abstinence of salty fatty pizza and sweet, gooey donuts, do so because somehow they were lucky enough to inherit the resistence.  We dismiss their effort, and pretend they just don't like pizza and donuts much.  That's got to be frustrating. 

 

Why did this post make me hungry? :)