Question about Joseph Smith as future judge

[lonetree]

My question concerns something I heard from an LDS speaker when I was a new member, & was expressing some doubts about the Book Of Mormon; or perhaps the revealing of the Book.. and Joseph Smith's role.

 

Anyway, this is not so much about My thoughts as what that particular man said to me. He asked me: (paraphrasing from memory as far as able) If I were willing to face the prophet Joseph Smith on the day of Judgement, knowing that I had denied the Book Of Mormon as true and Smith as God's prophet. The idea was that Smith would somehow be a witness against me(for the prosecution so to speak). Anyway, it sent a shiver down my spine that morning.Not sure if it was the speaker's intent or not.

 

Now-at last- to my question. Is there a doctrine held by the Church that states the prophet will someday be a witness or even a kind of judge against those who deny the truth of the Book Of Mormon? Just curious.

Edited December 10, 2014 by lonetree

[estradling75]

Moroni thought so

 

Moroni 10

 27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?

[Guest intra]

Jesus says this: 

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.
(John 5:22-23) 

there is however a difference between one who gives testimony and bears witness, and one who sits in judgement. 

[Jane_Doe]

I believe that when we stand before the Judgement seat, we'll be evaluated by witness for ALL we've done: the thoughts, actions, and beliefs.  

 

In regards to beliefs: I think it is relevant whether or not we've had the chance to hear the Gospel of Christ.  I believe the messengers God sent to us will stand up say how the delivered God's word.  These messengers include the prophets (like Joseph Smith), but also our Grandmas who brought us to church, and the friend that grieved with us when we were hurting.  Now what we do with that Word is up to us.... 

 

As to the Judgement it: there is ONE Judge and His name is Jesus Christ.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Jane_Doe

[lonetree]

Moroni thought so

 

Moroni 10

 27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?

 

 Thank you. I am sure that this particular speaker did not cite anything, but it happened when I was in my 30s not now, and mis-remembering can be a funny thing. I shall look the passage up in context later. For now, this adds much to my understanding of Mormon doctrine. :)

[pam]

This is what gramps from Ask Gramps has to say:

 

http://askgramps.org/9855/will-we-be-judged-by-joseph-smith-in-the-final-judgement

[Just_A_Guy]

A more verbose version of Estradling's excellent response can be found here.

[jerome1232]

It's also pretty straightforwardly said by Christ that others will be assisting him with judgement. I've always understood it as a delegation of judgment.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/19.28?lang=eng#27
 

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It's also said Moses would witness against the Jews which accused Christ.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/5.45?lang=eng#44
 

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

 

[Traveler]

My question concerns something I heard from an LDS speaker when I was a new member, & was expressing some doubts about the Book Of Mormon; or perhaps the revealing of the Book.. and Joseph Smith's role.

 

Anyway, this is not so much about My thoughts as what that particular man said to me. He asked me: (paraphrasing from memory as far as able) If I were willing to face the prophet Joseph Smith on the day of Judgement, knowing that I had denied the Book Of Mormon as true and Smith as God's prophet. The idea was that Smith would somehow be a witness against me(for the prosecution so to speak). Anyway, it sent a shiver down my spine that morning.Not sure if it was the speaker's intent or not.

 

Now-at last- to my question. Is there a doctrine held by the Church that states the prophet will someday be a witness or even a kind of judge against those who deny the truth of the Book Of Mormon? Just curious.

 

The simple understanding is - that by which we judge will be the basis by which we are judged.  This is not a uncommon concept of justice - those sent by G-d will definitely play a role in how we are judged.  I would point out that it really does not matter what we believe - for example it does not matter if we believe the message of someone sent by G-d.  We are still accountable for the message. 

 

The problem is two fold - the first part of the problem is recognizing G-d and his appointed messengers.  The second problem is dealing with the message.  All this because we must deal with counterfeit messengers and messages.   Just as there are blessings for recognizing both the message and messengers - so also are there consequences for the failure to recognize the message and the messengers.

 

Jesus taught that there would be false teachers and that the recognizing such teachers is more important than the trying to search out the message.  The symbolism is in the concept of a Kingdom and how a kingdom is governed. 

[PolarVortex]

Hi lonetree,

 

I had a similar experience during my investigation period, which began several decades ago and in many senses continues right up through today, 18 years after my baptism.

 

Two anti-LDS persons had written something critical about the Church.  They mentioned Journal of Discourses, Volume VII, page 289, which I was able to find today after a wee bit o' digging:

 

"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith... every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport into their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are..."

 

And one assumes that this entrance doesn't have Global Entry.

 

In any case, those words kept me out of the Church for a long time.  But that was in an era when things couldn't be checked or explored online at the speed of light.  Many years later I read this on the Wikipedia article about the Journal of Discourses:

 

"It [the Journal of Discourses] included some doctrinal instruction but also practical teaching, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest. Questions have been raised about the accuracy of some transcriptions. Modern technology and processes were not available for verifying the accuracy of transcriptions, and some significant mistakes have been documented. The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine."

 

All which seems to support my former fiancée's summary of the 19th century in Utah: "Young should have been muzzled."

[lonetree]

The simple understanding is - that by which we judge will be the basis by which we are judged.  This is not a uncommon concept of justice - those sent by G-d will definitely play a role in how we are judged.  I would point out that it really does not matter what we believe - for example it does not matter if we believe the message of someone sent by G-d.  We are still accountable for the message. 

 

The problem is two fold - the first part of the problem is recognizing G-d and his appointed messengers.  The second problem is dealing with the message.  All this because we must deal with counterfeit messengers and messages.   Just as there are blessings for recognizing both the message and messengers - so also are there consequences for the failure to recognize the message and the messengers.

 

Jesus taught that there would be false teachers and that the recognizing such teachers is more important than the trying to search out the message.  The symbolism is in the concept of a Kingdom and how a kingdom is governed. 

 

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you're getting at here. If it does not matter if we believe the message, that drains the blood out of any concept of 'message'. I thought messages, and messengers called upon those addressed-to believe. Perhaps you meant 'whether' one believes.

 

I also don't see how there can be any recognition of false teachers without knowing ie 'searching out' the message. 

[Misshalfway]

I really hope that God will be the judge.  He knows me best. And frankly humans are kinda bad at this kind of stuff, even if they are trusted by God to do important stuff on earth.  If Father is who I go to now, who I bow before, who I counsel with.....He has to be the one that talks to me again after it's all over.  

[spamlds]

I think we judge ourselves, to an extent.  When we stand before Christ, we will be accountable for all the truth he has given us and what we did with it.  It doesn't matter if that truth came from Moses or Paul or Joseph Smith.  However, if we reject the truth from the prophet God has sent, we will find ourselves standing outside the light, ashamed to enter in.

 

Think of the Pharisees and scribes who, having accepted Moses, rejected Jesus and the apostles.  When they rejected the gospel, they rejected the saving ordinances.  They rejected the messengers and the warnings they brought from God.  For example, four years before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the priesthood officers in the Church were warned by angels and revelations to evacuate the Church to a nearby town called Pella.  Jesus had warned them that there would come a time when they would have to flee, but when the revelation came, it came to local Church leaders.  Those who didn't believe in Jesus or the apostles also disregarded the inspired warnings of the local Church leaders they appointed as shepherds over the flock.

 

When we stand before God in judgment, those who rejected Joseph Smith will have necessarily rejected the priesthood that was given to him.  They will have rejected ordinances of baptism by proper authority for the remission of sins--and their sins will not have been remitted.  They will have rejected the ordinances of the temple that would have sealed their families to them and qualified them for exaltation.

 

The judgment doesn't involve Joseph, Moses, or Peter judging individuals.  It involves God assessing whether or not they obeyed the gospel as it was preached to them by his servants.  Those who reject the voice of God through his servants reject the God who sent them.  They won't enter into his rest.  That's what the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are for.

Edited December 15, 2014 by spamlds

[The Folk Prophet]

I think we judge ourselves, to an extent. 

 

^ this. Judgement isn't going to be like going to court in mortality. We will all be perfectly conscious of our guilt and every knee shall bow, etc...

 

I somewhat wonder if "judgment" is more of a formality or even a priesthood ordinance of sorts. There will be no debate, no appeals, no clamoring, etc. We will be who we are and it will be obvious to all -- spoken from the rooftops, so to speak. There will be no consideration. It will not be necessary.

 

The formality of who judges who is more related, methinks, to the priesthood/patriarchal order. We will all stand as "judges" to those who came under our stewardship in this regard. As Joseph was the one who had these keys to that order restored, he stands at the head of this dispensation. But he also had those keys restored unto him by others who will preside over him in the "judgment" process.

[Still_Small_Voice]

It is true that the Twelve Apostles will assist in our judgment on that day.

 

"The Son [of God], in turn, will call upon others to assist in the Judgment. The Twelve who were with Him in His ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel (see Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). The twelve Nephite disciples will judge the Nephite and Lamanite people (see 1 Nephi 12:9–10; Mormon 3:18–19)."

 

Gospel Principles Manual, Chapter 46: The Final Judgment