The Second Civil War

[Anddenex]

I'm happy to see that someone grasps this. JAG, you have restored my faith in humanity.

 

I was able to grasp the concept being shared Vort.  This then should exponentially restore your faith in humanity.  Let me give you the math JAG^5 = 0.JAGfaithinhuminatiyrestoredJAG (line over the top of G).

[Just_A_Guy]

I am soooo confused right now . . .

[Anddenex]

I am soooo confused right now . . .

 

What? JAG, my math was perfectly sound.

[mirkwood]

I was able to grasp the concept being shared Vort.  This then should exponentially restore your faith in humanity.  Let me give you the math JAG^5 = 0.JAGfaithinhuminatiyrestoredJAG (line over the top of G).

 

 lol

[Average Joe]

So the prophet Joseph was wrong and the prophet Spencer W. Kimball continued in error in your view...

Joseph smith, Oliver cowardly, Spencer Kimball, and others we're not wrong, they were limited by their knowledge at the time.

 

I can’t argue genetics it’s not my field of expertise. In that I can only say I’ve read articles supporting a Middle Eastern gene group in the America’s. I think Vort and company has explained this better than I can.

 

The one thing I can say is this. I have concerns were science supplants faith. You say that Joseph Smith lacked knowledge. Here is something science can’t prove; Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son - not only this but the angel Moroni appeared to him. Do you believe this?

 

Moroni had lived in America some fifteen hundred years ago and was a prophet of God at that time. He and his father, Mormon, were historians of the people who formerly inhabited this land. They wrote the history of their nation, engraving it upon plates of gold.

 

Joseph Smith first saw the Gold Plates in 1823, but he was not allowed to extract them from the stone box where they lay. He returned to the location every year for several years, receiving instruction from Moroni.

 

It seems incredulous to me that, believing Moroni actually appeared to and instructed Joseph Smith, that he would not have explained the purpose of the golden plates and who they were meant for. I don’t think Joseph Smith lacked in knowledge in the least bit concerning who the Lamanites and their descendants were.

[omegaseamaster75]

All I know is that given that humans share something like 96% of their DNA (i.e. "genes") with chimpanzees, it seems sort of odd to argue that Lehi must not share any genes with Native Americans. 

 

And given that, assuming just three generations per century and not adjusting for intermarriage between family lines, a native American (or anyone else) living today would have two to the seventy-eighth power ancestors alive around 600 BC (that's 302,231,454,903,657,293,676,544 ancestors--a number that I believe is actually exponentially higher than the total number of humans who have ever lived on the earth)--why can't Lehi be one of those 302 million trillion theoretical ancestors from whom a Native American is descended?

 

Forgive me, but it's almost like you want the Book of Mormon to be historically flawed.

This is my point with the genetic mishmash we cannot claim for a certainty that Lehi is the genetic father of the Native American. In theory there can be genetic traces but we can't prove it so why make the statement of fact? Why tie it to prophecy?

 

My point is that we should focus on the doctrine of the book of Mormon and not make absurd statements that we cannot prove.

 

I don't want to BoM to be historically flawed, quite frankly it matters little to me what can or can't be proved by science by way of the BoM. What gets my goat is when a statement is made and accepted as fact when it is no such thing. This is most dangerous of all. 

[omegaseamaster75]

Okay, omegaseamaster75. Time to demonstrate your iron grasp of the subject.

 

Lehi came to the Americas about 2600 years ago. Let us assume his descendants mixed with the local existing aboriginal populations. Please explain what genetic markers, exactly, we should look for and realistically expect to find in order to establish Lehi's existence.

 

Clearly, there are any number of markers that, if they were to show up, might cause us to do a double-take and say, "Wow! Looks like Jewish blood!" But that is not the question. The question is: If a small group of undefined ancestry mixed in with a large existing group 2600 years ago, what markers should we EXPECT to find from said small group?

VORT you are so much smarter than me....

 

If it can't be proven that Lehi not is the  father of the native American peoples, can it be proven that he is?

 

Unlikely, so lets just stop saying that he is.

Edited June 4, 2015 by omegaseamaster75

[omegaseamaster75]

The one thing I can say is this. I have concerns were science supplants faith. You say that Joseph Smith lacked knowledge. Here is something science can’t prove; Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son - not only this but the angel Moroni appeared to him. Do you believe this?

 

Of course I believe this

Moroni had lived in America some fifteen hundred years ago and was a prophet of God at that time. He and his father, Mormon, were historians of the people who formerly inhabited this land. They wrote the history of their nation, engraving it upon plates of gold.

 

You don't know that Moroni lived in America ( I am assuming that you mean N. America) and if you do mean N. America that is simply untrue.  He certainly traveled here but we can't prove that he lived here at all other than in passing of which there is no trace.

It seems incredulous to me that, believing Moroni actually appeared to and instructed Joseph Smith, that he would not have explained the purpose of the golden plates and who they were meant for. I don’t think Joseph Smith lacked in knowledge in the least bit concerning who the Lamanites and their descendants were.

Joseph the Prophet was also a man, limited by his understanding of his world at his time.

[The Folk Prophet]

VORT you are so much smarter than me....

 

If it can't be proven that Lehi not is the  father of the native American peoples, can it be proven that he is?

 

Unlikely, so lets just stop saying that he is.

 

No one here, as near as I can tell, is saying that he "is". They're saying that he could be one of the fathers -- or moreover, contrarily to what you have said, that it is not "genetically disproven".

[omegaseamaster75]

 

Who are the Lord's people who are a remnant of Jacob? Native Americans and Hispanic Americans, the descendants of the Lamanites. So when you watch or read the news about open borders what you are witnessing is the the unfolding of prophesy - the remnant of Jacob who the Lord is placing in the midst of the Gentiles, who as the chapter heading states: have been established as a free people in America...Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles [Americans] except they repent. 

 

Average Joe said Native Americans and Hispanic Americans are Lamanites

[estradling75]

VORT you are so much smarter than me....

 

If it can't be proven that Lehi not is the  father of the native American peoples, can it be proven that he is?

 

Unlikely, so lets just stop saying that he is.

 

Proof that would require having Lehi DNA and then being able to find signs of it now.  We will never have proof.  However if you believe that Lehi existed and he had kids and his descendants were traceable from at least a thousand years (600 BC to 400 AD) (basic an simple Book of Mormon claim) And then you take into account JAG's math.    

 

Well that is supporting evidence for opinion that Lehi is "an" ancestral father.  To support the opinion that he is not, you either have to show that Lehi and his family line did not exist (deny the book of Mormon) or find the fault in JAG's math.

 

Otherwise you opinion unsupported and unconvincing.  

[omegaseamaster75]

I do not deny that he is 'an' ancestral father, my issue is that Native Americans, and central and south Americans are categorized as the Lamanites as a group when in fact we most certainly cannot prove that they are, and many are not.

[estradling75]

I do not deny that he is 'an' ancestral father, my issue is that Native Americans, and central and south Americans are categorized as the Lamanites as a group when in fact we most certainly cannot prove that they are, and many are not.

 

So you accept the Genetic possibility... what else is required to be called a Lamanite?  A state of apostasy from the word of God.  What else do you need to see?  What is your definition of Lamanite?

[Just_A_Guy]

This is my point with the genetic mishmash we cannot claim for a certainty that Lehi is the genetic father of the Native American. In theory there can be genetic traces but we can't prove it so why make the statement of fact? Why tie it to prophecy?

 

My point is that we should focus on the doctrine of the book of Mormon and not make absurd statements that we cannot prove.

 

I don't want to BoM to be historically flawed, quite frankly it matters little to me what can or can't be proved by science by way of the BoM. What gets my goat is when a statement is made and accepted as fact when it is no such thing. This is most dangerous of all. 

 

I do not deny that he is 'an' ancestral father, my issue is that Native Americans, and central and south Americans are categorized as the Lamanites as a group when in fact we most certainly cannot prove that they are, and many are not.

 

I appreciate the clarifications.  What I have trouble understanding, though, is--given the Book of Mormon's own prophecies about the future of Lehi's descendants (including how they will interact with the people called the "gentiles"--commonly understood to be those of European ancestry), and given that modern LDS prophets have identified groups with some degree of Lamanite ancestry--whence comes this desire to say "no, it's not them!" every time some degree of Lamanite ancestry is suggested for a particular group?

 

If Lehi has living descendants today, and they don't live in South America, and they don't live in North America and they don't live in Hawaii or Polynesia--then, where exactly do they live?

[mdfxdb]

Proof that would require having Lehi DNA and then being able to find signs of it now.  We will never have proof.  However if you believe that Lehi existed and he had kids and his descendants were traceable from at least a thousand years (600 BC to 400 AD) (basic an simple Book of Mormon claim) And then you take into account JAG's math.    

 

Well that is supporting evidence for opinion that Lehi is "an" ancestral father.  To support the opinion that he is not, you either have to show that Lehi and his family line did not exist (deny the book of Mormon) or find the fault in JAG's math.

 

Otherwise you opinion unsupported and unconvincing.  

 

It may be possible that Lehi is "an" ancestral father.  But we do not know that he is an ancestral father of native americans, north, or central, or south for that matter.  Where did he land?  How far reaching / prolific were the nephites/lamanties we actually read about in the Book of Mormon.  How much did they really interact with other populations that may have been around?

 

It is completely unconvincing to say that Lehi is an ancestral father to the native american Indian.  We simply do not know enough about him or what he did, or where he lived.  He may be an ancestral father, but then again he may not.

[Just_A_Guy]

It may be possible that Lehi is "an" ancestral father.  But we do not know that he is an ancestral father of native americans, north, or central, or south for that matter.  Where did he land?  How far reaching / prolific were the nephites/lamanties we actually read about in the Book of Mormon.  How much did they really interact with other populations that may have been around?

 

It is completely unconvincing to say that Lehi is an ancestral father to the native american Indian.  We simply do not know enough about him or what he did, or where he lived.  He may be an ancestral father, but then again he may not.

 

Sincere question here:  Is there anthropological precedent for groups coexisting on a contiguous land mass for two and a half millennia without ever intermarrying?  Can we prove that ancient Egyptians never--not even once--shared genetic material with indigenous Africans who had lived--say--within the boundaries of modern-day Ivory Coast or Botswana?  Can we say that residents of post-Roman Gaul had absolutely no common genetic markers with Assyrians or Mongolians who lived the time of Moses?

Edited June 4, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[omegaseamaster75]

I appreciate the clarifications.  What I have trouble understanding, though, is--given the Book of Mormon's own prophecies about the future of Lehi's descendants (including how they will interact with the people called the "gentiles"--commonly understood to be those of European ancestry), and given that modern LDS prophets have identified groups with some degree of Lamanite ancestry--whence comes this desire to say "no, it's not them!" every time some degree of Lamanite ancestry is suggested for a particular group?

How much European/(Spanish blood) is mixed in with then native populations of central and south America? We in N. America cannot claim exclusivity to European ancestry. Are not they then also Gentiles?

 

In our minds we want to draw conclusions about who the Lamanites are and who they are not as we read the book of Mormon some of these conclusions enter our minds, but we simply do not know the geography of the area of the BoM, population base etc, etc. It is impossible to fit it into our reading of the book and we should hold back from making conclusions about who is and is not a Lamanite or a descendant of Lehi. The reality is that we don't know and we should not run around claiming that we do.

[Average Joe]

Average Joe said Native Americans and Hispanic Americans are Lamanites

 

I gave you quotes by prophets which stated so but you refuse to admit that the angel Moroni would have told Joseph Smith who the Lamanites were even though he instructed Joseph over several years before Joseph could obtain the Golden Plates.

[NeuroTypical]

Average Joe said Native Americans and Hispanic Americans are Lamanites

 

Omega, did you avail yourself of any of the links people have been offering you?

 

It's pretty dang clear in the scriptures that "Lamanite" meant different things to different people at different times.  It's blindingly obvious to anyone who has spent 10 minutes reading up on the issue, to know that "Lamanite" usually doesn't mean anything about your genes, any more than being an American means you came from Ireland.

 

Here - I wrote this witty David Letterman Top 10 list back around the turn of the century.  Dusting it off just for you:

 

(Cue David Letterman "top 10" music)

 

Top 8 Ways You know you're a Lamanite. Be warned, that #1 is a doozie!

 

8) If you live somewhere around 554 BC, and you seek to destroy the people of Nephi

(Jacob 1:14)  But I, Jacob … shall call them Lamanites that seek to destroy the people of Nephi, and those who are friendly to Nephi I shall call Nephites, or the people of Nephi, according to the reigns of the kings.

 

7) You rejected the gospel as personally given by Jesus Christ

(4 Nephi 1:38 ) And it came to pass that they who rejected the gospel were called Lamanites, and Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites

 

6) You are a Nephite that decides to call yourself a Lamanite around 84 A.D.

(4 Nephi 1:20) "And he kept it eighty and four years, and there was still peace in the land, save it were a small part of the people who had revolted from the church and taken upon them the name of Lamanites; therefore there began to be Lamanites again in the land."

 

5) You are a direct descendant of Laman (Regardless of which "side" you are on)

(Alma 55:4-5)"And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words, he caused that a search should be made among his men, that perhaps he might find a man who was a descendant of Laman among them. And it came to pass that they found one, whose name was Laman; and he was one of the servants of the king who was murdered by Amalickiah."

 

4) You are a descendant of Zoram

(Alma 54:23-24) "I am Ammoron, and a descendant of Zoram, whom your fathers pressed and brought out of Jerusalem. And behold now, I am a bold Lamanite;..."

(Alma 43:4) "For behold, it came to pass that the Zoramites became Lamanites;"

 

3) You are a Nephite Defector

(Moroni 9:24) "And if it so be that they perish, we know that many of our brethren have deserted over unto the Lamanites, and many more will also desert over unto them; wherefore, write somewhat a few things, if thou art spared and I shall perish and not see thee; but I trust that I may see thee soon; for I have sacred records that I would deliver up unto thee."

 

2) You are not a Lamanite, but become one due to your certain "dissentions"

(D&C 10:48 ) "Yea, and this was their faith—that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions."

 

And the number one way to know you're a Lamanite:

 

1) According to a prophecy given around 73 B.C., you are a Lamanite if you wake up in the Americas one day around 400 A.D. to discover you are still breathing:

(Alma 45:14) "But whosoever remaineth, and is not destroyed in that great and dreadful day, shall be numbered among the Lamanites, and shall become like unto them, all, save it be a few who shall be called the disciples of the Lord; and them shall the Lamanites pursue even until they shall become extinct. And now, because of iniquity, this prophecy shall be fulfilled."

Edited June 4, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[Average Joe]

How much European/(Spanish blood) is mixed in with then native populations of central and south America? We in N. America cannot claim exclusivity to European ancestry. Are not they then also Gentiles?

 

In our minds we want to draw conclusions about who the Lamanites are and who they are not as we read the book of Mormon some of these conclusions enter our minds, but we simply do not know the geography of the area of the BoM, population base etc, etc. It is impossible to fit it into our reading of the book and we should hold back from making conclusions about who is and is not a Lamanite or a descendant of Lehi. The reality is that we don't know and we should not run around claiming that we do.

 

Again I gave you quotes by prophets and apostles and again you ignored them because "you" knew better.

[omegaseamaster75]

I gave you quotes by prophets which stated so but you refuse to admit that the angel Moroni would have told Joseph Smith who the Lamanites were even though he instructed Joseph over several years before Joseph could obtain the Golden Plates.

Because he didn't, we don't know what the angel Moroni told Joseph other than his account (josephs), which did not include outlining who exactly the Lamanites were.

 

We know that they are the descendants of Lehis son, but we most certainly cannot place them on a specific people

[omegaseamaster75]

Omega, did you avail yourself of any of the links people have been offering you?

 

It's pretty dang clear in the scriptures that "Lamanite" meant different things to different people at different times.  I wrote this witty David Letterman Top 10 list back around the turn of the century.  Dusting it off just for you:

 

(Cue David Letterman "top 10" music)

 

Top 8 Ways You know you're a Lamanite. Be warned, that #1 is a doozie!

 

8) If you live somewhere around 554 BC, and you seek to destroy the people of Nephi

(Jacob 1:14)  But I, Jacob … shall call them Lamanites that seek to destroy the people of Nephi, and those who are friendly to Nephi I shall call Nephites, or the people of Nephi, according to the reigns of the kings.

 

7) You rejected the gospel as personally given by Jesus Christ

(4 Nephi 1:38 ) And it came to pass that they who rejected the gospel were called Lamanites, and Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites

 

6) You are a Nephite that decides to call yourself a Lamanite around 84 A.D.

(4 Nephi 1:20) "And he kept it eighty and four years, and there was still peace in the land, save it were a small part of the people who had revolted from the church and taken upon them the name of Lamanites; therefore there began to be Lamanites again in the land."

 

5) You are a direct descendant of Laman (Regardless of which "side" you are on)

(Alma 55:4-5)"And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words, he caused that a search should be made among his men, that perhaps he might find a man who was a descendant of Laman among them. And it came to pass that they found one, whose name was Laman; and he was one of the servants of the king who was murdered by Amalickiah."

 

4) You are a descendant of Zoram

(Alma 54:23-24) "I am Ammoron, and a descendant of Zoram, whom your fathers pressed and brought out of Jerusalem. And behold now, I am a bold Lamanite;..."

(Alma 43:4) "For behold, it came to pass that the Zoramites became Lamanites;"

 

3) You are a Nephite Defector

(Moroni 9:24) "And if it so be that they perish, we know that many of our brethren have deserted over unto the Lamanites, and many more will also desert over unto them; wherefore, write somewhat a few things, if thou art spared and I shall perish and not see thee; but I trust that I may see thee soon; for I have sacred records that I would deliver up unto thee."

 

2) You are not a Lamanite, but become one due to your certain "dissentions"

(D&C 10:48 ) "Yea, and this was their faith—that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions."

 

And the number one way to know you're a Lamanite:

 

1) According to a prophecy given around 73 B.C., you are a Lamanite if you wake up in the Americas one day around 400 A.D. to discover you are still breathing:

(Alma 45:14) "But whosoever remaineth, and is not destroyed in that great and dreadful day, shall be numbered among the Lamanites, and shall become like unto them, all, save it be a few who shall be called the disciples of the Lord; and them shall the Lamanites pursue even until they shall become extinct. And now, because of iniquity, this prophecy shall be fulfilled."

 

Omega, did you avail yourself of any of the links people have been offering you?

 

It's pretty dang clear in the scriptures that "Lamanite" meant different things to different people at different times.  I wrote this witty David Letterman Top 10 list back around the turn of the century.  Dusting it off just for you:

 

(Cue David Letterman "top 10" music)

 

Top 8 Ways You know you're a Lamanite. Be warned, that #1 is a doozie!

 

8) If you live somewhere around 554 BC, and you seek to destroy the people of Nephi

(Jacob 1:14)  But I, Jacob … shall call them Lamanites that seek to destroy the people of Nephi, and those who are friendly to Nephi I shall call Nephites, or the people of Nephi, according to the reigns of the kings.

 

7) You rejected the gospel as personally given by Jesus Christ

(4 Nephi 1:38 ) And it came to pass that they who rejected the gospel were called Lamanites, and Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites

 

6) You are a Nephite that decides to call yourself a Lamanite around 84 A.D.

(4 Nephi 1:20) "And he kept it eighty and four years, and there was still peace in the land, save it were a small part of the people who had revolted from the church and taken upon them the name of Lamanites; therefore there began to be Lamanites again in the land."

 

5) You are a direct descendant of Laman (Regardless of which "side" you are on)

(Alma 55:4-5)"And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words, he caused that a search should be made among his men, that perhaps he might find a man who was a descendant of Laman among them. And it came to pass that they found one, whose name was Laman; and he was one of the servants of the king who was murdered by Amalickiah."

 

4) You are a descendant of Zoram

(Alma 54:23-24) "I am Ammoron, and a descendant of Zoram, whom your fathers pressed and brought out of Jerusalem. And behold now, I am a bold Lamanite;..."

(Alma 43:4) "For behold, it came to pass that the Zoramites became Lamanites;"

 

3) You are a Nephite Defector

(Moroni 9:24) "And if it so be that they perish, we know that many of our brethren have deserted over unto the Lamanites, and many more will also desert over unto them; wherefore, write somewhat a few things, if thou art spared and I shall perish and not see thee; but I trust that I may see thee soon; for I have sacred records that I would deliver up unto thee."

 

2) You are not a Lamanite, but become one due to your certain "dissentions"

(D&C 10:48 ) "Yea, and this was their faith—that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions."

 

And the number one way to know you're a Lamanite:

 

1) According to a prophecy given around 73 B.C., you are a Lamanite if you wake up in the Americas one day around 400 A.D. to discover you are still breathing:

(Alma 45:14) "But whosoever remaineth, and is not destroyed in that great and dreadful day, shall be numbered among the Lamanites, and shall become like unto them, all, save it be a few who shall be called the disciples of the Lord; and them shall the Lamanites pursue even until they shall become extinct. And now, because of iniquity, this prophecy shall be fulfilled."

 

 

I get it, unbelievers are Lamanites etc, etc...

 

 

That is not what we are discussing.

[Average Joe]

Because he didn't, we don't know what the angel Moroni told Joseph other than his account (josephs), which did not include outlining who exactly the Lamanites were.

 

We know that they are the descendants of Lehis son, but we most certainly cannot place them on a specific people

 

We don't know that Moroni told Joseph the purpose of the Book of Mormon or who it was meant for ...yet by some strange coincidence Joseph immediately sends brethern on a mission to the Native American tribes in Oklahoma and Joseph himself went on a mission to the native Americans.

 

[omegaseamaster75]

Josephs Interpretation of who the Lamanite people were, no fault in this and nothing wrong with those that did serve at his behest to bring the gospel to the "Lamanite" people

[The Folk Prophet]

How much European/(Spanish blood) is mixed in with then native populations of central and south America? We in N. America cannot claim exclusivity to European ancestry. Are not they then also Gentiles?

 

Hmm. I claim to be an Ephraimite despite the, presumably, decidedly small amount of Israelite blood that I have.