Church re-evaluating Scouting Program

[yjacket]

Each one of the 21 merit badges required for Eagle, contain at least 4-5 requirements (sometimes 7-8) that at a minimum each take 2-3 hours each.  For an extremely ambitious scout a week's worth of a merit badge scout camp will net 5  merit badges. 

 

There is a reason why only 5% of all Boy Scouts reach Eagle and it's b/c for a young man to reach Eagle (especially if he does it without his parents earning the Eagle for him) takes a lot of hard work and dedication over a significant period of time.

[yjacket]

Now the Beehive program for woman that was around in the early 1900s . ..that would be a program comparable.

[char713]

Thank you for pointing out the distinction, and yes that is a lot of valuable information and skills for young men to have. Both of my brothers attained the Eagle Scout rank, as have most of the men in my extended family. I know what a valuable program it is and how it ought to be better appreciated than it is. 

 

But I've also been thinking.. now I don't want to de-rail this thread but I am wondering why it is so vital for the young men to have such a program but not young women? I don't personally feel like I missed out on anything as a young woman but looking at it from the perspective of those who complain about a lack of equality.. this is the one point they have that does make a tiny bit of logical sense. Either the two groups have equally important present and future roles to be trained and prepared for or they don't.. and the existence of both the BSA and Duty to God programs makes it look like more resources and energies are being devoted to the male side of things. If a religious but not necessarily temporal program is suitable and sufficient for the needs of the girls, why not also too for the boys? 

 

I do remember one experience from my teen years where I percieved a double-standard, though a lot of it was probably due to my mother's rules than anything the Church ever did. My brother went on camp outs with the young men at least one weekend out of every month his junior year of high school - a full weekend free of chores or other duties at home every month. Our Mia Maid advisor's son and husband went on these trips, so she got the Bishop's permission to hold activities for the Mia Maids and Laurels on those same weekends at her home. My parents viewed the scouting trips as church meetings - meaning required attendance, and my supplementary get-togethers as social gatherings only (which of course they were, we didn't have merit badges to earn) so I only got to attend once. Again, this is probably more to do with my parents than anything else, but if the YW had had a different program in place I certainly would have had a more vibrant social life during the summers, if nothing else.

 

Edit: I do know that this all ultimately comes down to revelation and what the Prophet understands that the Lord wants for His children. Which ought to be enough of an answer in itself. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by char713

[Vort]

But I've also been thinking.. now I don't want to de-rail this thread but I am wondering why it is so vital for the young men to have such a program but not young women? I don't personally feel like I missed out on anything as a young woman but looking at it from the perspective of those who complain about a lack of equality.. this is the one point they have that does make a tiny bit of logical sense. Either the two groups have equally important present and future roles to be trained and prepared for or they don't.. and the existence of both the BSA and Duty to God programs makes it look like more resources and energies are being devoted to the male side of things. If a religious but not necessarily temporal program is suitable and sufficient for the needs of the girls, why not also too for the boys?

 

Because boys aren't girls. They are different kinds of beings.

 

One thing I learned being a custodian at BYU was that the women's restrooms are **far** more posh than the men's. (Also, that women's restrooms are more disgusting, even despite the men's urinals. But that's another matter.) Why should the women have restrooms that in some cases are twice the size of the men's, complete with upholstered seating and magazines for leisure reading?

 

Answer: Because the women need that, and the men don't.

 

Throughout the year, the Relief Society stages events for the women, sometimes cool (crafts and such), sometimes educational (e.g. economics), sometimes purely social. The men's priesthood quorums and groups might possibly have one get-together per year -- and in the case of the high priests, that's likely to be the annual quorum meeting, to which the wives are invited, as well. Why the very obvious disparity?

 

Answer: Because the women need it, and the men don't (at least not to the same extent).

 

We are trying to raise good, decent, strong men, AND THAT IS TO EVERYONE'S ADVANTAGE, MALE AND FEMALE. If our young men need monthly camping trips and a budget of $4000 per year to help them become who and what they should become -- well, in that case, every last member of the Church should be rushing to make sure they get that money. The young women should be first in line to raise those funds; after all, these are their future husbands.

 

Jealousy and competition have no part whatsoever in the Church, and most especially when we (foolishly) compare the resources taken by the young men vs. the young women. If the situation were reversed, and it were determined that the needs of the young women were such that the young women's budget were twice the young men's (as it is for the adult women, for the rest of their lives), we wouldn't hear a peep -- and rightly so. We love and value our daughters, and no price is too great to pay for their well-being. I would hope that no Latter-day Saint would ever consider our sons to be of less value than our daughters.

[yjacket]

Vort hit it right on. It's weird but the older I get the more traditional I get. The older I get the more I realize how life isn't just about me and what I want but it's about ensuring that society has continuity through the ages. It's about the next generation. The older I get the more that I realize that God's plan is the best plan.

 

Men and women are different, and they have different roles to play and that critical to societies continuance is the role of the family. The central part of the family is marriage.  65 years ago you asked a man and a woman what does being a husband mean? what does being a wife mean? And I guarantee that the answers you got would be pretty explicit, detailed and pretty common across age/race/gender. Society as a whole was taught and knew what being a husband and what being a wife meant. The older I get the more that I believe that many marriage problems can be boiled down to one or both spouses simply not being a husband or a wife. If you asked people today what being a husband or being a wife means, you would get answer that are probably as varied as the number of people you interview. Society as a whole has lost the concept and understanding of what it actually means to be a husband and a wife.  

 

Today society is less about fulfilling a role and more about "finding yourself" or whatever other psycobabble is tossed out there. The Church has a sacred obligation to help young men and young women prepare for their fore-ordained roles in life, principally to be a husband and a wife and secondly to be a father and mother (which should never take precedence over husband/wife). And that will require a difference organization for each with drastically different approaches. On the surface it might seem "unequal". But the reality is that it is equal because it is catering to each gender specifically for the values and skillsets that later in life will make them a successful husband and wife. It would be unequal and a disservice to do so otherwise.

 

So what are those roles. Well I'll give you the father/mother role as spelled out in the proclamation on the family:

" By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children."

 

If the Church as an organization does not have separate organizations for YM and YW to properly prepare each for the above then by it's own standard it is failing. 

[Palerider]

^{Here is an article that came out in the DesNews yesterday:}

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865633343/LDS-Church-relationship-with-Boy-Scouts-in-doubt-may-create-new-international-program.html

 

It mentions the church may come out with an international program to replace the BSA.

I know some other churches at least here in the Midwest have a off shoot scouting program of their own. For the life of me I cannot remember the name of it. I currently sit on our Disticts Eagle Board of Review and another member of this board had a pamphlet of another off shoot scouting program.

[Just_A_Guy]

FWIW, I don't think there's anything in the YW program that bars them from doing camping/outdoorsy stuff like the YM do. It's just that there is no requirement for such activities; and in the absence of such a requirement most YW leaders have elected not to do this sort of thing on the grounds (justifiable or not) that these activities just aren't worth the hassle. I wonder whether most local YM leaders will engage in a similar calculus once they don't have an externally-imposed set of requirements that need to be met to get their boys to the next rank.

The other thing to consider is that the YW program has a HUGE hidden cost, in the form of over a hundred and thirty church camps that are maintained primarily so that the YW have a place to go and do Girls' Camp for a week each summer. As I have noted elsewhere,

The trouble with comparing the cost-to-member of Scout Camp versus Girls' Camp is that the Church typically owns the facilities used for Girls' Camp. If you assume that your average camp's costs of operation (regardless of whether it's a Girls' Camp or a Scout Camp) are $1,000 per child per week, and an LDS young woman pays $150 for girls' camp whereas an LDS scout pays $250 (plus - say - another $100 of the Friends of Scouting take and $50 from the BSA registration fee) goes towards that cost)--Scout Camp, even with FoS, is still a screaming deal for the Church; because the combined church/individual member's cost for Girl's Camp is $1,000 (the Church's operating budget just subsidizes that other $850) whereas the combined church/individual member's cost for Scout Camp is only $400 with the Church subsidizing nothing above what has already been stated.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[kapikui]

Vort was correct.  The Church and the Lord for that matter, doesn't really care about our perception of fair.  The goal is about what creates the desired outcome.  The YW program is creating the desired result as it is. If a similar program were created for the YM, it likely wouldn't give the desired results. Creating the men and women that will be who we need them to be,.

 

As to why the YW don't do the "cool" things that the Scouts do, they aren't prohibited, but in my observations, many of the women in the church have few if any such skills and the YW leadership won't do the "cool" things because they would then have to learn to do those things and don't want to.

[Capitalist_Oinker]

"Withdrawing from BSA will leave a void in the caliber of our YM program which is going to have to be filled somehow. My hope is that as we fill this void, we'll learn that the Church *can* run a decent youth activity program on its own; which will in turn make for a more robust and outdoors-oriented YW activity program as well. "

 

While I can't speak for the Church as a whole, I can speak for a couple of wards, and these two wards will have no problem filling the BSA void. Our YM program is robust and working well as I mentioned in my previous post, and I see no logical reason why the other 29000+ wards or branches could not duplicate what we've done.

I do have one concern, however, and that is for the cub scout age boys. I’ll admit we don't have a program in place that can fill that void. 

[yjacket]

 

While I can't speak for the Church as a whole, I can speak for a couple of wards, and these two wards will have no problem filling the BSA void. Our YM program is robust and working well as I mentioned in my previous post, and I see no logical reason why the other 29000+ wards or branches could not duplicate what we've done.

I do have one concern, however, and that is for the cub scout age boys. I’ll admit we don't have a program in place that can fill that void. 

 

 

I'll admit, it's been a long time since I've been involved in YM-but not that I see. One of the really excellent things about scouting is that it gives boys challenging goals to achieve.  It was one of the last vestiges of the "not everyone is a winner" mentality.  Not every LDS boy got to be an Eagle-it had hard measurable objects that had specific goals in mind. 

 

You have a YM program who does the following as a requirement for Eagle?:

 

• Explain what citizenship in the nation means and what it takes to be a good citizen of this country. Discuss the rights, duties, and obligations of a responsible and active American citizen.
• Do TWO of the following: a. Visit a place that is listed as a National Historic Landmark or that is on the National Register of Historic Places. Tell your counselor what you learned about the landmark or site and what you found interesting about it. b. Tour your state capitol building or the U.S. Capitol. Tell your counselor what you learned about the capitol, its function, and the history. c. Tour a federal facility. Explain to your counselor what you saw there and what you learned about its function in the local community and how it serves this nation. d. Choose a national monument that interests you. Using books, brochures, the Internet (with your parent's permission), and other resources, find out more about the monument. Tell your counselor what you learned, and explain why the monument is important to this country's citizens.
• Watch the national evening news five days in a row OR read the front page of a major daily newspaper five days in a row. Discuss the national issues you learned about with your counselor. Choose one of the issues and explain how it affects you and your family.
• Discuss each of the following documents with your counselor. Tell your counselor how you feel life in the United States might be different without each one. a. Declaration of Independence b. Preamble to the Constitution c. The Constitution d. Bill of Rights e. Amendments to the Constitution
• List the six functions of government as noted in the preamble to the Constitution. Discuss with your counselor how these functions affect your family and local community.
• With your counselor's approval, choose a speech of national historical importance. Find out about the author, and tell your counselor about the person who gave the speech. Explain the importance of the speech at the time it was given, and tell how it applies to American citizens today. Choose a sentence or two from the speech that has significant meaning to you, and tell your counselor why.
• Name the three branches of our federal government and explain to your counselor their functions. Explain how citizens are involved in each branch. For each branch of government, explain the importance of the system of checks and balances.
• Name your two senators and the member of Congress from your congressional district. Write a letter about a national issue and send it to one of these elected officials, sharing your view with him or her. Show your letter and any response you receive to your counselor. 

Or that does this as a requirement for Eagle?:

1. Discuss with your counselor what citizenship in the community means and what it takes to be a good citizen in your community. Discuss the rights, duties, and obligations of citizenship, and explain how you can demonstrate good citizenship in your community, Scouting unit, place of worship, or school.
2. Do the following:
   1. On a map of your community, locate and point out the following:
      1. Chief government buildings such as your city hall, county courthouse, and public works/services facility
      2. Fire station, police station, and hospital nearest your home
      3. Historical or other interesting points
   2. Chart the organization of your local or state government. Show the top offices and tell whether they are elected or appointed.
3. Do the following:
   1. Attend a meeting of your city, town, or county council or school board; OR attend a municipal, county, or state court session.
   2. Choose one of the issues discussed at the meeting where a difference of opinions was expressed, and explain to your counselor why you agree with one opinion more than you do another one.
4. Choose an issue that is important to the citizens of your community; then do the following:
   1. Find out which branch of local government is responsible for this issue.
   2. With your counselor’s and a parent’s approval, interview one person from the branch of government you identified in requirement 4a. Ask what is being done about this issue and how young people can help.
   3. Share what you have learned with your counselor.
5. With the approval of your counselor and a parent, watch a movie that shows how the actions of one individual or group of individuals can have a positive effect on a community. Discuss with your counselor what you learned from the movie about what it means to be a valuable and concerned member of the community.
6. List some of the services (such as the library, recreation center, public transportation, and public safety) your community provides that are funded by taxpayers. Tell your counselor why these services are important to your community.
7. Do the following:
   1. Choose a charitable organization outside of Scouting that interests you and brings people in your community together to work for the good of your community.
   2. Using a variety of resources (including newspapers, fliers and other literature, the Internet, volunteers, and employees of the organization), find out more about this organization.
   3. With your counselor’s and your parent’s approval, contact the organization and find out what young people can do to help. While working on this merit badge, volunteer at least eight hours of your time for the organization. After your volunteer experience is over, discuss what you have learned with your counselor.
8. Develop a public presentation (such as a video, slide show, speech, digital presentation, or photo exhibit) about important and unique aspects of your community. Include information about the history, cultures, and ethnic groups of your community; its best features and popular places where people gather; and the challenges it faces. Stage your presentation in front of your merit badge counselor or a group, such as your patrol or a class at school.

I didn't think so.

 

People who make the claim that the Church has a program ready to go that will replace BSA and that there will be no problem filling the void, either haven't been very involved in scouts or only think scouts is about "camping out"-which is only 1/10th of what BSA was about.

 

Make no mistake if the Church thought it could do better-it would have done so by now.  There are many reasons why it hasn't.  While I'm at the point, I feel it would best serve the Church to separate from BSA now-it is a huge loss and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand scouting.

Edited July 29, 2015 by yjacket

[NightSG]

Each one of the 21 merit badges required for Eagle, contain at least 4-5 requirements (sometimes 7-8) that at a minimum each take 2-3 hours each.  For an extremely ambitious scout a week's worth of a merit badge scout camp will net 5  merit badges.

 

And yet we see those getting signed off after a single Saturday session sometimes.  I know when I was earning them, our merit badge workshops were 3-4 Saturdays, with some homework mixed in.  Some can be done in a single intensive session, like electronics, nuclear science, (counselor was a safety officer at a nuclear power plant and it was an all day field trip to the plant and the radiology department of a nearby hospital) and others not on the Eagle requirements list, but plenty of the big ones require a bare minimum of 8-12 hours of focused effort.

 

I'll admit, it's been a long time since I've been involved in YM-but not that I see. One of the really excellent things about scouting is that it gives boys challenging goals to achieve.  It was one of the last vestiges of the "not everyone is a winner" mentality.  Not every LDS boy got to be an Eagle-it had hard measurable objects that had specific goals in mind. 

 

As I said above, it has become "everyone is a winner because we're going to bend the rules until that happens."  (And I'm not claiming this is unique to LDS Scouting; there are plenty of non-LDS troops that do the same.)  It took me 2-3 tries to get some of the required merit badges, and I was far from unique in the troop and council for that: we had one kid on his 6th try for the swimming badge at summer camp.  When everybody's getting every badge they try for, and doing it in 1-2 days, it's a bit hard to believe that all requirements are being properly met.  That's not teaching the integrity that should be a part of YM and Scouting, but unfortunately, it's what the program has become.

[Backroads]

I rather like to hope that the LDS members who are deeply involved in the BSA, both men and boys, will simply find or even create their own units.

 

The Church withdrawing from Scouting doesn't mean every LDS member must be banned from it. Rather, they could be selective about the troops they would join.

[yjacket]

And yet we see those getting signed off after a single Saturday session sometimes.  

 

I agree that it happens and it is a shame. It is indicative of our current culture in general, society has pressed this belief that to fail is unacceptable and therefore we must ensure that our children are successful no matter what.

 

When the right lesson to be teaching is that failure is a part of life and just another way to success.  At work, recently I've had a massive string of failures that have left me pretty drained; but these failures will help propel me to greater success in the future.

 

It is sad that it has pervaded into scouts but it's not the way it is supposed to be.

[NightSG]

When the right lesson to be teaching is that failure is a part of life and just another way to success.  At work, recently I've had a massive string of failures that have left me pretty drained; but these failures will help propel me to greater success in the future.

 

It is sad that it has pervaded into scouts but it's not the way it is supposed to be.

 

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be possible, for example, to earn both swimming and lifesaving merit badges in a day at the pool.  What I am saying is that I would have an easier time believing that JFK staged his own death for tax purposes than that an entire class all managed to do it on the first try.  Leaders who sign off on requirements that aren't even close to successfully completed are doing a huge disservice to both the program and the youths they're supposed to be helping.

 

Unfortunately, it's not the way it's supposed to be primarily because of the adult leadership.  Granted, my (non-LDS) troop's leadership was uncommon among Scouting in general, but our leadership was really there for Scouting, not just their own sons, (And grandson, and soon great grandson for my former scoutmaster, whose father had been the first scoutmaster of that troop and still served as an assistant SM until his death a few years ago.) or because the bishop told them to.  You can't have leadership that's just interested in getting stuff signed off until their own kids make Eagle so they look good until they can ask to be released; they have to be dedicated to helping the Scouts actually grow and mature, through both success and failure, so that everyone knows that every success was earned, not just given.

 

The quote from Stephen McCranie fits well here: "the master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried."  If the master had never failed, (or rather, had been told that he never failed) what incentive would he have had to keep trying until he truly mastered the skill?

[yjacket]

NightSG, I agree 110%.

[Just_A_Guy]

I rather like to hope that the LDS members who are deeply involved in the BSA, both men and boys, will simply find or even create their own units.

 

The Church withdrawing from Scouting doesn't mean every LDS member must be banned from it. Rather, they could be selective about the troops they would join.

 

Backroads, weren't you working for the BSA in the not-too-distant past?  Any word on how the BSA is receiving the Church's most recent statement?

[estradling75]

Women are "making do" while the guys get awards/pins/badges/titles/campouts.... As a mom of both girls and boys, I am personally tired of the girls getting shafted.  My boys get more activities, more campouts, more funding, more ceremonies etc. etc. and my girls are jealous and confused why they don't get the same number of activities and recognitions. 

 

I'm also very tired of all the paperwork involved with boyscouts... so I am happy to see it go.  Hopefully the new program will give equal opportunities/activities/recognitions etc. to both girls and boys.

 

As Vort pointed out "making do" changes at 18.  After 18 it flips dramatically in favor of the women.  Would you be equally vocal about bring the RS down to the Priesthood levels of activities? Or do you some how justify to yourself that Women should have more activities then Men?

[Just_A_Guy]

Women are "making do" while the guys get awards/pins/badges/titles/campouts.... As a mom of both girls and boys, I am personally tired of the girls getting shafted.  My boys get more activities, more campouts, more funding, more ceremonies etc. etc. and my girls are jealous and confused why they don't get the same number of activities and recognitions. 

 

I'm also very tired of all the paperwork involved with boyscouts... so I am happy to see it go.  Hopefully the new program will give equal opportunities/activities/recognitions etc. to both girls and boys.

 

I'm not a fan of the BSA, but our girls (I have four myself) get an enormous subsidy in the form of a hundred and thirty-odd Church-run and largely church-funded camps that are operated primarily for the benefit of the YW programs.  Given this back-end subsidy, it's hard for me to get too worked up about disparity in front-end funding between the Church's YW and the YM/BSA programs as long as the YW continue to enjoy priority access to those camps at the expense of Young Men's groups, combined activities/youth conferences, and family groups.  If the YW feel that pins and more local funding are more of a priority than access to an annual week-long girls' camp, then hopefully they'll make that known to the Church leadership and the Church leadership can consider a re-allocation in resources.

 

But in the meantime, the dirty secret to the YW program is that the YW leaders are free to implement their own achievement programs, hold ceremonies, and take their girls on campouts with the same frequency as the YM/Scouts.  It's just that, on a ward-by-ward basis, the YW leadership overwhelmingly doesn't want to do that.  So they don't, and disappointed Mormon girls are taught to blame The Patriarchy™ for the cardinal sin of not demanding as much from the YW leadership as they do from the YM leadership.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

When I was a kid none of the girls had the least bit interest in getting the awards, recognition, etc of the boys.

 

Hmm. I wonder what's changed.  (He asks sarcastically, knowing full well what's changed).

Edited July 29, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

This YW leader and mother to 4 daughters agrees with Vort. Also, I'm more than happy to not do monthly camp-outs. LOL

[Vort]

My boys get more activities, more campouts, more funding, more ceremonies etc. etc. and my girls are jealous and confused why they don't get the same number of activities and recognitions.

 

Instead of complaining, you might do better to teach your daughters the tenth commandment.

[Guest MormonGator]

To be totally honest, I'm a very proud Mormon right now. I'm for secular gay marriage but I'm also for religious freedom. That the church will stand their ground is very inspiring to this Latter Day Saint 

[NightSG]

If the YW feel that pins and more local funding are more of a priority than access to an annual week-long girls' camp, then hopefully they'll make that known to the Church leadership and the Church leadership can consider a re-allocation in resources.

 

Considering that at least every non-LDS Scout troop offers a week (or more, especially if the Scout wants to volunteer as camp staff) of summer camp every year, I don't see how saying "the girls get one thing pretty much like what the boys get" somehow makes it any better.

 

I don't remember how much it cost to go to summer camp ~25 years ago, but glancing at a few troops' websites, $250-500 seems to be the normal range for total cost per scout now, depending on facilities and programs available.  (Obviously, some of the more intensive experiences like Philmont can approach double that amount.)  Most troops cover at least part of that from fundraisers, and I'm sure the financial assistance programs for the families that can't afford the remainder are still around.

[char713]

I understand that part of the expenses must be to have certain safety parameters in place to protect girls as they go off on hikes and solo experiences. If that is the real, big reason for the added expense of church-owned campgrounds then I have no problem with it. I attended my first three Girls' Camps overseas, and the last three at the campground that the scouts in the area also used and that the Stake had some kind of part-ownership of. One of the years at camp when I lived in Japan was held on military base property, and I remember witnessing how upset and nervous our leaders were when a large group of uniformed men came jogging between our tents one morning. And my last year at camp, here in the states, the next campground over turned out to be occupied by cannabis-loving nudists. Thankfully nothing bad happened to any of the girls at either of these camps. But I am guessing that there are still a lot of Stakes around the world that hold their girls' camps under similar possible circumstances. But as I said, as long as the added expenses are going toward safety and security rather than an over-abundance of craft supplies and pricey snacks, I'm fine with it. 

 

I realize that I am one of a very slim minority, but yes I would have liked to camp out more often and more ruggedly, and play dodgeball or capture the flag more often, rather than learning to scrapbook, style hair, and paint birdhouses as often as I did in YW. The fact that those types of crafts started to carry over from mutual activities to girls' camp as well drove me nuts at the time. My first couple years of camp we actually learned some knots and how to get clean drinking water, build fires, treat injuries, etc. But then the program changed.

 

BTW, I feel the same way about RS activities too. Smaller activities with more substance and less money spent on "fluff" (decor, beverages and desserts, laminated handouts etc.) would be wonderful for me. But not for very many other women, I know this. The best activities I have ever been to (and the only ones I remember much from) covered subjects like church history, budgeting, food storage, and making care packages for missionaries or deployed military personnel, etc. Even the activity we had last year where we sanitized all the nursery toys and talked about Christlike parenting was of greater value to me than most of our other get-togethers, and I don't have children. I feel like most of the men's activities, and YM activities too, are based on quite a lot of practical and applicable principles, and probably take a much smaller chunk of the yearly budget too. Sometimes they might just be for the sake of hanging out, as our ward's most recent EQ barbecue was, but at least they're unabashed about it. 

[Capitalist_Oinker]

People who make the claim that the Church has a program ready to go that will replace BSA and that there will be no problem filling the void, either haven't been very involved in scouts or only think scouts is about "camping out"-which is only 1/10th of what BSA was about.

 

"Haven't been very involved in scouts", you say??

Well, let's see.

I crunched the numbers and (not counting actually BEING a scout) I have been involved in scouting for almost 30 years. I have served as a scoutmaster, cubmaster, multiple merit badge counselors, unit commissioner; and COR for the past 14+ years.

I have received the Second Miler Award and the District Award of Merit, along with a couple of honor awards. I've also been through almost all of the BSE training including Wood Badge.

Contrary to your assertion, I've "been involved in scouts".

 

As far as making the claim that "the Church has a program ready to go that will replace BSA", I never made it. But (with the exception of cubscouts) I do believe the void CAN be filled by the current YM program.

 

As for this...

 

"One of the really excellent things about scouting is that it gives boys challenging goals to achieve.  It was one of the last vestiges of the "not everyone is a winner" mentality.  Not every LDS boy got to be an Eagle-it had hard measurable objects that had specific goals in mind."

 

...your experience with scouting is a far cry from mine. While this may be the ideal, it’s hardly reality; at least it isn't in all of the LDS sponsored units that I'm familiar with.

 

I won't question your expertise with community based scouting because I have no experience with it. But with few exceptions, LDS scouts are pretty much either dragged or hand-held through the program. NightSG's post is spot on. The advancement requirements are watered down or flat out ignored, and any scout leader who insisted on strict adherence would be run out of scouting on a rail. I was the ONLY merit badge counselor in the district for backpacking and wilderness survival for quite a few years, and yet I saw numerous boys receive those awards who had never even spoken with me. I once questioned the district commissioner about this and was advised to "not rock the boat". At one time I flat out refused to sit on any more board of reviews because they had become what I called a "conveyor belt operation".

 

The LDS/BSA culture is what it is, and isn't going to change.

Whatever BSA "was about" in the past, is beside the point. We deal with the here-and-now, and I maintain that it's time to leave and we can survive and even thrive without it.