Why are some subjects taboo or ignored?

[JojoBag]

Something I've been wondering about for some time is: why are some subjects "taboo" among church members? These are subjects not taboo among church leaders, but just among the members. Specifically, three that I can think of: evil spirits, women giving blessings and last days conspiracies.

 

First, evil spirits. I've seen this discussed a few times on this forum, but never in church. Many early church leaders talked quite a bit about the subject. The Prophet Joseph fought them his whole life and taught extensively about them, and how to fight them. Brigham Young gave several sermons in general conference about them and there were editorials printed in the Deseret News about how not to become possessed. We are surrounded by them every day and afflict us, but it is taboo to discuss them. I can't figure out why.

 

Second, the subject of women giving blessings. In History of the Church, Vol. 4, starting with page 602, Joseph Smith taught that women can give blessings by the laying on of hands. Heber C. Kimball also taught this same thing. However, we don't hear a single thing about this. Why?

 

Third, conspiracies of the last days. I've tried talking to members about "conspiracy theories" and I get one of two reactions: a blank look or a smirk. Even when I try to explain about Moroni's warning of a worldwide secret combination in Ether 8, I still get the smirk or blank look. The funny thing is that we are studying the teachings of President Benson, the church's leading conspiracy theorist.

 

Any ideas?

[Guest]

1. Talking about evil spirits and such things opens the door for those influences to enter our lives. From the Aaronic Priesthood manual: 

 

 

 

. . .understand the reality of Satan, but you should not talk too much about him or relate personal experiences with the power of evil.

 

If you've had such discussions, did you ever feel the Spirit during that time? Lingering on the subject will drive the Holy Ghost away. It's enough to know that we need to live worthy of the protection and presence of the Holy Ghost, and that when we feel other influences around us, we flee or pray for help.

 

2. Because it's not relevant to our time and nothing productive can come of talking about it. We also don't regularly discuss how there used to be spitoons in the temple. There were things that happened in the early Church that were a result of people who were trying but didn't know better. . . and as a Church, once we know better, we do better. Any recent counsel or revelation confirms that women are not to hold the priesthood at this time. 

 

3. Most people have seen warnings come and go that never amounted to much. Most people WILL smirk if you talk about tent cities (according to one lady in our stake, we should have been living in one at least 7 years ago) and that kind of thing. However people also realize that bad times have been prophesied, and we're seeing some of those things come to pass. We should be prepared for whatever eventuality. "If ye are prepared, ye shall not fear." 

[Vort]

I was going to respond, but Eowyn pretty much covered what I would have written.

[cdowis]

Why are some subjects taboo?

 

We're not sure how to handle it, we haven't formed an opinion, lack of information.

Edited September 5, 2015 by cdowis

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

First, Eowyn gave you a great answer.

 

Second, When I read your title, very different "taboos" came to my mind than the ones you mentioned.  The taboos that came to my mind seem more pressing and relevant to me, but that is not important.  My best conclusion is that if you have an issue that you don't feel the Leaders or the members talk about then it is your research project.  Your resources are prayer, the scriptures and the Holy Ghost.  Your final "grade" is your relationship with the Lord.  In my mind, if you draw closer to Him, you passed.  It doesn't seem to be the Lord's way that we get "spoon-fed" everything we want to know or even need to know.  Sometimes searching these things out ourselves brings growth that could not have come in any other way.  

[Guest]

...Third, conspiracies of the last days. I've tried talking to members about "conspiracy theories" and I get one of two reactions: a blank look or a smirk. Even when I try to explain about Moroni's warning of a worldwide secret combination in Ether 8, I still get the smirk or blank look. The funny thing is that we are studying the teachings of President Benson, the church's leading conspiracy theorist. ...

 

Maybe one reason you receive some of the reactions you described is that these topics lead easily to contention. When studying the teachings of President Benson, do the studies focus upon his conspiracy-related thoughts in non-church related or political areas or on teachings related to Jesus Christ and the Atonement (for example)?

Edited September 10, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[Blackmarch]

Why are some subjects taboo?

We're not sure how to handle it, we haven't formed an opinion, lack of information.

And some things are better left unknown.

[Palerider]

I am going to throw this out there .......sometimes we as Latter Day Saints don't know how to address such topics because we don't study the scriptures like we should. We attend church on Sunday and attend classes and go home and don't touch the scriptures again until the following Sunday. This is my opinion and I may make some upset but that's what and why I think some subjects are taboo or not talked about. Lack of knowledge

[David13]

Palerider

I'm studying scripture daily.  Looking up things, etc.  Of course, I'm still way behind others who have been doing that for years.

As to the questions, as to #1 I would have thought because of pc.  It's not pc to talk about the evil ones in Wash DC and all that. 

But I'm glad Eowyn enlightened me on the scripture on that.

#2 In my ward the women and men seem to be happy with their division of labor.  I haven't heard any complaints. 

#3  There are missing chapters in the E T Benson book.  No one will talk about it. I have heard that there are wards where it is too controversial so they avoid it.

In my ward we frequently touch on the subject in Priesthood, but not to any real depth.  I suppose we realize the futility of it.  And that these are the latter days.

I'm glad to see it all come up.  I'm new to the church and need the education.

dc

[Palerider]

Palerider

I'm studying scripture daily.  Looking up things, etc.  Of course, I'm still way behind others who have been doing that for years.

As to the questions, as to #1 I would have thought because of pc.  It's not pc to talk about the evil ones in Wash DC and all that. 

But I'm glad Eowyn enlightened me on the scripture on that.

#2 In my ward the women and men seem to be happy with their division of labor.  I haven't heard any complaints. 

#3  There are missing chapters in the E T Benson book.  No one will talk about it. I have heard that there are wards where it is too controversial so they avoid it.

In my ward we frequently touch on the subject in Priesthood, but not to any real depth.  I suppose we realize the futility of it.  And that these are the latter days.

I'm glad to see it all come up.  I'm new to the church and need the education.

dc

We all need to study continuously and learn all we can. I read many Church History books and I can tell you that some I have read I would not recommend to all members. I don't think they could handle what's being said. Again that's my opinion. I wish more Saints would read and study the Book of Mormon each day.

[JojoBag]

1. Talking about evil spirits and such things opens the door for those influences to enter our lives. From the Aaronic Priesthood manual: . .

 

.

understand the reality of Satan, but you should not talk too much about him or relate personal experiences with the power of evil

 

.

 

If you've had such discussions, did you ever feel the Spirit during that time? Lingering on the subject will drive the Holy Ghost away. It's enough to know that we need to live worthy of the protection and presence of the Holy Ghost, and that when we feel other influences around us, we flee or pray for help.

 

Sorry for taking so long to get back, but I had some research to do. I'm not surprised by your answer to my first taboo, which I'll answer first. It is the single most common traditional answer I have encountered from LDS. This typical LDS answer is a misinterpretation of what has actually been taught regarding evil spirits. You should have included the entire quote since it is very pertinent to this discussion. Here is the complete quote.

　

"The young men should understand the reality of Satan, but you should not talk too much about him or relate personal experiences with the power of evil. Avoid discussing the occult. If the young men bring up such subjects as Ouija boards, séances, spiritualism, or Satan worship, you should tell them that such things are tools of Satan and that we have been counseled to avoid them completely." Aaronic Priesthood Manual 2, Lesson 11.

 

 

It does not say that we should avoid talking about evil spirits. It is talking specifically about the counterfeits that Satan uses to deceive those who lack discernment. This particular quote is based on the Jan 2007 First Presidency Message written by Elder James E. Faust, The Forces That Will Save Us," is based on a couple of general conference talks and speeches at BYU.

　

"It is not good practice to become intrigued by Satan and his mysteries. No good can come from getting close to evil. Like playing with fire, it is too easy to get burned: "The knowledge of sin tempteth to its commission." The only safe course is to keep well distanced from him and any of his wicked activities or nefarious practices. The mischief of devil worship, sorcery, witchcraft, voodooism, casting spells, black magic, and all other forms of demonism should always be avoided."

 

Once again, you notice Elder Faust said nothing about not discussing evil spirits. He specifically said "Satan and his mysteries" then went on to state what those mysteries are. Elder Faust then goes on to quote a very interesting statement from Brigham Young.

 

However, President Brigham Young (1801–77) said that it is important to "study … evil, and its consequences."

 

 

Everything we know about Satan and evil spirits come from the Prophet Joseph Smith. He taught all the early Saints and church leaders. The Prophet was very concerned about the terrible influence of evil spirits. He wrote sermons about the subject, especially false spirits. One particular sermon, "Try the Spirits," was an editorial in the Times and Seasons and was included in the History of the Church.  What The Prophet taught is completely different than your answer.

One great evil is, that men are ignorant of the nature of [evil] spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence, &c, and imagine that when there is anything like power, revelation, or vision manifested, that it must be of God. History of the Church, Vol. 4, Pg. 572

Or who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latterday Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as "no man knows the things of God, but by the Spirit of God," so no man knows the spirit of the devil, and his power and influence, but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look and gesture, and the zeal that is frequently manifested by him for the glory of God, together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb, which are so characteristic of his proceedings and his mysterious windings.

A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they tnink they have the Spirit of God.

As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lies in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known.... Pg. 573

 

 

Elder Orson Pratt also quoted the Prophet.

 

In another place, the Prophet says : "Wicked spirits have their bounds, limits and laws, by which they are governed; and it is very evident that they possess a power that none but those who have the Priesthood can control."*' To his declaration that "a man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge," he adds that if men do not get knowledge, including the knowledge of how to control evil spirits, the latter will have more power than the former, and thus be able to dominate them. Orson Pratt, Saturday Night Thoughts, Pg. 311

 

 

I had a woman tell me that what you talk about you bring about. This traditionally misinterpreted answer is simply a myth that has been repeated so many times by the uninformed that is has become "doctrine" in the church. The problem is that tradition is quite often stronger than the truth. A problem that Joseph Smith lamented about.

 

I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen. HC 6:184-185

 

 

Your assertion that one cannot feel the Holy Spirit when discussing the capabilities of evil spirits doesn't make any sense when compared with the teachings and actions of the early Church leaders. Joseph Smith spent a considerable amount of time talking about them, as did Brigham Young and a couple dozen other apostles and prophets. I cannot imagine them losing the Holy Spirit unless they went out of their way to commit sin. Elder George Q. Cannon had some things to say on this subject.

We often talk about and desire to see angels. Every person who has joined this Church has had a desire to have revelations from God our Heavenly Father, and have knowledge poured out upon him as it was poured out in abundance upon the prophets of old. I merely suppose that this is so with everybody else, because I have these feelings myself, and judge others in this respect by myself. But, until we can learn to control and resist those evil influences that are now invisible, I think it would be unprofitable to have the administration of angels personally or visibly unto us. Until we can do this, I do not expect that we can have those other blessings profitably bestowed upon us. I do not expect, that, in the providence of God, we will be favored with those other blessings until we can listen unto and obey the counsels of those appointed to preside over us.

George Q. Cannon

Deseret News, Remarks, Jan 11, 1865

 

The day is fast approaching when the nature of spiritual influences (evil spirits) will be fully recognized and understood and when man, by listening to the teachings of God's Spirit and Priesthood and obtaining a correct knowledge of the laws which govern them, will be freed from the power which in the days of his ignorance they have wielded over him. . . .

George Q. Cannon

Gospel Truth

Pg. 500

 

　

I've taken the time to research all this, but I fear that with your traditional answer, you will also do what is traditional among the overwhelming majority of LDS I've talked to about this subject: ignore what was taught and continue on in your tradition. However, evil spirits surround us every minute of ever day. They never sleep, they never take a break, they never rest. They are continually watching each of us, looking for and taking notes of things we do wrong and using them in the future against us. They influence, afflict, make us sick, cause us pain and anguish and torment us as much as they are given power to do so.

 

No amount of ignoring them, hoping they will go away and leave you alone will influence them to do so. They will laugh at you and continue on with their job. I do not mean this to be confrontational, even though I'm a bit blunt and I apologize ahead of time if this offends you, but it IS the truth.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

So you started this thread not to ask a question...the answer to which you already knew, but to open the door so you could get on your soap box (it's OK we all have them). For someone who claims to be blunt, you sure took a round about way to make your point.

[JojoBag]

2. Because it's not relevant to our time and nothing productive can come of talking about it. We also don't regularly discuss how there used to be spitoons in the temple. There were things that happened in the early Church that were a result of people who were trying but didn't know better. . . and as a Church, once we know better, we do better. Any recent counsel or revelation confirms that women are not to hold the priesthood at this time. 

 

 

How is it not relevant?  Are you or have you been a single mother with little children?  What do you do if you don't have home teachers or they are the typical majority and you don't know who they are, let alone see them?  What do you do if your bishop is not living up to his calling and ignores you?  Do you continue to let your child suffer?  This has happened to me and my wife numerous times.  My wife was a single mother for many years and was essentially abandoned by the priesthood brethren.  How would it be irrelevant to her to know she could have laid her hands on her child's head and pronounce a blessing of healing or to cast out an evil spirit that was afflicting her child?

 

As for not knowing better, do you have any idea what was taught on this subject by Joseph Smith?  Go to History of the Church, Vol. 4, starting at page 602.  The Prophet was addressing the Relief Society and gave instructions regarding the fallacy that women should not give blessings.  As recorded by Eliza Snow:

 

 

...Some little foolish things were circulating in the society, against some sisters not doing right in laying hands on the sick. Said that if the people had common sympathies they would rejoice that the sick could be healed; that the time had not been before that these things could be in their proper order; that the Church is not fully organized, in its proper order, and cannot be, until the Temple is completed, where places will be provided for the administration of the ordinances of the Priesthood. President Smith continued the subject, by quoting the commission given to the ancient Apostles in Mark, 16th chapter, loth, Kith, 17th ( 18th verses, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believed not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." No matter who believeth, these signs, such as healing the sick, casting out devils, &c, should follow all that believe, whether male or female. He asked the Society if they could not see by this sweeping promise, that wherein they are ordained, it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority, which is conferred on them; and if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let everything roll on. He said, if God has appointed him, and chosen him as an instrument to lead the Church, why not let him lead it through? Why stand in the way when he is appointed to do a thing? Who knows the mind of God? Does He not reveal things differently from what we expect? He remarked that he was continually rising, although he had everything bearing him down, standing in his way, and opposing; notwithstanding all this opposition, he always comes out right in the end. Respecting females administering for the healing of the sick, he further remarked, there could be no devil in it, if God gave His sanction by healing; that there could be no more sin in any female laying hands on and praying for the sick, than in wetting the face with water; it is no sin for anybody to administer that has faith, or if the sick have faith to be healed by their administration. He reproved those that were disposed to find fault with the management of the concerns of the Church, saying God had called him to lead the Church, and he would lead it right; those that undertake to interfere will be ashamed when their own folly is made manifest; that he calculates to organize the Church in its proper order as soon as the Temple is completed.
President Smith continued by speaking of the difficulties he had to surmount ever since the commencement of the work,' in consequence of aspiring men. "Great big Elders," as he called them, who had caused him much trouble; to whom he had taught the things of the kingdom in private councils, they would then go forth into the world and proclaim the things he had taught them, as their own revelations; said the same aspiring disposition will be in this Society, and must be guarded against....  HC 4:603-604

 

Ask yourself if you are being influenced by LDS tradition.

Edited September 10, 2015 by JojoBag

[JojoBag]

So you started this thread not to ask a question...the answer to which you already knew, but to open the door so you could get on your soap box

(it's OK we all have them). For someone who claims to be blunt, you sure took a round about way to make your point.

 

I concede your point to a point.  I do have my soap box issues because I simply don't understand why the LDS ignore or cherry pick certain aspects of the Gospel.  However, my original question was why some subjects are taboo, but I got a typical, traditional LDS response.

 

As for the round about way, I have found that the typical answer (although not in this case) is prefaced by, "Well, that's your revelation."  In other words, what they are saying is, "That's your opinion and it doesn't apply to me."  Unless you can show that something comes from a general authority, it isn't true or is just your own opinion.  Unfortunately, even then, I have found that with this subject, in addition to many other subjects, the LDS ignore what is actually taught because it conflicts with their conceived LDS traditions or what they were taught growing up or their own interpretation, etc.. even when that tradition or belief is in conflict with the gospel.

 

I believe Palerider was right on with his/her reply.

 

I am going to throw this out there .......sometimes we as Latter Day Saints don't know how to address such topics because we don't study the scriptures like we should. We attend church on Sunday and attend classes and go home and don't touch the scriptures again until the following Sunday. This is my opinion and I may make some upset but that's what and why I think some subjects are taboo or not talked about. Lack of knowledge

[Vort]

 

I've taken the time to research all this, but I fear that with your traditional answer, you will also do what is traditional among the overwhelming majority of LDS I've talked to about this subject: ignore what was taught and continue on in your tradition.

 

So you ask a dishonest question with your mind already made up so you can snipe those who give the answer you dislike?

 

I do not mean this to be confrontational, even though I'm a bit blunt and I apologize ahead of time if this offends you, but it IS the truth.

 

Your apology is bogus. You are not remotely "sorry" for the offense you have gone out of your way to cause.

 

And don't flatter yourself. Your post is not "the truth"; it is your interpretation. Hard though it may be to believe, your opinion does not constitute "the truth".

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Ditto to what Vort said.

[clwnuke]

JojoBag, there is no doubt for LDS people about the existence of our spiritual brothers and sisters who sided with Lucifer's plan and were subsequently "cast out" of the Father's plan. They were not cast out for their honest belief that Lucifer's plan was preferable, but for refusing to abide by the Father's decision to support Jesus and for rebellion. That is when Lucifer, a Son of the Morning, became Satan, the author of mortal sin.

 

I think the reason it is avoided by most members is that 1. We are ignorant about the subject, and 2. There are simply more weighty matters to be concerned with in day-to-day life. As others have pointed out, righteous living is the answer whether you can quote every church leader's mention of evil spirits or not.

 

Have I pondered the subject at times, yes. Have I experienced the dreadfully awful feeling of an evil spirit's presence, yes. Did I use the authority of Jesus Christ's name to cast out the spiritual presence, yes. Since that time I've often wondered why Satan must obey when when the name of Jesus is righteously invoked, but does that matter on most days, no.  All the law and the prophets hang on the two great commandments - not on pondering about evil spirits.

 

On the subject of women giving blessings - let them give mother's blessings all they want just like I do father's blessings. There is no Church restriction on blessing in the name of Jesus Christ. It is a prayer and not a Priesthood ordinance.

 

Some have mentioned women and the Priesthood. I am 100% in favor of it. How wonderful it would be able to have my dear wife join me while blessing a sick child!  I can think of no better structural change for the Church to move forward into all nations and countries. But I also 100% support the Lord's will that it is not to be at this time. It's His Church not mine. He can run it the way He wants. I love the fact that He allows me to freely have an opinion on the matter without judgement. I can fully support the Church leaders while I have that freedom.

 

God has had restrictions on Priesthood since the time of the children of Israel. Only one tribe and the sons of Aaron could exercise it then, but not one Eternal blessing will be withheld from the members of the other tribes because of that restriction. Same thing in our day - Church leaders withheld the Priesthood from black males, but not one Eternal blessing will be withheld from them because of that restriction. Same for women. 

 

On the subject of Ether 8 - conspiracies have always existed and Moroni makes it clear that they will in our day as well. Furthermore Moroni says we will awake to a sense of our awful situation. Not just a bad situation, but an awful one. Awful because we won't just be dealing with a drug cartel or some other piddly gang, but with an organization capable of overthrowing the freedom of "all lands, nations, and countries". That kind of power is difficult to ponder, and I'm not sure the Church is ready to face it yet. Zion needs to grow as much as possible before the secret combination Moroni refers to reveals itself.  

 

Joseph Smith once said that he had been too hasty in revealing his enemies. The young church needed to grow first. We simply can't have members accusing all sorts of people of being members of these secret combinations. The whole premise of a secret combination is that the identities of its members remain secret. A false accusation by a member does great harm to our cause.

 

But there is another way to oppose all members of all secret combinations without accusing anybody - learn correct principles and support them, while opposing wrong principles no matter who sustains them. That way you wisely oppose both the conspirators and the large body of ignorant people who are simply seeking power and gain for themselves. There is simply no need for us as Church members to discern who is a conspirator and who is not. The net of correct principles catches them all. And we can support these correct principles in a loving manner that keeps the two great commandments. There is far too much hate and malice in politics. We must stand firmly above it even when our enemies use it against us.

 

So in the end, do you see why I think our day-to-day activities should focus more around Gospel living? Righteous love of God and His children will further the Lord's cause far more than a focus on the individual issues you mention. Most members are still working on the basics. Don't worry if they can't handle the details. 

 

I'm not saying don't individually study and ponder subjects you are curious about. I'm simply saying don't make them your primary objective, and don't worry about why other people are not as curious as you are. Many scriptures and statements are meant to inspire individuals to action rather than the whole Church. 

Edited September 10, 2015 by clwnuke

[JojoBag]

 

 

 

So you ask a dishonest question with your mind already made up so you can snipe those who give the answer you dislike?

 

 

Your apology is bogus. You are not remotely "sorry" for the offense you have gone out of your way to cause.

 

And don't flatter yourself. Your post is not "the truth"; it is your interpretation. Hard though it may be to believe, your opinion does not constitute "the truth"

 

 

Why the hostility?  I am sorry that this offends some people, but I am not simply expressing my opinion nor my interpretation.  I have quoted a very small sampling of what is taught by the apostles and prophets.  Joseph Smith taught that knowledge is power and knowledge is salvation, including a knowledge of evil spirits which pertains to our salvation.  That isn't my opinion, just a fact.  Instead of getting angry, do some research and find out for yourself what is tradition and what is truth.  If you'd like, I can give you a few web sites to download free all 26 volumes of the Journal of Discourses, all 7 volumes of the History of the Church, along with a couple dozen other books and articles written by the apostles and prophets, including current church leaders.

[estradling75]

Why the hostility?  I am sorry that this offends some people, but I am not simply expressing my opinion nor my interpretation.  I have quoted a very small sampling of what is taught by the apostles and prophets.  Joseph Smith taught that knowledge is power and knowledge is salvation, including a knowledge of evil spirits which pertains to our salvation.  That isn't my opinion, just a fact.  Instead of getting angry, do some research and find out for yourself what is tradition and what is truth.  If you'd like, I can give you a few web sites to download free all 26 volumes of the Journal of Discourses, all 7 volumes of the History of the Church, along with a couple dozen other books and articles written by the apostles and prophets, including current church leaders.

 

You assume he has not...  it is kinda offensive when someone toots their own horn about how 'learned' they are the moment anyone disagrees with them

[Vort]

Why the hostility?

 

Great question for the man in the mirror.

 

I am sorry that this offends some people, but I am not simply expressing my opinion nor my interpretation.

 

A hallmark of maturity is coming to the realization that what we think we "know" is always our interpretation of the facts, and not the facts themselves.

 

Joseph Smith taught that knowledge is power and knowledge is salvation, including a knowledge of evil spirits which pertains to our salvation.  That isn't my opinion, just a fact.

 

Perhaps. But your interpretation of the application of that supposed "fact" is not itself fact, just an interpretation.

 

We should not spend much (if any) time talking about evil spirits. This has been clearly taught to us, and many among us have presonal experiences that bear out that counsel. That you happen to think that Joseph Smith's teachings mean that we should do such-and-such is of absolutely no consequence. It's merely your interpretation, and not truth.

 

I am sorry you can't, or won't, see this starkly obvious -->fact<--.

 

Instead of getting angry, do some research and find out for yourself what is tradition and what is truth.

 

Ah, yes. Anyone who does not agree with you simply hasn't done as much "research" as you have. Anyone as knowledgeable as yourself would naturally agree with you. Another of your "facts", apparently.

 

By the way, I am not angry. That is another "factual" misinterpretation on your part.

 

If you'd like, I can give you a few web sites to download free all 26 volumes of the Journal of Discourses, all 7 volumes of the History of the Church, along with a couple dozen other books and articles written by the apostles and prophets, including current church leaders.

 

Sure. I would love that.

 

But you continue to miss the central point: All the articles and books and teachings do not mean that your interpretation of them is correct.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Vort

[Just_A_Guy]

[Re women giving blessings]  Ask yourself if you are being influenced by LDS tradition.

 

Meh . . . not really.  The primary impetus for the modern practice is a subsequent instruction given by a Prophet, Seer and Revelator--namely, Joseph Fielding Smith--who in 1946 taught that [w]hile the authorities of the Church have ruled that it is permissible, under certain conditions and with the approval of the priesthood, for sisters to wash and anoint other sisters, yet they feel that it is far better for us to follow the plan the Lord has given us and send for the Elders of the Church to come and administer to the sick and afflicted." 

 

I've seen some purportedly "feminist" writers suggest that the earlier practice was actually the correct way of doing things; but that LDS women lost this prerogative as some sort of punishment because they were somehow unworthy or intellectually lazy or insufficiently hostile to The Patriarchy™.  If you want to make that argument, knock yourself out--but ironically, the only viable solution to resolving this purported state of condemnation is by doing precisely what the Church already teaches:  Keep your covenants, seek the Spirit, and stay close to the leadership of the Church.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Why the hostility? I am sorry that this offends some people, but I am not simply expressing my opinion nor my interpretation.

Trust me that was not hostile at all.

Im not offended, Im annoyed. Go ahead and look those up in the dictionary if you don't know what I mean. (I'm imitating your condescending manner of speaking to help you see the point.)

This whole conversation would have gone better if you had said, Hey can we talk about (insert topic of interest here).

But you didn't do that you asked a question. We gave you sincere answers and you then revealed your true intent which was to expound upon your gospel hobby, and you managed to insult everyone who had replied in the process.

Now you are going to pretend you don't know why we find that annoying?

I'll cut to the chase...if you want us to engage in friendly conversation with you BE HONEST and stop being so condescending (because no one is boarding that train but you.)

[Traveler]

Meh . . . not really.  The primary impetus for the modern practice is a subsequent instruction given by a Prophet, Seer and Revelator--namely, Joseph Fielding Smith--who in 1946 taught that [w]hile the authorities of the Church have ruled that it is permissible, under certain conditions and with the approval of the priesthood, for sisters to wash and anoint other sisters, yet they feel that it is far better for us to follow the plan the Lord has given us and send for the Elders of the Church to come and administer to the sick and afflicted." 

 

I've seen some purportedly "feminist" writers suggest that the earlier practice was actually the correct way of doing things; but that LDS women lost this prerogative as some sort of punishment because they were somehow unworthy or intellectually lazy or insufficiently hostile to The Patriarchy™.  If you want to make that argument, knock yourself out--but ironically, the only viable solution to resolving this purported state of condemnation is by doing precisely what the Church already teaches:  Keep your covenants, seek the Spirit, and stay close to the leadership of the Church.

 

Agree - when we take an oath and make a covenant - D&C 84 - we ought to keep it - else we are left to kick against the pricks (which means to brng damage to ourselves - not really those we criticize).

[Guest]

I don't like being set up, and someone disingenuously asking questions that they want a specific answer to isn't exactly honest. I'm pretty big on integrity. I have to say, I wasn't going to take the time to answer your questions, but decided to take the time in case you were genuinely someone looking for guidance. 

 

I really hate that online forums are making me a jaded and distrustful person. 

[estradling75]

We learn the things of God through the spirit of God.  Most of the time that takes place in personal study.

 

To have a discussion you need a group of people, and you need the spirit.  Its been my experience that it is really hard to feel the spirit in a group if you think some member(s) are being fraudulent.  Such seeming fakery destroys trust, and drives the spirit away.

 

To continue such discussions without the spirit is to invite all kinds of problems