A Proposition

[Just_A_Guy]

The difference between the anti-Mormon and the heterodox Mormon is that the anti-Mormon claims to love Mormons but speaks contemptuously of Mormonism; whereas the heterodox Mormon claims to love Mormonism but speaks contemptuously of Mormons.

 

Discuss.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

Heterodox Mormons sound like some species of dinosaur...

 

How about those who claim to hate Mormonism and speaks contemptuously of Mormons but is constantly speaking about Mormons in social media?

 

[Guest]

It sounds like you're trying to separate a pre-apostate or full apostate from a non-Mormon who hates our faith or people.

 

Apostate:

"I'm really a good Mormon.  I believe in the doctrines, but we really need to change our belief about...  And I believe the Book of Mormon as the word of God.  But it is obviously mistranslated when it says... And I sustain all our leaders unless I disagree with them.  I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior.  But he's obviously just a metaphor... And why am I the only one who knows better than the prophet?"

 

Anti-Mormon

"No, no.  I don't have anything against Mormons.  They're basically good people and often pretty smart.  But they're so stupid that they believe...  And then you gotta wonder what they do when...  That sounds pretty fishy to me.  And their practices... I mean what are they thinking?  They must be delusional if they think...  And they're just perverted in their thinking if...   And they really expect you to believe...  And that's just unAmerican.  They're Satan worshippers.  They just don't know it except for their hierarchy... But they're not bad people."

 

Sound familiar?  I'm not exaggerating.  I've only taken the veneer of politeness off of what I do hear and given the unvarnished meaning of what I've heard.  

 

While I've never heard one person say ALL these things in the extreme, I have heard ALL of these individual statements in the extreme at one time or another from different people.

[Vort]

Through.

 

EDIT: Oops, sorry, misread the topic title.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Vort

[Crypto]

Our church is pretty Heterodox to begin with, not just compared to other christian churches, but also the range of belief that is allowed among the members. There are certainly limits to how heterodox people can be before not being in alignment with the Church, but overall I'm not so sure that statement holds up.

If anyone here, who loves the church, has at any time complained about another member, or types of behavior that has irritated them, that seems like the same boat as "claims to love Mormonism but speaks contemptuously of Mormons."

 

 

There are also plenty of anti-mormons who don't make the distinction between mormonism and mormons. While maybe not true for all of them, there are enough that that statement has it's own problems. (I could look for some quotes if need be, but I think i'd prefer to refrain.)

[Guest]

Ok.  Based on Crypto's post, I guess we need a definition of "Heterodox Mormon".

 

I believe Crypto was saying that the LDS faith itself is unorthodox among Christians anyway, so we are all heterodox.

 

I was interpreting the term to mean that there is "Mormon orthodoxy" and those members who significantly vary from it are one of the following:

 

1) Ignorant to the established tenets of the faith.

2) "Other" -- something I can't adequately describe without starting a flame war.

3) Apostates.

 

Since I believe the first two to be fairly benign, I chose to talk about #3.

 

But as Crypto stated, I don't think the separation between Mormons and Mormonism is what separates the two categories of people.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Guest

[Ironhold]

I'm so heterodox that I've got my own personal "Skippy's List" going.

Yet nobody IRL questions my faith or my knowledge of the gospel.

[Guest]

I'm so heterodox that I've got my own personal "Skippy's List" going.

 

Again, I have to wonder what definition we're using here.  It's difficult to have an intelligent discussion about a topic without a clear definition.

[pkstpaul]

I clearly fall under Heterodox. Should that matter to anybody here? Or does it need to be added to the terms and conditions of the forum.

[Crypto]

If we are going down this rabbit hole, is there a difference between cultural heterodoxy, and doctrinal heterodoxy? Because sometimes it seems like there is a little bit of both when talking about Latter Day Saints, especially the certain groups that claim to be LDS online, but don't seem to align with the majority in various different aspects.

Some align better culturally, some doctrinally, some a little of either or depending on issue.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Crypto

[Crypto]

Again, I have to wonder what definition we're using here.  It's difficult to have an intelligent discussion about a topic without a clear definition.

It might be easier to define orthodoxy first. One approach that one particular group that would likely be considered heterodox uses, for a baseline is the temple recommend questions. Or an alternative might be the Articles of Faith.

Though the activity of defining orthodox versus not seems to be part of the problem that caused the Great Apostasy, which is why we as latter day saints should probably avoid going down the path of judgement of orthodoxy/heterodoxy too far.

[Ironhold]

Again, I have to wonder what definition we're using here.  It's difficult to have an intelligent discussion about a topic without a clear definition.

At one point in time I used to describe myself as "The most unorthodox orthodox Mormon you'll ever meet."

Sent at least one person into a conniption fit because they were trying to figure out what that meant.

[Guest]

The difference between the anti-Mormon and the heterodox Mormon is that the anti-Mormon claims to love Mormons but speaks contemptuously of Mormonism; whereas the heterodox Mormon claims to love Mormonism but speaks contemptuously of Mormons.

 

Discuss.

It would be helpful to me if I can examine the remarks that typify these anti-Mormons and heterodox Mormons in the context of how you describe their claims. (That way I'll be less likely to respond in a way that misses the point you want to discuss. :)) Are they people you are acquainted with? Are they people with reputations the average forum member might know about?

[Guest]

Orthodoxy can be defined as the modial interaction of exegical-reluctance and revelatory-diractance.  

 

While Heterodoxy is founded on a base famulated-amulonites surmounted by a spiritual malleability in such a way that any two spurving doctrines may run in a direct line with panametric beliefs.

 

A typical heterodoxy and orthodoxy line-up consists simply of six hermenuetic marzel sentinels so forged to the ambifacient lunar tautology that doctrinal-fumbling is effectively prevented. 

 

Is that all clear to everyone?

[The Folk Prophet]

Either way doesn't sound very Christlike.

[Vort]

 

Orthodoxy can be defined as the modial interaction of exegical-reluctance and revelatory-diractance.  

 

While Heterodoxy is founded on a base famulated-amulonites surmounted by a spiritual malleability in such a way that any two spurving doctrines may run in a direct line with panametric beliefs.

 

A typical heterodoxy and orthodoxy line-up consists simply of six hermenuetic marzel sentinels so forged to the ambifacient lunar tautology that doctrinal-fumbling is effectively prevented. 

 

Is that all clear to everyone?

 

 

[Crypto]

[Anddenex]

JAG, this appears to be an appropriate statement.  This reminds me of a conversation I once had with a heterodox Mormon regarding Church leaders stance regarding specific modern, immoral, issues.

 

This individual would claim to love Mormonism, while and I quote, "The prophets are no different than the Pharisees, Saduccees, and Scribes."  The individual proceeded to say they were man with a lack of compassion and all other members who follow them are also the same.  Heterodox Mormons tend to believe God has revealed something to them that he hasn't the prophets, thus they love Mormonism, but believe the Mormons are old-fashioned, outdated, and need to keep up with the times.  All while claiming they don't judge and they leave judgement unto God.  They appear to want God's kingdom to be organized after the manner of flesh, rather than being organized after the manner of God (Nephi building a ship not after the manner of man, but after the manner of God had showed him).

[Guest]

JAG, this appears to be an appropriate statement.  This reminds me of a conversation I once had with a heterodox Mormon regarding Church leaders stance regarding specific modern, immoral, issues.

 

All while claiming they don't judge and they leave judgement unto God.  They appear to want God's kingdom to be organized after the manner of flesh, rather than being organized after the manner of God.

 

I think this is a perfect example of "I sustain our church leaders except when I disagree with them".  It just happens that they disagree a lot.

 

 

 

“they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

 

That just made me realize that these individuals are essentially doing the same thing as those who set up churches of men.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Guest

[Anddenex]

I thought this article, satire, might be appropriate for this thread, "How to Be a Successful Millennial Ex-Mormon (A Guide for Beginners)"

 

http://www.plonialmonimormon.com/2015/10/how-to-be-successful-millennial-ex.html?spref=fb

[The Folk Prophet]

I thought this article, satire, might be appropriate for this thread, "How to Be a Successful Millennial Ex-Mormon (A Guide for Beginners)"

 

http://www.plonialmonimormon.com/2015/10/how-to-be-successful-millennial-ex.html?spref=fb

 

Haha. This picture is awesome!

 

[Guest MormonGator]

Haha. This picture is awesome!

 

Whenever someone says "Oh you Mormons aren't intellectuals" I say, "Have you read these guys? No? That's okay, it's probably beyond your comprehension" 

[NeuroTypical]

The difference between the anti-Mormon and the heterodox Mormon is that the anti-Mormon claims to love Mormons but speaks contemptuously of Mormonism; whereas the heterodox Mormon claims to love Mormonism but speaks contemptuously of Mormons.

 

I think (but I'm not sure), that I'm a heterodox Mormon.  (It's kind of a big word, someone will have to spell it out for me.)  Additionally, I'm on record a plethora of times in taking issue of various Mormons and mormon-ish things I see.  That said, when I'm complaining about Mormons, I have no contempt in me to share, no contempt for them.  It isn't about contempt.  Sometimes it's about a quick giggle, sometimes it's an attempt to share stories about how not to be, so less people will be that way.  But I mean, I know some of these people.  Sometimes I've been some of these people.  Love 'em, trying to love me.  It ain't about contempt.

 

Here's an example.  I've had two mormons in the last month on my Facebook page share this image:

 

 

 

This is a horrible analogy, and those Mormons should be ashamed of themselves.  Somewhere out there are the girls who have fallen or sinned.  And they're watching the good people of the world compare them to rotten apples.  Not as good as the good apples, but easy.  What a horrible, shameful thing to tell our girls. Not to mention the horrible advice that boys shun certain girls, thinking them to be like bad rotten apples.  Please stop doing such harmful, destructive things. 

 

See - no contempt necessary.  Not speaking contemptuously.  Glad to have those two folks on my facebook feed, I value their other contributions.  Just not this one.

 

Conversely, I've seen many people who are very much critical of my church and faith, speak civilly to me without contempt.  Contemptuous anti-mormons are contemptuous, and non-contemptuous anti-mormons aren't.  Same with heterodox Mormons.

Edited October 28, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[The Folk Prophet]

Somewhere out there are the girls who have fallen or sinned.  And they're watching the good people of the world compare them to rotten apples.  Not as good as the good apples, but easy.  What a horrible, shameful thing to tell our girls.  Please stop doing such harmful, destructive things. 

 

The thing about repentance is that it washes your sins away so your garments as red as blood become as white as snow. Per the apple tree analogy, the repentant girl would be a good apple back at the top of the tree. The "easy" apples are non-repentant, and I think the analogy stands pretty well.

 

Most of the complaints about these sorts of things, imo, tend to be complaints based on either inaccurate understanding or misrepresentation of the principles of the gospel.

[dberrie2001]

I believe Crypto was saying that the LDS faith itself is unorthodox among Christians anyway, so we are all heterodox.

 

 

That has always been a strange statement, IMO. Are you saying the LDS aren't Christians--or that you have a different definition of "Christians" than what is portrayed in the Biblical NT?