The Most Odious Character in Star Trek: Voyager

[unixknight]

A topic just for fun.

So last night I had Star Trek: Voyager playing on Netflix to provide some background noise while working on stuff.  I love Star Trek, even though I've turned criticizing it into a sort of hobby.  Today will be no different.

Last night's episode was Lineage, a 7th season offering in which one of the characters, B'Elanna Torres, discovers she's pregnant.  (It's okay folks, she's married.)  Now as it happens, she's a half Human half Klingon hybrid, and had a rough childhood filled with bullying from other kids, and guilt for feeling like it was her fault her father left her mother.  (Yeah... I know.) 

So the ship's doctor shows her a holographic projection of what the child will look like, and it is clear that the child will also show heavy Klingon physical traits.  B'Elanna, worried that the child will have the same problems she had (including driving away the human father, as she believes she did herself as a child) decides to try and get the doctor to go in and re-sequence the child's DNA to remove the Klingon traits.

Now, I get that the purpose of this episode was probably to examine the ethical ramifications of fiddling with genetics, trying to produce children with certain traits, etc.  A story like that would be perfect for a sci-fi setting and could have been done very, very well.  Unfortunately, being in the hands of Voyager writers, it... fails.  Miserably.  Essentially the script failed to convey B'Elanna's concerns as being at all rational, and, as usual, B'Elanna comes off as belligerent, stubborn and aggressive rather than sympathetic and relatable.  When the Doctor expresses reservations at performing the procedure, she tries to get her husband to convince him.  Naturally, the husband is totally against trying to tinker with his unborn child's genetics.  Undeterred, B'Elanna tries to get the Captain to force the Doctor to perform the procedure.  The Captain wisely refuses to do so.

So what does B'Elanna do next?

Does she talk reasonably with her husband, expressing her concerns in an honest way and talk it out?  Nope.

Does she accept the wisdom of the people around her that she claims to respect and hold in high regard?  Nope.

Does she do any soul searching, to ask if it would really be necessary to risk her child's life on the assumption that this child MUST have the same issues she had?  Nope.

She does the following:

1. She reprograms the Doctor to tamper with his medical judgement, making him willing to perform the procedure.
2. She tampers with the hatch to sickbay, making it impossible to open using normal means, including the security override.
3. She sets up a forcefield around the sickbay treatment station, so nobody can stop the doctor from performing this procedure.

So basically, she's telling her husband, her friends and her commanding officer that, no matter what they may have to say, she's doing what she wants and that's the end of it.  So in a single act of what is essentially mutiny, she commits the following crimes:

1. Unauthorized modification of a critical starship system (The holographic Doctor)
2. Unauthorized use of security protocols to restrict proper access of starship facilities to the crew. (Sickbay.  What if someone else had been injured or was ill?)
3. Unauthorized use of a forcefield to interfere with ship's security.
4. Disobeying an order (The Captain was deferring to the Doctor's medical judgement and ordered her and her husband to work it out between them.)
5. Mutiny
6. Endangering fellow crewmates (by restricting access to sickbay)
7. Initiating an unlawful medical procedure (If it were lawful, the Captain would have no authority to say no)

Not to mention the morally and ethically questionable acts of:

1. Tampering with a friend's mind to force them to see things her way (The Doctor)
2. Making a unilateral decision about the child without regard for the father's side and forcing her wishes
3. Abusing her technical skills to subvert ship's security, systems and equipment
4. Making unnecessary and risky modifications to her child's body based solely on her own unhappy childhood experiences
5. Demonstrating a willingness to place her own wishes and judgement over that of her doctor, her Captain and her husband.

Of course, the others are able to stop the procedure before it's done, and after a tearful and melodramatic conversation with her husband, B'Elanna relents and agrees to leave the child alone to develop naturally.  Her own inner fears of the hybrid child driving away the dad are expressed and addressed, and all is well.  The ship continues to fly through space, back to normal.

Maybe I'm just not a forgiving enough person, but I feel like there should have been.... I dunno... some consequences for the actions of this irritating and odious character.

Captain Janeway:  Should have put B'Elanna in the brig for at least a month with a reduction in rank.  Her higher level security clearance revoked.

Tom Paris: Would have put her on notice that he has no desire to ever abandon her, but if she continues to undermine and poison the marriage in this way, including endangering the child(ren), that might well destroy the marriage.

The Doctor: Should have told B'Elanna to stay away from sickbay until further notice unless she's bleeding, dying or in labor.  Her husband could handle her bumps and scrapes.  (He's the ship's medic as well as helmsman.) 

I think the biggest problem with this character is that she's given far more authority, responsibility and yes, forgiveness than she can handle.  This episode is only one of many where B'Elanna does morally questionable things and everything is always forgiven because she's a gifted engineer and is needed to maintain the ship.  I don't know that I entirely blame the character as a concept... the writers obviously wanted her to be a sympathetic character but more often than not she just comes across as annoying at best.  I don't know whether the blame rests with the writers, the directors or the actress, but it's probably shared.

The other problem is that she is a character meant to represent someone who is conflicted by having one foot in each of two worlds... Human and Klingon.  The problem is that we already had a character like that:  Worf.  And he did it far, far better.  He was a full-blooded Klingon but had been raised on Earth by human parents.  He had his own struggles and conflicts but he generally resolved them in a more constructive way, sometimes accepting help from friends when he needed it.  He did this and remained likable and relatable.  B'Elanna was just a failed character from start to finish.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Interesting point about Torres versus Worf.  That seemed to be a common failing with Voyager - it was often just a rehash of plots done first and better by TNG or DS9. 

Wasn't there an episode where, due to an unfortunate transporter accident, B'Lanna was split into two people, one fully human and one fully Klingon?  And then later the writers tried the converse--Tuvok and Neelix got merged, via another transporter accident, into a single being called "Tuvix" whom Janeway essentially had to send to his death in order to get Tuvok and Neelix back.

But I would note, in passing, that if all characters in television shows acted rationally and communicated effectively in response to whatever conflict was driving the plot--those shows would be over before the first commercial break.

[anatess2]

B'Elanna is the token Kling-on.  Although half-breed, she is the go-to character when they want the Kling-on bullheadedness and aggression.  She's female and Voyager is big on showcasing the females... so they gave her lots of chutzpah while they gave Janeway lots of compassion and they gave Seven-of-Nine lots of brains to make them all different strengths of woman.  It's a TV show.  40 minutes worth of script.  These tend to keep character angst more cardboard-like sticking to their character cardboard traits.  Not too deep, but maximized drama.  If you want more depth, make a movie.

So, this episode is just another one of the character theme... of course, B'Elanna goes full Kling-on.  That's her cardboard.  The Doctor is a perfect foil.  He's just a program.  The writers can make him as robotic as a regular EMH is supposed to be or as human as they want to give him acquired traits - the writers can use him however they need to make the script move.  Of course, tampering with the Doctor is par for the course.  He's not supposed to even have human moral codes other than what is programmed into an EMH.  Everything else he acquired is an anomaly (yeah yeah, he did have his own episode of human angst allowing Kim to live out his Voyager contract) so writers can vacillate between treating him as a life-form or treating him no more than "Computer".

As far as forgiveness and all that... This is sure not the only... or even worse... ethical crimes committed by the cast of characters.  I mean... Janeway's tampering of Seven of Nine with her absolute refusal and desire to be returned to the Borg lasted episodes... Even the Doctor pointed out the questionable ethics of her insistence that the Doctor remove her borg technology that Janeway acknowledged is not what Seven wants... B'Elanna making decisions for her own unborn baby sounds more acceptable than THAT!

[Blackmarch]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

A topic just for fun.

So last night I had Star Trek: Voyager playing on Netflix to provide some background noise while working on stuff.  I love Star Trek, even though I've turned criticizing it into a sort of hobby.  Today will be no different.

Last night's episode was Lineage, a 7th season offering in which one of the characters, B'Elanna Torres, discovers she's pregnant.  (It's okay folks, she's married.)  Now as it happens, she's a half Human half Klingon hybrid, and had a rough childhood filled with bullying from other kids, and guilt for feeling like it was her fault her father left her mother.  (Yeah... I know.) 

So the ship's doctor shows her a holographic projection of what the child will look like, and it is clear that the child will also show heavy Klingon physical traits.  B'Elanna, worried that the child will have the same problems she had (including driving away the human father, as she believes she did herself as a child) decides to try and get the doctor to go in and re-sequence the child's DNA to remove the Klingon traits.

Now, I get that the purpose of this episode was probably to examine the ethical ramifications of fiddling with genetics, trying to produce children with certain traits, etc.  A story like that would be perfect for a sci-fi setting and could have been done very, very well.  Unfortunately, being in the hands of Voyager writers, it... fails.  Miserably.  Essentially the script failed to convey B'Elanna's concerns as being at all rational, and, as usual, B'Elanna comes off as belligerent, stubborn and aggressive rather than sympathetic and relatable.  When the Doctor expresses reservations at performing the procedure, she tries to get her husband to convince him.  Naturally, the husband is totally against trying to tinker with his unborn child's genetics.  Undeterred, B'Elanna tries to get the Captain to force the Doctor to perform the procedure.  The Captain wisely refuses to do so.

So what does B'Elanna do next?

Does she talk reasonably with her husband, expressing her concerns in an honest way and talk it out?  Nope.

Does she accept the wisdom of the people around her that she claims to respect and hold in high regard?  Nope.

Does she do any soul searching, to ask if it would really be necessary to risk her child's life on the assumption that this child MUST have the same issues she had?  Nope.

She does the following:

1. She reprograms the Doctor to tamper with his medical judgement, making him willing to perform the procedure.
2. She tampers with the hatch to sickbay, making it impossible to open using normal means, including the security override.
3. She sets up a forcefield around the sickbay treatment station, so nobody can stop the doctor from performing this procedure.

So basically, she's telling her husband, her friends and her commanding officer that, no matter what they may have to say, she's doing what she wants and that's the end of it.  So in a single act of what is essentially mutiny, she commits the following crimes:

1. Unauthorized modification of a critical starship system (The holographic Doctor)
2. Unauthorized use of security protocols to restrict proper access of starship facilities to the crew. (Sickbay.  What if someone else had been injured or was ill?)
3. Unauthorized use of a forcefield to interfere with ship's security.
4. Disobeying an order (The Captain was deferring to the Doctor's medical judgement and ordered her and her husband to work it out between them.)
5. Mutiny
6. Endangering fellow crewmates (by restricting access to sickbay)
7. Initiating an unlawful medical procedure (If it were lawful, the Captain would have no authority to say no)

Not to mention the morally and ethically questionable acts of:

1. Tampering with a friend's mind to force them to see things her way (The Doctor)
2. Making a unilateral decision about the child without regard for the father's side and forcing her wishes
3. Abusing her technical skills to subvert ship's security, systems and equipment
4. Making unnecessary and risky modifications to her child's body based solely on her own unhappy childhood experiences
5. Demonstrating a willingness to place her own wishes and judgement over that of her doctor, her Captain and her husband.

Of course, the others are able to stop the procedure before it's done, and after a tearful and melodramatic conversation with her husband, B'Elanna relents and agrees to leave the child alone to develop naturally.  Her own inner fears of the hybrid child driving away the dad are expressed and addressed, and all is well.  The ship continues to fly through space, back to normal.

Maybe I'm just not a forgiving enough person, but I feel like there should have been.... I dunno... some consequences for the actions of this irritating and odious character.

Captain Janeway:  Should have put B'Elanna in the brig for at least a month with a reduction in rank.  Her higher level security clearance revoked.

Tom Paris: Would have put her on notice that he has no desire to ever abandon her, but if she continues to undermine and poison the marriage in this way, including endangering the child(ren), that might well destroy the marriage.

The Doctor: Should have told B'Elanna to stay away from sickbay until further notice unless she's bleeding, dying or in labor.  Her husband could handle her bumps and scrapes.  (He's the ship's medic as well as helmsman.) 

I think the biggest problem with this character is that she's given far more authority, responsibility and yes, forgiveness than she can handle.  This episode is only one of many where B'Elanna does morally questionable things and everything is always forgiven because she's a gifted engineer and is needed to maintain the ship.  I don't know that I entirely blame the character as a concept... the writers obviously wanted her to be a sympathetic character but more often than not she just comes across as annoying at best.  I don't know whether the blame rests with the writers, the directors or the actress, but it's probably shared.

The other problem is that she is a character meant to represent someone who is conflicted by having one foot in each of two worlds... Human and Klingon.  The problem is that we already had a character like that:  Worf.  And he did it far, far better.  He was a full-blooded Klingon but had been raised on Earth by human parents.  He had his own struggles and conflicts but he generally resolved them in a more constructive way, sometimes accepting help from friends when he needed it.  He did this and remained likable and relatable.  B'Elanna was just a failed character from start to finish.

 

about half of all or more TV episodes would be done away with if some important character didn't do some colossal idiotic bad choice... altho in her defense, a significant portion of her life was being with a terrorist group... somethings might die hard.

[unixknight]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Interesting point about Torres versus Worf.  That seemed to be a common failing with Voyager - it was often just a rehash of plots done first and better by TNG or DS9.

Agreed.  Sometimes it's so obvious you can almost hear the lines of dialogue being delivered in the original characters' voices.

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Wasn't there an episode where, due to an unfortunate transporter accident, B'Lanna was split into two people, one fully human and one fully Klingon?  And then later the writers tried the converse--Tuvok and Neelix got merged, via another transporter accident, into a single being called "Tuvix" whom Janeway essentially had to send to his death in order to get Tuvok and Neelix back.

Yep, which were also efforts to explore interesting philosophical questions but weren't well implemented.

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

But I would note, in passing, that if all characters in television shows acted rationally and communicated effectively in response to whatever conflict was driving the plot--those shows would be over before the first commercial break.

That's true, though I think Voyager was more prone to that than most.

The most horribly egregious example I can think of was one where the Doctor gave some hostile aliens the ship's warp core as ransom to get the Captain back.  The aliens took both, of course, and the Doctor's justification for this?  "Voyager can survive without a warp core, but not without her Captian."  Which, of course, is utter hogwash.  A starship in deep space with no functioning warp drive is dead.  By the time it could make its way to the nearest star system at sublight speed everyone on board would have long since died of starvation.  If the Captain were killed that would be bad... but Chakotay had demonstrated competence as a commander and could have taken over for Janeway.

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

B'Elanna is the token Kling-on.  Although half-breed, she is the go-to character when they want the Kling-on bullheadedness and aggression.  She's female and Voyager is big on showcasing the females... so they gave her lots of chutzpah while they gave Janeway lots of compassion and they gave Seven-of-Nine lots of brains to make them all different strengths of woman.  It's a TV show.  40 minutes worth of script.  These tend to keep character angst more cardboard-like sticking to their character cardboard traits.  Not too deep, but maximized drama.  If you want more depth, make a movie.

You're right about the cardboard, but that's exactly the problem.  Previous incarnations of Star Trek had much more well rounded and developed characters.  You can have much more depth with a TV show than a movie because the characters have so much more screen time.  IF you seize the opportunity, that is.  Good point about the female characters too.

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

So, this episode is just another one of the character theme... of course, B'Elanna goes full Kling-on.  That's her cardboard.  The Doctor is a perfect foil.  He's just a program.  The writers can make him as robotic as a regular EMH is supposed to be or as human as they want to give him acquired traits - the writers can use him however they need to make the script move.  Of course, tampering with the Doctor is par for the course.  He's not supposed to even have human moral codes other than what is programmed into an EMH.  Everything else he acquired is an anomaly (yeah yeah, he did have his own episode of human angst allowing Kim to live out his Voyager contract) so writers can vacillate between treating him as a life-form or treating him no more than "Computer".

Thing is, Worf didn't have to be a cardboard Klingon and he wasn't.  They did a fantastic job of fleshing him out into, arguably, the most awesome Trek character ever.  (It doesn't hurt that Worf also has had more screen time than any other character.)  Worf had the usual Klingon anger management issues, but he struggled with that because he had the desire to be better, to control it, to focus on honorable behavior and not just simple Klingon bloodlust.  He wanted to improve himself by using his best Klingon characteristics.  (His breakout episode was "Heart of Glory" IMHO.)  B'Elanna is the opposite... she doesn't try to better herself, only mitigate her Klingon half which she despises.  It's a tough thing to portray on screen, and sadly I think the writers, actress and directors weren't up to the task.

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

As far as forgiveness and all that... This is sure not the only... or even worse... ethical crimes committed by the cast of characters.  I mean... Janeway's tampering of Seven of Nine with her absolute refusal and desire to be returned to the Borg lasted episodes... Even the Doctor pointed out the questionable ethics of her insistence that the Doctor remove her borg technology that Janeway acknowledged is not what Seven wants... B'Elanna making decisions for her own unborn baby sounds more acceptable than THAT!

I'd say that shows even more the bizarre and inconsistent writing in that show.  Such a great premise, so utterly wasted.  

44 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

about half of all or more TV episodes would be done away with if some important character didn't do some colossal idiotic bad choice... altho in her defense, a significant portion of her life was being with a terrorist group... somethings might die hard.

Chakotay was a member of that same terrorist group and  yet comes off as the most reasonable and charismatic character on the entire ship, more often than not.  In many ways he's exactly the opposite of B'Elanna.

[Blackmarch]

and was also one of their leaders who was able to keep them a cohesive unit between a wide range of beliefs and temperaments and skills. b'elenna had engineering skills, lonewolfism, stubborness and a temper to match.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Blackmarch

[unixknight]

Yep.  There's never been any question that B'Elanna is a brilliant engineer... and maybe in a Maquis setting her character flaws are tolerable, but seem to be a massive liability in the more regimented, disciplined environment on a Federation Starship.  You know, they could have really done some interesting things with that, but instead what we got was just B'Elanna throwing a temper tantrum every other episode and people just tolerate it because of her engineering talent.

[mordorbund]

Just admit it. You hate Klingons unless they're "acting human".

UGH! you disgust me.

[Guest]

(Me included.)

If you think most guys were tuning in for Seven of Nine's brains, I have a bridge to sell you. 

[Blackmarch]

it is/was a massive liability. but for Janeway, she didn't have much of a choice.

[unixknight]

10 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

it is/was a massive liability. but for Janeway, she didn't have much of a choice.

I'd argue that she could have made use of B'Elanna's skills as an engineer without making her Chief Engineer and giving her as much access as she had.  B'Elanna consistently demonstrated an inability to handle the level of authority and access entrusted to her.  The episode I started this thread with is a perfect example.  She had to have some seriously high level access to not only reprogram the Doctor, but to also lock security out of Sickbay, FPS. 

[Vort]

You want a well-written, well-directed, well-acted, cohesive, believable SF TV show with sympathetic characters. Watch Firefly. Any of the Star Treks, including the original, look like amateur hour next to that.

[unixknight]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

You want a well-written, well-directed, well-acted, cohesive, believable SF TV show with sympathetic characters. Watch Firefly. Any of the Star Treks, including the original, look like amateur hour next to that.

Yeah Firefly was pretty good, as was Babylon 5.  Battlestar Galactica had its moments, but tapered after a while.  Star Trek has a few gems, but you really have to sit through a lot of schlock to find them.  Even so, I can't stay mad at Trek.  It gives me endless hours of amusement poking fun at it and analyzing it

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Yeah Firefly was pretty good, as was Babylon 5.

Favorites here, too.

[Vort]

10 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Yeah Firefly was pretty good

I have to disagree. Firefly was not "pretty good". It was easily the gold standard of television SF space opera. Honestly, nothing else even comes close. That's not to say I approved of Firefly all the time. I often found it crass and incredibly sexually inappropriate, with a level of explicit violence that left me stunned. I would not want my children to watch it. Basically R-rated prime time TV. But as a television SF series, it is without parallel.

[Guest]

Captain Mal has no parallel. 

[unixknight]

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have to disagree. Firefly was not "pretty good". It was easily the gold standard of television SF space opera. Honestly, nothing else even comes close. That's not to say I approved of Firefly all the time. I often found it crass and incredibly sexually inappropriate, with a level of explicit violence that left me stunned. I would not want my children to watch it. Basically R-rated prime time TV. But as a television SF series, it is without parallel.

I give credit where credit's due to Firefly, in that the dialogue was memorable and quotable, the characters memorable and lovable, and the action was great.  What it lacked, IMHO, was depth.  Babylon 5 was incredibly deep, exploring themes of good, evil, religion (in a respectful way, utterly unlike Star Trek), philosophy... Firefly was great fun but ultimately for me it was bubblegum.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, unixknight said:

I give credit where credit's due to Firefly, in that the dialogue was memorable and quotable, the characters memorable and lovable, and the action was great.  What it lacked, IMHO, was depth.  Babylon 5 was incredibly deep, exploring themes of good, evil, religion (in a respectful way, utterly unlike Star Trek), philosophy... Firefly was great fun but ultimately for me it was bubblegum.

Again, I disagree, but this may be a matter of personality and taste. I find Star Trek philosophy to be laughably half-baked, no better than its "science" (or, even worse, its "engineering"). Given the choice between watching some moralistic tale thought up by writers at about an eighth-grade level of ethical sensibility vs. watching believable, sympathetic characters struggle with believable situations, often suffering the brutal consequences of their decisions -- which, let's face it, rarely happened on any of the Star Treks -- I find the latter to have far more emotional and even spiritual resonance and depth.

In one Firefly episode, the husband (Wash) of Captain Mal's old rebellion buddy Zoe has been pestering his wife with his insecurities, insisting that she actually respects and honors Mal more than him. It's kind of pathetic, but really keeping with Wash's character, who is happy-go-lucky and a bit shallow. In that episode, Mal and Wash are kidnapped by a notorious criminal and torturer, and Zoe has to negotiate their release. She is offered one of the two men, knowing full well that the other will be tortured to death. Without hesitation, she chooses her husband, leaving her captain and war buddy to an excruciatingly painful death. (Several excruciatingly painful deaths, in fact.)

Of course, they immediately turn around to rescue Mal, and though vastly outnumbered, through cleverness and pluck manage to snatch him from the jaws of hell (after he has been killed and revived a couple of times). So there's some silly fantasy wish fulfillment going on there, too. But in just one season, that show produced an episode with the raw honesty of Zoe choosing Wash over Mal, which is almost unmatched in the many, many seasons of the various incarnations of Star Trek. Amateur hour indeed.

I never watched much Babylon 5. Frankly, I found it boring. It looked like a retread of Star Trek with slightly different latex forehead fittings.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Vort

[unixknight]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

Again, I disagree, but this may be a matter of personality and taste. I find Star Trek philosophy to be laughably half-baked, no better than its "science" (or, even worse, its "engineering"). Given the choice between watching some moralistic tale thought up by writers at about an eighth-grade level of ethical sensibility vs. watching believable, sympathetic characters struggle with believable situations, often suffering the brutal consequences of their decisions -- which, let's face it, rarely happened on any of the Star Treks -- I find the later to have far more emotional and even spiritual resonance and depth.

Yeah I can't disagree about Trek's weaknesses.  It doesn't stand up well to any speculative sci fi TV show, IMHO. 

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

In one Firefly episode, the husband (Wash) of Captain Mal's old rebellion buddy Zoe has been pestering his wife with his insecurities, insisting that she actually respects and honors Mal more than him. It's kind of pathetic, but really keeping with Wash's character, who is happy-go-lucky and a bit shallow. In that episode, Mal and Wash are kidnapped by a notorious criminal and torturer, and Zoe has to negotiate their release. She is offered one of the two men, knowing full well that the other will be tortured to death. Without hesitation, she chooses her husband, leaving her captain and war buddy to an excruciatingly painful death. (Several excruciatingly painful deaths, in fact.)

Of course, they immediately turn around to rescue Mal, and though vastly outnumbered, through cleverness and pluck manage to snatch him from the jaws of hell (after he has been killed and revived a couple of times). So there's some silly fantasy wish fulfillment going on there, too. But in just one season, that show produced an episode with the raw honesty of Zoe choosing Wash over Mal, which is almost unmatched in the many, many seasons of the various incarnations of Star Trek. Amateur hour indeed.

Yeah that one was my favorite episode of the series.  I also really liked the one that told the backstories of the crew interlaces with Mal alone on the ship, disabled, trying to repair it. 

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

I never watched much Babylon 5. Frankly, I found it boring. It looked like a retread of Star Trek with slightly different latex forehead fittings.

I think it would be worth another try if you get a chance.  The themes and stories take a long time to build, but they pay off huge later.  

I'm not knocking Firefly, I just think it gets a little more credit than it deserves when it comes to its depth.  I think the Serenity movie was a great send-off.

[Maureen]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

...Wasn't there an episode where, due to an unfortunate transporter accident, B'Lanna was split into two people, one fully human and one fully Klingon?  And then later the writers tried the converse--Tuvok and Neelix got merged, via another transporter accident, into a single being called "Tuvix" whom Janeway essentially had to send to his death in order to get Tuvok and Neelix back....

The Vidiians, the ones suffering from the Phage, captured Torres and split her into her Klingon self and her Human self, it was not a transporter accident.

M.

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, unixknight said:

A topic just for fun.

So last night I had Star Trek: Voyager playing on Netflix to provide some background noise while working on stuff.  I love Star Trek, even though I've turned criticizing it into a sort of hobby.  Today will be no different.

[Shortened for length)

Come on, give B’lanna a break.  Yeah… there’s points I’m not a big fan of her either, but she shows different aspect of the human experience.

I know the episode you’re talking about, it’s actually one of my favorites in season 7 and B’lanna centeric in general.  The episode isn’t actually about genetics, but learning how to accept yourself, which has always been B’lanna’s core struggle.  Yes she doesn’t listen to her husband and friends as first--- who does when it comes to deep self-esteem insecturies?  These things aren’t logical at all, and (usually) only change with some dramatic event (like the events in sick bay).

As to realistic consquences for her actions?   Of course the consquences aren’t realistic- it’s a TV show!  And Star Treck on top of it!   Pick any random Star Trek episode, and they will also have minimal consequences for rule breaking an other things.  Come on, how many times did Captian Kirk break the Prime Directive and barely get a hand-slap?

[unixknight]

16 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Come on, give B’lanna a break.  Yeah… there’s points I’m not a big fan of her either, but she shows different aspect of the human experience.

I know the episode you’re talking about, it’s actually one of my favorites in season 7 and B’lanna centeric in general.  The episode isn’t actually about genetics, but learning how to accept yourself, which has always been B’lanna’s core struggle.  Yes she doesn’t listen to her husband and friends as first--- who does when it comes to deep self-esteem insecturies?  These things aren’t logical at all, and (usually) only change with some dramatic event (like the events in sick bay).

All that is true, but I'd point out that this was a Season 7 episode, and this was the first time her childhood pain had been revealed... and that would have been okay if they'd been building up to it.  As it came across, it just felt like one more factor in why B'Elanna is such a pain to deal with.  There's almost a sort of template in Voyager episodes for B'Elanna:

• Something triggers B'Elanna
• She starts acting on her own, irrationally
• Somebody else notices and tries to help
• She roughly refuses help and becomes belligerent
• Chakotay and/or Janeway try to talk her down.  They fail.
• The situation comes to a head
• B'Elanna cries it out and everything's back to normal.

I can think of at least 3 episodes that follow this format:  Lineage, Barge of the Dead and Extreme Risk.

To be honest, if my wife were to not only make a unilateral decision like that but also try to force her way, disregarding my input, that would be a severe threat to the marriage.  This episode tied off the problem with a bow at the end (which, granted, is normal for a show of this type).  That issue could have made for some good drama in later episodes but, as Voyager is known for best, it was a missed opportunity.

16 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

As to realistic consquences for her actions?   Of course the consquences aren’t realistic- it’s a TV show!  And Star Treck on top of it!   Pick any random Star Trek episode, and they will also have minimal consequences for rule breaking an other things.  Come on, how many times did Captian Kirk break the Prime Directive and barely get a hand-slap?

See, I know you're right in practice, but I'd argue that was a contributing weakness.  There were a few examples in Star Trek where consequences matter, either directly or because they came back later to haunt the person.  Khan came back for Kirk, Picard's actions in previous actions were questioned in The Drumhead, Wesley has to repeat a year at Starfleet Academy in "The First Duty," to name three.  That needed to happen MORE, because the episodes that don't hit the reset button at the end are often more interesting.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

In one Firefly episode, the husband (Wash) of Captain Mal's old rebellion buddy Zoe has been pestering his wife with his insecurities, insisting that she actually respects and honors Mal more than him. It's kind of pathetic, but really keeping with Wash's character, who is happy-go-lucky and a bit shallow. In that episode, Mal and Wash are kidnapped by a notorious criminal and torturer, and Zoe has to negotiate their release.

I have never laughed so hard during an intense torture scene.  

And she made Wife soup.  

[mirkwood]

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 plots done first and better by TNG or DS9. 

 

I really didn't think DS9 did anything better...ever.  Hated that show.  Worf was the only good point of the show...except cancellation.  That was pretty good.

 

Side note....I didn't like 7 of 9. 

[NeuroTypical]

DS9 picked up in the later seasons, as it turned into a geopolitical conflict show with the war and the Dominion and all.  

Quark using root beer to teach Garek about the federation is a classic.