To Question One's Faith

[Aish HaTorah]

A poster started a thread in the Advice section that got me to thinking.  Within your belief system, is questioning your faith considered a fruitful thing or something best avoided?  Are there boundaries?  I guess I am asking if you feel there is any gain to be had in openly questioning what you believe and if you are stronger (or more faithful) for doing so, or if it is a damaging endeavor.  Sorry if I am not asking clearly.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

I was raised Orthodox  Catholic. Went to church every week, Catholic school, etc. I questioned my faith and became LDS. So it would be hypocritical of me to say "Don't question your faith." Asking questions is a good thing. In fact, the case can easily be argued that if Joseph Smith didn't ask questions, we wouldn't be here.  

[Aish HaTorah]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I was raised Orthodox  Catholic. Went to church every week, Catholic school, etc. I questioned my faith and became LDS. So it would be hypocritical of me to say "Don't question your faith." Asking questions is a good thing. In fact, the case can easily be argued that if Joseph Smith didn't ask questions, we wouldn't be here. 

Would you say this is the general belief of your fellow believers?  (Sorry to ask you to speak for everyone. )

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Would you say this is the general belief of your fellow believers?  (Sorry to ask you to speak for everyone. )

 Like you said, I only speak for myself. I'm fairly independent and I don't think anyone would really want me to speak for them in the least.  

Sadly though, I don't think most people really question their beliefs. They basically might have a moment of doubt here or there, but they really don't. Same goes for politics. You decide what you want to believe and then look for reasons to believe it. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I think that until recently  (the last couple years) the opinion of church culture was very much-no, you should not question. When people had questions and doubts, other assumed they had either sinned or had been reading anti-Mormon materials. Unfortunately this led to a great deal of shame for those who had questions. I know many people who have had doubts and questions about the church and dealt with them alone until they decided to leave the church. I look at these friends and think I wish you would have told me, perhaps I could have helped.

Notice I said this was church culture not the teaching or doctrine. Sometimes culture doesn't reflect doctrine.

The good news is I see this culture changing. A big part of that is Pres. Uctdorf, who is in the first PresidenCy has spoken on this subject a few times. I believe Leaders have as well. They have explained that having doubt and questions doesn't mean someone sinned. They have extended kind words of fellowship to those who are questioning letting them know they are welcome. Of course it should be said there is a difference betweenthose who are genuinely questioning and those who have already aligned themselves against the church and just want to get others to follow them. The latter are sometimes ex-communicated.

When I went through a time of serious doubt and questions, I made an appointment with my Bishop. We started meeting regularly. He was very kind and supportive. I never felt judged by him for struggling. I came through that difficult time with my belief stronger than before. So my opinion is the questioning is good, if you have loving support. It can be detrimental if you are left to question alone because you feel shame for having the questions. 

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, Aish HaTorah said:

A poster started a thread in the Advice section that got me to thinking.  Within your belief system, is questioning your faith considered a fruitful thing or something best avoided?

The answer to your question is, "Yes."

Anyone who says he has never questioned his faith (among us or any other group) is probably fooling himself or trying (and failing) to fool others.

It depends on how he approaches the question. If he wants to find fault, he will. In this case it would be better to wait a bit. If he's trying to identify the source of his faith, then it will be a fruitful pursuit.

1 hour ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Are there boundaries?

Again, yes. But those boundaries change over time. For the most part, it's not useful to search beyond the well known (if "faith" can be well known). However, as long as the foundations [faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ; Repentance (and the Atonement); baptism; and the Gift of the Holy Ghost] are kept firmly in hand, exploring a little further afield is not only wise, it can be very much a strengthening exercise. The problem is, people assume they can explore beyond their wisdom, and they can get mired in their own pride.

1 hour ago, Aish HaTorah said:

I guess I am asking if you feel there is any gain to be had in openly questioning what you believe and if you are stronger (or more faithful) for doing so, or if it is a damaging endeavor.

See above. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is very simple. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is deep, broad, and swift. The answers are easy to  understand, and require constant reflection, meditation, and prayer lest one choke on the simplicity. In the book of Jacob (in the Book of Mormon), we read about those who "look beyond the mark". Therein lies the danger of questioning: like going into a swift river without a firm anchor, one risks getting swept away by the current.

Lehi

Edited April 17, 2016 by LeSellers

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

A poster started a thread in the Advice section that got me to thinking.  Within your belief system, is questioning your faith considered a fruitful thing or something best avoided?  Are there boundaries?  I guess I am asking if you feel there is any gain to be had in openly questioning what you believe and if you are stronger (or more faithful) for doing so, or if it is a damaging endeavor.  Sorry if I am not asking clearly.

 

I think it is good to apply faith to the religious and spiritual questions we have, and that by faith the answers make sense. Exercising faith is how we gain knowledge of that which is good and true (Alma 32). I think questioning our (and others’) perception and understanding is a natural thing to do, which is why we need divine assistance in cultivating our spiritual senses. Divine assistance can also be obtained in how we handle religious points or claims of fact that we might question. For example:

“The Church is making great efforts to be transparent with the records we have, but after all we can publish, our members are sometimes left with basic questions that cannot be resolved by study. …Some things can be learned only by faith (see D&C 88:118). Our ultimate reliance must be on faith in the witness we have received from the Holy Ghost.”  https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/opposition-in-all-things?lang=eng

I also think divine assistance is necessary in discerning the respective roles of fact and truth in generating faith, and which facts and truths are essential for our salvation, and which is more essential.

As far as boundaries go, Alma 32 leaves that up to you (the presence or absence of the "swelling motions" described in Alma 32).

[Guest]

There's never been anything wrong with asking questions.  The thing that is wrong is to go into the question with suspicion at the start.  If that is the case, you're bound to be dissatisfied with any answer.

I think I drove many of my church instructors and leaders crazy with all the questions I had.

[Anddenex]

There is a difference between asking questions from a doubtful heart in one's faith, rather than asking questions to gain knowledge. If we are to be like our Savior, I don't believe he ever asked a question resulting from doubting his faith in God's plan. His questions were full of faith.

Some people will ask questions, never really intending to receive an answer, so they can continue feeling good about breaking commandments, or not doing something they know they should be doing (i.e. as long as my questions is unanswered, it isn't true, and I don't need to feel guilty about my decisions, that is for people who try to brainwash you).

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

A poster started a thread in the Advice section that got me to thinking.  Within your belief system, is questioning your faith considered a fruitful thing or something best avoided?  Are there boundaries?  I guess I am asking if you feel there is any gain to be had in openly questioning what you believe and if you are stronger (or more faithful) for doing so, or if it is a damaging endeavor.  Sorry if I am not asking clearly.

 

My personal thoughts--

Questions are a FANTASTIC thing!!  Something to be celebrated, so we can delve deeper into our belief with God.  There are a couple of ground rules which help it:

1) Don't try to run before you can walk.

2) Whether running or walking, make sure to watch where you put your feet.  Unsure foundations result in bad falls.

3)  Stay well hydrated with the water of Christ's words.  Keep a proper diet for these adventures (prayer, scripture, service, etc).  

4) Remember to take breaks and get adequate rest.  

[tesuji]

I like what people have said here. I think the key is to ask questions, but keep trusting in God. He will give answers to you when you are ready (which might not be until after this life).

Faith cannot exist without doubt, it seems to me. However, Mormons believe that with continued obedience to God and through revelation from the Holy Spiirt, you can get to a point where you no longer need faith, because you know.

Faith is the first principle of Mormonism, as given in our official Articles of Faith, https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1

Alma 32 from the Book of Mormon was mentioned. It's an amazing passage, and directly relevant, so I'll quote it here:

Quote

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

 29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

 30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

 31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

 32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

 33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

 34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

 35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

 36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

 37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

 38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

 39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

 40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

 41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing upunto everlasting life.

 42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruitthereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

 43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/32?lang=eng

 

[estradling75]

It is not questions that are problems... its the desires of ones heart.  People tend to find the answers that match their desire.  Those that truly desire to follow God will find those answers... Those that seek justification for doing something else will find answers that support that.

[Blackmarch]

18 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

A poster started a thread in the Advice section that got me to thinking.  Within your belief system, is questioning your faith considered a fruitful thing or something best avoided?  Are there boundaries?  I guess I am asking if you feel there is any gain to be had in openly questioning what you believe and if you are stronger (or more faithful) for doing so, or if it is a damaging endeavor.  Sorry if I am not asking clearly.

 

it depends how you go about it.
If you are questioning your faith in the way that you see your stumbling blocks and wish to over come them, then that is good.

However if you are questioning the faith by way of nitpicking so you can get out of duties and responsibilities, then that is bad.

basically it comes down to what your focus and purpose for doing so is.



but if you are not willing to go through any fire that god has prepared for you then you may want to wait on questioning, and work on your humility before God. In all things seek his spirit.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Blackmarch

[zil]

36 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Faith cannot exist without doubt

If by that, you mean doubt and faith exist in opposition to one another, then yes.  If you mean a person must have doubt to have faith, then no (unless you mean they need to use faith to overcome the doubt, but that goes back to opposition).  They are not compatible and cannot co-exist in a person on the same topic at the same time.  Faith is to act in confidence.  Doubt isn't.  See Lectures on Faith, lecture 3 and question 12 from lecture 6: "...and where doubt and uncertainty are there faith is not, nor can it be."; also, the Topical Guide under "doubt".

Doubt is not the opposite of knowledge, it's the opposite of belief.

[tesuji]

11 minutes ago, zil said:

If by that, you mean doubt and faith exist in opposition to one another, then yes.  If you mean a person must have doubt to have faith, then no (unless you mean they need to use faith to overcome the doubt, but that goes back to opposition).  They are not compatible and cannot co-exist in a person on the same topic at the same time.  Faith is to act in confidence.  Doubt isn't.  See Lectures on Faith, lecture 3 and question 12 from lecture 6: "...and where doubt and uncertainty are there faith is not, nor can it be."; also, the Topical Guide under "doubt".

Doubt is not the opposite of knowledge, it's the opposite of belief.

Yes, I agree. I meant faith is in opposition to doubt. Without the possibility of doubt, there can be no faith, because I think faith is the act of choosing to trust in God.

Some people seem blessed with the gift of faith and/or don't care to ask questions. They are happy with the Sunday School answers and don't go any deeper. I guess that's OK to get you through life, if that's what you want. It doesn't work for me, because I'm too curious and I want to understand things deeply.

And I also I worry about those folks - if they ever do ask questions, they might be unprepared to deal with that, because they have no experience with dealing with doubt.

As far as "doubt promoting rumors" on the internet - I'm talking about the attacks you read in news headlines and from doubters - I have looked into all of these. In every case, I have found reasonable answers. But I had to suspend disbelief long enough to keep searching for them. The LDS Gospel Topics essays have been very helpful, as has the unofficial Fair Mormon website:

https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng

http://en.fairmormon.org/Table_of_Contents

I don't mean that I have found proof for everything. Just reasonable explanations. As someone has given in the quote above from the last General Conference, you still need faith. I'm just happy to find that my faith doesn't have to be blind. The LDS gospel is very rational to me. As Joseph Smith said, "This is good doctrine. It tastes good."

 

[The Folk Prophet]

I find the idea that some people believe that there are others out there who never have questions ludicrous. Everyone questions. Everyone. Some just come up with answers easier.

[Jane_Doe]

14 hours ago, tesuji said:

Yes, I agree. I meant faith is in opposition to doubt. Without the possibility of doubt, there can be no faith, because I think faith is the act of choosing to trust in God.

Having questions is not the same thing as doubting.  Doubting is having questions a shirking back from finding the Truth.

[tesuji]

22 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I find the idea that some people believe that there are others out there who never have questions ludicrous. Everyone questions. Everyone. Some just come up with answers easier.

I know people who do not ask questions. Many of them are not particularly intellectually inclined. They are happy to read their scriptures and listen to Sunday School and General Conference, and enjoy the confirmation of the Holy Spirit about the truth of what is being said.

I do not recommend this, but I do not fault these people. The most important thing our religion teaches us is to learn to submit to God and to love and serve others, and to forgive and repent. You do not need to read books about the history of polygamy or about Book of Mormon DNA studies to get into heaven.

D&C 131:6 says, "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance."

This could be talking mainly about ignorance of the saving truths of the gospel. I believe Elder McConkie said as much.

D&C 130:18-19 says, "Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."

This could also be talking mainly about gospel knowledge. Notice it says this knowledge is gain by diligence and obedience.

 

HOWEVER: Both of these scriptures could also easily apply to all knowledge, not just the "spiritual" kind. The LDS church encourages members to be educated and learn all they can.

I love to learn and I recommend it to everyone. Elder Uchdorf has reminded us that most knowledge and modern revelations in the church has come because prophets asked questions.

 

My thinking about all this was greatly influenced by a documentary about Hugh Nibley called Faith of an Observer, when he talks about what he learned from his own near-death experience. Here's Nibley, one of the most learned me we've ever had in the church. He would certainly tell you to learn and ask questions. But he also says it's not the most important thing in this life:

Quote

"So that gives me great relief, so that's why I don't take this very seriously down here. We're just sort of dabbling around, playing around, being tested for our moral qualities, and above all the two things we can be good at... : 

We can forgive and we can repent.

It's the gospel of repentance. We're told that the angels envy men their ability both to forgive and to repent because they can't do either, you see.

But nobody's very clever, nobody's very wise. We're all pretty stupid, you see. Nobody's very anything. We're not tested on those things; but the things the angels envy us for, we can forgive and repent.

"Documentary Transcript of "The Faith of an Observer—Conversations with Hugh Nibley" [Study Aid] (1985)," FARMS Preliminary Reports, page 14
Video: 

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by tesuji

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, tesuji said:

I know people who do not ask questions.

Yes they do.

4 hours ago, tesuji said:

Many of them are not particularly intellectually inclined.

Only smart people ask questions?

4 hours ago, tesuji said:

They are happy to read their scriptures and listen to Sunday School and General Conference, and enjoy the confirmation of the Holy Spirit about the truth of what is being said.

All that means is that they have answers, not that they have no questions.

4 hours ago, tesuji said:

The most important thing our religion teaches us is to learn to submit to God and to love and serve others, and to forgive and repent. 

The most important thing our religion teaches us is to ask. We have been commanded to ask. Every...single...one. If someone doesn't ask they will not receive. If, as you suggest, there are those who have never asked, that is a serious problem.

4 hours ago, tesuji said:

You do not need to read books about the history of polygamy or about Book of Mormon DNA studies to get into heaven.

These are hardly important questions.

The rest of your post doesn't apply to the question as to whether there are those who don't have questions (actually...accurately phrased, have never had questions. Some people many not have questions currently...everyone has had them).

[tesuji]

The Folk Prophet, I suspect that we might be at least partly talking past each other, and if you and I were to sit down and talk I would pretty much agree with you. From your reply, I'm also not sure if you read everything I wrote.

Faithful questioning is good. I do it all the time, and I will teach my kids to do it too. I love to learn. The church absolutely teaches us to learn and ask questions.

I can't agree, however, with the statement, "The most important thing our religion teaches us is to ask."

I would say that the most important thing our religion teaches us is what Jesus said was the greatest commandment: to love and serve God. I don't think God wants us to be ignorant, but above all else he wants us to submit to him in obedience.

i'm not advocating blind, ignorant obedience. But I am saying that obedience to God is more important than anything else, including education and asking questions.

Actually, the scriptures say it is by obedience that we learn the most important spiritual truths, partly because we have shown we are ready for them. Spiritual knowledge can damn and even destroy us if we are not ready to receive and live it.

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by tesuji

[The Folk Prophet]

6 hours ago, tesuji said:

The Folk Prophet, I suspect that we might be at least partly talking past each other, and if you and I were to sit down and talk I would pretty much agree with you. From your reply, I'm also not sure if you read everything I wrote.

Faithful questioning is good. I do it all the time, and I will teach my kids to do it too. I love to learn. The church absolutely teaches us to learn and ask questions.

I can't agree, however, with the statement, "The most important thing our religion teaches us is to ask."

I would say that the most important thing our religion teaches us is what Jesus said was the greatest commandment: to love and serve God. I don't think God wants us to be ignorant, but above all else he wants us to submit to him in obedience.

i'm not advocating blind, ignorant obedience. But I am saying that obedience to God is more important than anything else, including education and asking questions.

Actually, the scriptures say it is by obedience that we learn the most important spiritual truths, partly because we have shown we are ready for them. Spiritual knowledge can damn and even destroy us if we are not ready to receive and live it.

 

How on earth can we love and serve God if we don't even know that He exists, how to serve Him, if the scriptures are true, or any other truths?

I'll back off a bit on "the most important". It was only a turn of phrase. But it's certainly the primary phase and key to everything else.

[bytebear]

55 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

How on earth can we love and serve God if we don't even know that He exists, how to serve Him, if the scriptures are true, or any other truths?

 

I believe D&C 46 answers this.

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

[The Folk Prophet]

10 hours ago, bytebear said:

I believe D&C 46 answers this.

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

What? How does that relate? So some of us are just given belief without our choosing so? Without bothering to pray for revelation? Without any effort on our part whatsoever? God just zaps certain individuals with belief even though they haven't exercised their agency to that end at all?

I would contend that such a belief is no belief at all, and when the storms come, such individuals, who have no foundation whatsoever, will be swept away.

[tesuji]

56 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

What? How does that relate? So some of us are just given belief without our choosing so? Without bothering to pray for revelation? Without any effort on our part whatsoever? God just zaps certain individuals with belief even though they haven't exercised their agency to that end at all?

I would contend that such a belief is no belief at all, and when the storms come, such individuals, who have no foundation whatsoever, will be swept away.

D&C 46 is talking about gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are gifts. Some people have the gift of knowing, others have the gift of believing the words of those who know.

I think along with these gifts it's assumed that you are living a righteous life and working to do all you can to obey God and learn.

Maybe someone here knows the answer to the following: are the gifts of the Spirit specifically for people who have been baptized, who now have the Holy Ghost?

[tesuji]

A great book about the OP is The Crucible of Doubt: Reflections On the Quest for Faith, by by Terryl Givens and Fiona Givens