Teaching Modesty

[Guest MormonGator]

9 hours ago, David13 said:

I am no Praeger fan.  I can't stand the guy.  He said something years ago that still rankles with me.

 

Curious as to what it was. 

I'm the same way though. Someone says something negative about me I hate them forever. I wouldn't say it's a good way to live your life, but it is what it is. 

[yjacket]

On 6/17/2016 at 9:50 AM, ModestMom said:

I have a beautiful athletic daughter who plays sports, but she loves to wear the short running shorts and spandex workout pants all the time, I try to express that this is immodest but she just gets frustrated and says that its comfortable. My daughter is a wonderful young woman who loves the gospel but I feel she truly doesn't understand the importance of modesty. She doesn't like knee length shorts or dresses/skirts that come to the knee, they either must be above the knee or to the floor. She is very thin and well built and the more I try to help her understand the need for modesty the more she gets frustrated with me, she loves the tight workout clothes and the sheer tops, how do I help her understand and gain a testimony of modesty? All her friends and many of which are LDS as well, dress similarly, which makes it even more difficult for me. She is now 18 and getting ready to go to college and will be in an area with a very small LDS population and I fear she will subcome to social pressure and abandon her already weak standards of modesty, please help me find a way to reach her that will not offend her.

MM,

She's 18 probably going to college in the fall and legally an adult. You can't do a darn thing about it. If you haven't taught her well enough by now then you as a mother will never be able to teach her. The time for teaching her and training her on modest clothing has passed.

In fact, the more you make an issue out of it, the more rebellious she is likely to be.

While being immodest is not appropriate and not what God wants, if this is the worst thing she does in her teenage life, thank your lucky stars.

If it were me, I would simply have 1 (and only 1) conversation with her on it. Something like very sternly.  "Molly, our family standards and God's standards are such that wearing these types are clothes are not appropriate, just like wearing a bikini or swimsuit not at the beach is inappropriate.  However, you are an adult, you are certainly old enough and mature enough to figure out what you should wear and what you should not wear so I will not mention this again. So you can choose what you want but know that I, your father and God disapprove."  The end.

Quite frankly, what else are you going to do . . . lecture and talk her to death 20 different times-that won't work she'll just ignore you.

If you go beyond the above, the only real thing you could do is simply have her change clothes when she is in the house, i.e. you can wear whatever you want outside the house and in your room, but when you are outside your room in my house you will not wear that.  But unless you have already established good house rules where the children obey your house rules without question, the above will fall flat on its face.

Part of being a parent is learning how to let go.  The goal is not to control your children, the goal is to teach them properly so they can control themselves.  We all have free agency, and with that comes the ability to chose not to do the right thing even if we've been taught properly.  That is something we as parents must accept-you can teach them right but they can still end up screwed up.  Parenting is simply an influence (a huge one), but ultimately children must choose for themselves.

[anatess2]

@zil @The Folk Prophet

You're talking about the same coin from its different sides.  Zil, TFP is trying to tell you that there's an eagle on this quarter and you keep on telling him no, there's a head.

Our external appearance sends out a message.  So that, you can say all you want that you are a Golden State Warriors fan but if you walk into the arena with your most comfortable Wine-colored shirt, you're gonna get bunched in with the Cavs fans.  It doesn't matter if what you are trying to say is "I'm comfortable" when the other guy reads, "She's seeking sexual attraction."

So, what you're saying zil is that what men think about what one is wearing is the LEAST reason for what you choose to wear.  Sure, you can say that all day long and even believe it.  But if you don't put UTMOST IMPORTANCE in what message you are giving about the clothes you're wearing, then you haven't learned the lesson on modesty... Modesty is a very important part of our covenant to Stand as Witnesses of Christ in all places.  You can't do that wearing pajamas to work let alone wearing a breast-flashing shirt to the mall.  It's not about looking good.  It's about what MESSAGE you're sending out about whose team you're on.

At the same time... just like we are supposed to love others as we love ourselves and that we are supposed to practice Charity, there is nothing at all wrong about making it our priority to help our brethren with their struggles, not just in teaching them to be responsible men who can control their mortal bodies but also to not present them with temptation that will make it harder.  We hope for the same Charity from our brethren to learn to be sensitive about our feelings.

I am the only female in my household.  With 2 teen-age boys, I witness the daily struggle.

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by anatess2

[omegaseamaster75]

13 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Personally I don't care if a woman dresses immodestly or not. I've trained myself not to look. Sure, I'm not perfect but it's called being a gentlemen. In 2016 I've noticed many men agree with me-thank goodness. 

 

This 

10 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

On a side note, I do cringe when I hear people say that women should be modest so men won't have impure thoughts.  That is essentially what the Taliban used to argue to force women into burkas.  Come on, bretheren... we are better than that.   

and this.

 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

22 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 and you keep on telling him no, there's a head.

I'm quite confident I admitted the eagle on the other side.

Edited June 21, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[NeuroTypical]

As you folks go about discussing how to best instill virtue and modesty in your kids, please be mindful of the whiplash effect should they choose to take another path.  (Whiplash effect: Moving from "stay pure or go to hell" to "you can always repent and be clean" so quickly you injure something - like your relationship with your child.)

A good way to avoid the whiplash effect, is to make sure you start from a correct place.   If you're starting out on the "nobody wants a licked cupcake"/used-kleenex-analogy side of the spectrum, the crash can be so serious, sometimes you end up busting through the wall completely and don't slow down until it's too late.

Thanks - that's all.  Carry on!

Edited June 21, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[Guest MormonGator]

24 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

As you folks go about discussing how to best instill virtue and modesty in your kids, please be mindful of the whiplash effect should they choose to take another path.  (Whiplash effect: Moving from "stay pure or go to hell" to "you can always repent and be clean" so quickly you injure something - like your relationship with your child.)

A good way to avoid the whiplash effect, is to make sure you start from a correct place.   If you're starting out on the "nobody wants a licked cupcake"/used-kleenex-analogy side of the spectrum, the crash can be so serious, sometimes you end up busting through the wall completely and don't slow down until it's too late.

Thanks - that's all.  Carry on!

You are so right NT. It's like a teenage romance. If your daughter falls in love with the "bad boy" the WORST thing you can do is forbid it because you immediately create a "forbidden fruit, Romeo and Juliet" type thing. The best thing you can do is talk about how much you like this new guy because then your daughter will start disliking him. 

[Vort]

16 hours ago, zil said:

I completely and fully reject the notion that women should be modest for the express purpose of helping men control their thoughts...I know people in our church and other churches have been taught this, I cannot think of a scripture which teaches this.

This strikes me as a straw man. I have never heard anyone suggest that the primary reason for feminine modesty is "helping men control their thoughts."

On the other hand, we are to help our brothers and sisters. If women's "fashion" (and many of us believe that women dress up primarily to impress other women) leads men into temptation, well, there is yet another good reason to dress modestly.

Not sure why this is such a bone of contention in the Church. As I wrote, in my estimation, it's a straw man -- and there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out that modesty in dress and action can be a help to one's brethren.

[Vort]

11 hours ago, David13 said:

If there is one thing that rankles me about modesty it is men with no shirt on anywhere where they can be seen by other humans.  I think it is lewd, obscene, immoral, offensive, and outrageous.

[anatess2]

44 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

As you folks go about discussing how to best instill virtue and modesty in your kids, please be mindful of the whiplash effect should they choose to take another path.  (Whiplash effect: Moving from "stay pure or go to hell" to "you can always repent and be clean" so quickly you injure something - like your relationship with your child.)

A good way to avoid the whiplash effect, is to make sure you start from a correct place.   If you're starting out on the "nobody wants a licked cupcake"/used-kleenex-analogy side of the spectrum, the crash can be so serious, sometimes you end up busting through the wall completely and don't slow down until it's too late.

Thanks - that's all.  Carry on!

Well, if you decide to start teaching modesty at age 12, then there's a higher chance you'll resort to this.  When you start at age 12 months... there's a higher chance you won't.

Same thing with alcohol, drugs, smoking, etc. etc.  It is always easier to teach when you start with the Do's instead of the Don'ts.  More often than not, you won't need to teach the Don'ts because they just figure it out on their own from the Do's.

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by anatess2

[NeuroTypical]

Every now and then I hear one of our youth say something to the tune of "We're mormons, we don't have sex."  I usually want to correct them on that - it's not true - just check out how many nurseries your ward has.  And how many fun stories we gather about the little girl telling everyone about how Sundays after church she gets to watch movies and eat popcorn while 'mommy and daddy have a cuddle'.   

My wife and kids are going full-hog 4H show birds this year.  I'm surrounded by turkeys and chickens, and God/evolution/both/either have mandated some pretty specific gender roles that occur at appropriate times in their lives.  Part of the lessons my daughters are learning, is that there's a time and a place to be totally and wonderfully immodest - i.e. when you are alone with your hubbies.  

 

Spot the male.

 

The Barrow Bird decorates his swank crash pad to attract the ladies:

Edited June 21, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[NightSG]

14 hours ago, David13 said:

If there is one thing that rankles me about modesty it is men with no shirt on anywhere where they can be seen by other humans.  I think it is lewd, obscene, immoral, offensive, and outrageous.

The thing that bothers me is that there's no societal prohibition of exposed moobs; if a man would benefit from a bra, he should be treated exactly the same as an equally hairy woman would if she were topless in the same situation.  

[Guest]

I honestly have no idea how we taught our kids about modesty.  But I find it both disturbing and comforting that whenever we go out to the supermarket, my kids have to point out the magazines and say,"She's not being very modest."

This is a stark contrast to the family I was raised in where my father thought it was a good idea to watch rated R movies for FHE and my mom would sometimes walk around the house naked.  Trust me, that is not a sight anyone wanted to see.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

18 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Personally I don't care if a woman dresses immodestly or not. I've trained myself not to look. Sure, I'm not perfect but it's called being a gentlemen. In 2016 I've noticed many men agree with me-thank goodness. 

Well, you're probably a much better man than I am.  Recently, I went to a neighbor's house to arrange some play time for our kids to play together.  I came across the mom who was working outside in "very thin clothing".  I was about to turn away and come back when she was more appropriately dressed, but she already spotted me and called me over to see what I wanted.

The problem here was that my mind was distracted with two other things where I couldn't really converse with her very well. (no not those two things) 

1. Her face.  Look at her face.  Don't let your eyes drop. Nope.  Her face.  She's up here.  Her face.  Her face.
2. Finish and get out. Finish and get out.  Get out.  Get out.  <insert Amityville> GET OUT!!!

How productive was the conversation there?  Not very.  Is that really my fault for being "so weak" as to be unable to dismiss her state of dress (as apparently she did)?  I guess you could argue that.  But I don't.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, you're probably a much better man than I am.

 I'm not, believe me. All I know is how little I know and how immoral I am.

On the plus side though I've noticed that know it alls and people who claim to be moral are always the worst types of people both morally and intellectually. So I have them beat on that. ;-)

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Every now and then I hear one of our youth say something to the tune of "We're mormons, we don't have sex."  I usually want to correct them on that - it's not true - just check out how many nurseries your ward has.  And how many fun stories we gather about the little girl telling everyone about how Sundays after church she gets to watch movies and eat popcorn while 'mommy and daddy have a cuddle'.   

You know why Mormon homeschoolers have such large families?  We don't watch TV.  We just go to bed.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Guest

[tesuji]

My teen daughter doesn't seem to understand modesty either. She sees too much immodesty in the Babylon world around her, I guess, and she like to be fashionable.

There are tons of reasons why immodesty is bad. But my short answer is that it's wildly inappropriate, and if you listen to the Holy Spirit it will tell you so.

To a woman who doesn't understand how the male brain works - just trust me, we males are hard wired to respond in a strong way to immodesty. Elder Packer said without this, men would probably not settle down into families (too many down sides, from the worldly male point of view...)

For me personally, immodesty is probably a lot like someone offering a glass of fine wine to an alcoholic. You can tell me I shouldn't be weak, but that's no practical help. You might feel for some reason you should have the right to dress like a streetwalker if you want. Maybe you should. But follow the prophet on this, if for no other reason than charity toward the men around you.

Edited June 21, 2016 by tesuji

[Guest MormonGator]

 I don't think anyone who says that male sexual nature is more driven by the visual is arguing that it's not controllable, otherwise no man here would be faithful to his wife.

What I think women are concerned about (rightfully so) is the fine line between saying "Male sexual nature is more visual" and "she was asking to be stared at because she was dressing immodestly."

To me it comes down to respect. Respect the woman you are with and while it doesn't go away, it's gets easier to deal with. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by MormonGator

[tesuji]

26 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 I don't think anyone who says that male sexual nature is more driven by the visual is arguing that it's not controllable, otherwise no man here would be faithful to his wife. What I think women are concerned about (rightfully so) is the fine line between saying "Male sexual nature is more visual" and "she was asking to be leered at because she was dressing immodestly"

I assume that most women who dress immodestly don't do it because they want to be leered at. Maybe some do enjoy asserting that kind of sexual power. But whether they are asking for it or not, they are denying the reality of the situation. Gentlemen won't leer if they can help it. But it is still abuse toward the men around her.

Quote

And young women, please understand that if you dress immodestly, you are magnifying this problem by becoming pornography to some of the men who see you.

-- Elder Oaks, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/04/pornography?lang=eng&_r=1

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by tesuji

[anatess2]

And as I read this, I'm lounging at the beach where little girl kiddos from "arm-wings" wearing to independent swimming are wearing 3 little triangles to cover themselves up.  And I remember seeing little kiddos wearing their super cute shoulder-baring dresses to church.  And I've always wondered how they imagine they're going to open the topic on modesty...

And as I sit here I see the little boys are covered right around their knees.  And I remember the little boys at church are in their long sleeve button downs or their polo shirts.  Now why is that?

Edited June 21, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And as I read this, I'm lounging at the beach where little girl kiddos from "arm-wings" wearing to independent swimming are wearing 3 little triangles to cover themselves up.  And I remember seeing little kiddos wearing their super cute shoulder-baring dresses to church.  And I've always wondered how they imagine they're going to open the topic on modesty...

Again, I have no idea how this happened, but my daughters both decided on their own that they are not going to wear traditional swimsuits.  My older daughter wears something that covers about what a wet suit would cover.  My younger daughter wears what is equivalent to the old 40s style swimsuits.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I assume that most women who dress immodestly don't do it because they want to be leered at. Maybe some do enjoy asserting that kind of sexual power. But whether they are asking for it or not, they are denying the reality of the situation. Gentlemen won't leer if they can help it. But it is still abuse toward the men around her.

 

Women dress immodestly for reasons that are there own. Religious people don't need to like it, but they need to accept that they can't control how an adult women dresses. Leering at her doesn't show poorly on the man she is with or her-it shows that you have no self control. (Not you meaning Tesuji) 

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Again, I have no idea how this happened, but my daughters both decided on their own that they are not going to wear traditional swimsuits.  My older daughter wears something that covers about what a wet suit would cover.  My younger daughter wears what is equivalent to the old 40s style swimsuits.

Have you ever noticed that you (or your wife) tend to sound like your parents?  Sometimes even when you didn't like that about your parents...

One's identity is so much influenced by the identity of one's parents.

This is evident in Filipino families (where families tend to stick together since divorce is illegal).  The entire clan is an identity.  From grandparents to aunts and uncles to children and grandchildren...

Edited June 21, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Have you ever noticed that you (or your wife) tend to sound like your parents?  Sometimes even when you didn't like that about your parents...

 

People say that but LadyGator is nothing like her (or my) parents and I'm nothing like my Dad or Mom either. 

[tesuji]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Women dress immodestly for reasons that are there own. Religious people don't need to like it, but they need to accept that they can't control how an adult women dresses. Leering at her doesn't show poorly on the man she is with or her-it shows that you have no self control. (Not you meaning Tesuji) 

I agree. We're not talking about trying to control how other people dress. We're talking about what is right, about the ideal, what we should teach our kids.

Self-control is certainly important. It's the only thing nowadays standing between a man and porn addiction.