Do we come close to worshipping Joseph Smith?

[Guest]

We sing Praise to the Man all the time and read the lyrics. Joseph Smith provided us the BOM D&C and POGP. He is the leader of our dispensation so it's been said that we have to get Joseph Smith's approval to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Also he helped found our modern church and is claimed to have done more than any other man, save Jesus Christ, in building the kingdom of God. So do we kind of worship him or just hold him as one of the most important person to ever live on this earth?

[Guest]

No.

[Guest]

praise

prāz/

verb

 

1. 1.

   express warm approval or admiration of.

   "we can't praise Chris enough—he did a brilliant job"

   synonyms:

   commend, express admiration for, applaud, pay tribute to, speak highly of, eulogize,compliment, congratulate, sing the praises of, rave about, go into raptures about,heap praise on, wax lyrical about, make much of, pat on the back, take one's hat off to, lionize, admire, hail, ballyhoo;  formallaud "the police praised Pauline for her courage in confronting the thieves"

   •  

      

noun

 

1. 1.

   the expression of approval or admiration for someone or something.

   "the audience was full of praise for the whole production"

   synonyms:

   approval, acclaim, admiration, approbation, acclamation, plaudits, congratulations,commendation; More

[LeSellers]

14 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

We sing Praise to the Man all the time and read the lyrics. Joseph Smith provided us the BOM D&C and POGP. He is the leader of our dispensation so it's been said that we have to get Joseph Smith's approval to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Also he helped found our modern church and is claimed to have done more than any other man, save Jesus Christ, in building the kingdom of God. So do we kind of worship him or just hold him as one of the most important person to ever live on this earth?

Why do you ask?

Yes, as Doc&Cov 135 says, he has done more for the salvation of the world, Christ excepted, than any man who's lived on the planet: we see him as one of the most important persons to ever live on this earth. How that gets morphed by enemies of the Kingdom of God into our worshiping him is only a mystery if one doesn't understand how Satan works. He is the master of distortion, the king of twisting, and the deceiver par excellence.

It's not because of the Book of Mormon that we need his approval to enter the Kingdom, it's because he holds the keys under Peter (and he under Christ), and he (along with Twelve Apostles) will judge us prior to Peters' judging us (if that's the way you read the scriptures on the subject), and before we receive a final judgement from Jesus Himself. It's about keys, not books, it's about authority, not revelation. We're grateful for the revelation, we thank God for the books, but of all the things restored through Joseph Smith, it's the keys we are (or should be) more grateful for.

Lehi

Edited August 14, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

14 hours ago, Eowyn said:

praise

prāz/

noun

1. 1.

   the expression of approval or admiration for someone or something.

   "the audience was full of praise for the whole production"

   synonyms:

   approval, acclaim, admiration, approbation, acclamation, plaudits, congratulations,commendation; More

And, this being true, the issue is why we "praise" him. It's the second half of the first sentence of the hymn: "… who communed with Jehovah, Jesus anointed that prophet and seer" then, "blessed to open the last dispensation".

This hymn doesn't show us worshiping Joseph Smith, it shows us "praising" him because of Jesus Christ and what He did, in this case, what He did through His prophet.

Lehi

Edited August 14, 2016 by LeSellers

[Blackmarch]

53 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

We sing Praise to the Man all the time and read the lyrics. Joseph Smith provided us the BOM D&C and POGP. He is the leader of our dispensation so it's been said that we have to get Joseph Smith's approval to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Also he helped found our modern church and is claimed to have done more than any other man, save Jesus Christ, in building the kingdom of God. So do we kind of worship him or just hold him as one of the most important person to ever live on this earth?

as a whole no. but i wouldnt be surprised if there are people who stick him on such a pedestal.

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, this is one of the enduring criticisms that really just doesn't have even the tiniest leg to stand on.  The thing was written right after Joseph's martyrdom, for pete's sake.  Ever been to a funeral where the deceased wasn't praised?  Is mormondom to be condemned for the sin of grieving over a lost great man?  For remembering the prophet who ushered in the last dispensation?  What sort of messed-up, cold-hearted critic would deny a song marking the passing of an important person?  

Yeah, do the folks advancing this criticism also have problems with MLK day and President's day?  Don't wanna get accused of worshipping George Washington, now do we!

See how easy it is to go on the attack when encountering this one?

[zil]

3 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

it's been said that we have to get Joseph Smith's approval to enter the Celestial Kingdom

Really?  By whom?  (Seriously, this is the first time I've heard this, and if it were common in the church, I think I'd have heard it.)  Now, what Lehi wrote about this is perfectly rational, but in 4 decades and 5 very different geographical locations of the church, I've never heard this taught.  I've heard of bishops judging, apostles judging, Christ judging, but no one specifically saying, "Joseph Smith as the one who holds the keys to this dispensation will be one of the people who judges us before we can gain entry into the Celestial Kingdom."  (NOTE: I'm not saying he won't.  It's perfectly rational that he would.  I'm saying I've never heard it explicitly taught or even obviously hinted at.  One would have had to draw the line from apostles to "the one who holds the keys of the dispensation" all on their own.)

3 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

is claimed to have done more than any other man, save Jesus Christ, in building the kingdom of God

And those who understand the truth know that however much Joseph Smith did, it was literally infinitely less than Jesus Christ did.  (Not to diminish what Joseph Smith did, but some perspective may help here.)

And for the record, while I have always had a strong, strong testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet, I have never come anywhere near worshiping him.

Edited August 14, 2016 by zil

[UtahTexan]

I songs songs to my mother.....to my wife.....to my kids.....do I worship them? No.

We honor Joseph.  We thank him.  We respect him.  We do not worship him.

 

 

[jerome1232]

2 hours ago, zil said:

Really?  By whom?  (Seriously, this is the first time I've heard this, and if it were common in the church, I think I'd have heard it.)  Now, what Lehi wrote about this is perfectly rational, but in 4 decades and 5 very different geographical locations of the church, I've never heard this taught.  I've heard of bishops judging, apostles judging, Christ judging, but no one specifically saying, "Joseph Smith as the one who holds the keys to this dispensation will be one of the people who judges us before we can gain entry into the Celestial Kingdom."  (NOTE: I'm not saying he won't.  It's perfectly rational that he would.  I'm saying I've never heard it explicitly taught or even obviously hinted at.  One would have had to draw the line from apostles to "the one who holds the keys of the dispensation" all on their own.)

I can only assume it's related to this Brigham Young quote:

Quote

“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith” Journal of Discourses: Vol 7 (emphasis added)

To me it's akin to teachings from the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon which indicate that the 12 called by Christ in Israel will assist in the final judgement of the Jews and that the the 12 called in the americas will assist in the judgement of the Nephites and Lamanites. Likewise Joseph Smith, according to Brigham Young, will assist in the judgement of those in this dispensation.

Edited August 14, 2016 by jerome1232

[mordorbund]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, do the folks advancing this criticism also have problems with MLK day and President's day?

Yes! Let's tear down this idol:

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Don't wanna get accused of worshipping George Washington, now do we!

What on earth would possibly make you think Americans worship George Washington?

* did George have a c-section giving birth to his nation?

[NeedleinA]

12 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

as a whole no. but i wouldnt be surprised if there are people who stick him on such a pedestal.

Sadly, this is in fact a dangerous thing to do... a pedestal of worship. If someone has elevated Joseph Smith to worshiping status they are often times "crushed" once they learn some historical fact about him that they didn't know previously. Rather than simply seeing him as an imperfect human, which he was, there is a tendency by some to go off the deep end and revolt against him entirely instead, doing a 180.

We learn about him, we study what he did for the restoration, we show the correct definition of "praise" to him and we are grateful for his contributions... but we don't worship him. 

[tesuji]

I honor and sustain Joseph Smith and all the later Mormon prophets as true prophets of God. But we should worship God only.

Quote

[A] principle is found in Mormon scripture [that] hasn't fully permeated Mormon culture[:]

 

God chose Joseph Smith not in spite of but because of his weakness; it was designedly through the instrumentality of such a flawed vessel, he was told by revelation, that God "might show forth [his wisdom] through the weak things of the earth" [D&C 103:1].

 

The LDS Church has no doctrine of infallibility, but it is characterized by a church culture that elevates the prophet and his mantle to near infallible heights....

 

The challenge of Mormon leadership is how to balance Woodruff's assurance that the leadership will never lead members astray, with the empirical and doctrinal reality of prophets designated by the voice of revelation as "the weak things of the earth."

 

Wrestling the Angel: The Foundations of Mormon Thought: Cosmos, God, Humanity

Nov 5, 2014
by Terryl L. Givens

 

Edited August 14, 2016 by tesuji

[Guest MormonGator]

Yes, of course we worship Joseph Smith. After all, we end prayers "In the name of Joseph Smith", don't we? Our churches name is the the Church of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Saints, isn't it? The Book of Mormon clearly states "Another testament of Joseph Smith, doesn't it?" 

Come on everybody, get with the program. How could you not come to the conclusion that we worship Joseph Smith? I mean really, it should be obvious.  

Edited August 14, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

I wear the gold Joseph Smith ring with the circle on the top representing eternity.

[LeSellers]

26 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

I wear the gold Joseph Smith ring with the circle on the top representing eternity.

Huh!?!?

Lehi

Edited August 14, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest]

3 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Huh!?!?

Lehi

Google gold Joseph Smith eternity ring. I bought a copy online and wear it. It's what Joseph wears in his paintings and he talks about it in the King Follett discourse. The circle on the top signifies one eternal round.

[Edspringer]

22 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

We sing Praise to the Man all the time and read the lyrics. Joseph Smith provided us the BOM D&C and POGP. He is the leader of our dispensation so it's been said that we have to get Joseph Smith's approval to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Also he helped found our modern church and is claimed to have done more than any other man, save Jesus Christ, in building the kingdom of God. So do we kind of worship him or just hold him as one of the most important person to ever live on this earth?

We hold him as the greatest prophet of our time, the very prophet of the restoration. But as we don't worship other prophets of old, we don't worship Joseph Smith.

It's  my personal opinion that, as he is so close to us in time (someone who we can actually recognize in history and not only picture in our minds, like Moses and Isaiah), it's easy to understand why we value him and prase him so much, as to sing about him and to have paintings of him in our chapels and houses, for instance. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Huh!?!?

Lehi

Here's what the ring looks like. http://www.theldsstore.com/stainless-steel-gold-finish-joseph-smith-ring#.V7EBPWz6vWM

[Traveler]

 

There are some in the religious community that define worship in such a way that it appears to them that we Mormons worship Joseph Smith.  My response to such thinking is that if it is necessary to define worship in such a way that it is argued that the esteem we hold for Joseph is a form of worship then by that same logic and argument – Traditional Christians (non-Mormons) worship the Bible.

By whatever logic it is determined or understood that non-Mormons Christians do not actually and really worship the Bible – use that same logic to understand that Mormons do not worship Joseph Smith.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

On 8/14/2016 at 1:37 AM, mordorbund said:

Yes! Let's tear down this idol:

What on earth would possibly make you think Americans worship George Washington?

* did George have a c-section giving birth to his nation?

This actually is an apt comparison.  I've heard many political pundits who don't care for the history of this country nor the Constitution accuse Constitutionalists of putting the Founding Fathers on a status with Demigods (their word).

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

I wear the gold Joseph Smith ring with the circle on the top representing eternity.

And what does this have to do with "worshiping" Joseph or not?  One might as well call it the "Eternal Round" ring and it would be exactly the same thing.

Seriously, this comment came out of nowhere.  What prompted you to make the connection between that ring and this thread?

Edited August 15, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

22 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Yes, of course we worship Joseph Smith. After all, we end prayers "In the name of Joseph Smith", don't we? Our churches name is the the Church of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Saints, isn't it? The Book of Mormon clearly states "Another testament of Joseph Smith, doesn't it?" 

Come on everybody, get with the program. How could you not come to the conclusion that we worship Joseph Smith? I mean really, it should be obvious.  

Gator,

That's the problem with you.  You always take things so seriously.  Don't you ever take the time to joke around?  It will relieve a lot of that stress that caused the alligator skin of yours.

[zil]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

There are some in the religious community that define worship in such a way that it appears to them that we Mormons worship Joseph Smith.  My response to such thinking is that if it is necessary to define worship in such a way that it is argued that the esteem we hold for Joseph is a form of worship then by that same logic and argument – Traditional Christians (non-Mormons) worship the Bible.

By whatever logic it is determined or understood that non-Mormons Christians do not actually and really worship the Bible – use that same logic to understand that Mormons do not worship Joseph Smith.

The Traveler

By that argument, traditional Christians, and lots of others, worship the NFL and NASCAR too.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Don't you ever take the time to joke around?

  No. Joking and laughing are immoral. Gator is not amused by your attempt at shenanigans and tomfoolery Carb. 

Edited August 15, 2016 by MormonGator