Can we really become gods?

[anatess2]

@Larry Cotrell @Carborendum @MarginOfError

I have a suggestion.  Trying to make something fit a Label is always a bad thing.  A label is supposed to name something.  Making something fit the name is an exercise in futility.

Making the Godhead fit a pre-restoration man-made label gets you nowhere.  It is a Godhead.  We all understand what it implies (or so I hope).  No need to make it fit whatever theistic model just so you can label it.

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by anatess2

[Blueskye2]

On 1/2/2017 at 8:39 PM, Jane_Doe said:

1)  LDS do not have the existence of any other divine beings confirmed by revelation.  Rather this talk is speculative and not scriptural (there's a huge difference in level of authority/certainty).   So all of the "are LDS henotheisitc" talk is based on unconfirmed speculations.  These speculations aren't really talked about in LDS church and don't really play a role in a LDS person's spiritual life.  All in all, this is very shaky ground to make any pro-henotheisitc arguments.

2) What we do know: the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE.  This oneness comes from unity.   IF there are other divine beings out there, it would follow that they would also be united in this perfection and the sum total would still be one God.  One God = monotheistic.   

 

Is the LDS concept of a Heavenly Mother, one that she is a divine being?

[Larry Cotrell]

21 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

Is the LDS concept of a Heavenly Mother, one that she is a divine being?

Here's a link from lds.org: https://www.lds.org/topics/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng

And, of course, Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Mother_(Mormonism)

 

[Blueskye2]

8 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Here's a link from lds.org: https://www.lds.org/topics/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng

And, of course, Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Mother_(Mormonism)

 

They both quote "acknowledge Godhood in her eternal Prototype". Whatever that means

Otherwise, the answer is yes? But not worshipped? I.e., henotheism?

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

They both quote "acknowledge Godhood in her eternal Prototype". Whatever that means

Otherwise, the answer is yes? But not worshipped? I.e., henotheism?

Acknowledge- yes, but official revelation on this is EXTREMELY limited.

Worshiped directly-- not presently.

Worshiped indirectly (since she and the Father are one) -- yes.

Henotheism -- no.

[Blueskye2]

12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Acknowledge- yes, but official revelation on this is EXTREMELY limited.

Worshiped directly-- not presently.

Worshiped indirectly (since she and the Father are one) -- yes.

Henotheism -- no.

I'm not trying to be rude here but this is double speak. Is she worshipped as in worshipping Jesus Christ! Or worshipped as in worshipping the Holy Spirit? Or just worshipping the Father means worshipping her as a sort of side effect? Or she is not worshipped?

Is she part of the Godhead, since she is one, or not one in the same way? Is the Father one with  several divine beings but they are not all one with each other?

Unless I misunderstood, both links provided indicate doctrinal teachings. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Blueskye2

[estradling75]

5 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

I'm not trying to be rude here but this is double speak. Is she worshipped as in worshipping Jesus Christ! Or worshipped as in worshipping the Holy Spirit? Or just worshipping the Father means worshipping her as a sort of side effect? Or she is not worshipped?

Is she part of the Godhead, since she is one, or not one in the same way? Is the Father one with  several divine beings but they are not all one with each other?

Unless I misunderstood, both links provided indicate doctrinal teachings. 

What part of

 

5 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Acknowledge- yes, but official revelation on this is EXTREMELY limited.

Was unclear?

The official revelation is that she exists... Full Stop.. End of line..

We assume that she is sealed to Heavenly Father and they One.  As we are commanded of God to be with our spouses.

But in this thread alone we see the difficultly we (and all religions) have in trying to explain in mortal terms how God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three but one.  Each group tries of course but outsiders always consider it to be a bit double speakish.  And that is with the ones we know relatively a lot about.

It is highly unrealistic to expect clear and understandable information about someone we know nothing about to cross religious divides when we can't even clear the air about the ones we do know and agree about existing.

 

 

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

They both quote "acknowledge Godhood in her eternal Prototype". Whatever that means

Otherwise, the answer is yes? But not worshipped? I.e., henotheism?

Points to consider

1) As others have said, it is difficult to answer the question of Heavenly Mother when we have virtually nothing to go on.  Sorry, there is nothing known.  What are we supposed to do?  What are we supposed to say?  How would we worship her?  I dunno.

2) "Worship" is also another quagmire of semantics. Many creedal Christians say that we are not Christians because we don't worship Christ "in the same way".  And that means "Mormons don't worship Christ".  But we claim we do.  So, what would it mean to worship our Heavenly Mother?  Idunno.  Singing hymns are a form of worship and we address her in the one and only hymn we have that even brings her up.

3) What everyone is not considering is that part of the meaning of Henotheism is the concept of "competing" gods. There is no competition among gods in our theology.  They all act as one.  

Such competition conjures images of Elijah and the priest of Baal.  To Baalites, they were practicing Henotheism or Monolatrism.  To Elijah, he was practicing monotheism. But often it was a matter of the region where you lived.  This in turn conjures images of the early United States.  If you wanted to be a Quaker, stay in Pennsylvania.  The Puritans in Boston had no use for you.

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Guest

[Jane_Doe]

9 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

I'm not trying to be rude here but this is double speak. Is she worshipped as in worshipping Jesus Christ! Or worshipped as in worshipping the Holy Spirit? Or just worshipping the Father means worshipping her as a sort of side effect? Or she is not worshipped?

No double speak at all.  We don't direct prayers to her or anything like that-- we don't have enough info to go off of.  However it is very logical she and the Father are ONE, so all worship to Him would also be worship to her, just the same that all worship to the Father is worship to the Son.  

9 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

Is she part of the Godhead, since she is one, or not one in the same way? Is the Father one with  several divine beings but they are not all one with each other?

They are all ONE. 

9 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

Unless I misunderstood, both links provided indicate doctrinal teachings. 

Yes, our current EXTREMELY limited knowledge.  Pretty much summed up as "she exists".  

 

[Vort]

10 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

They both quote "acknowledge Godhood in her eternal Prototype". Whatever that means

It means that Mother is the eternal prototype (original on which all copies are based) for women, just as the Father is the prototype for men. This hearkens back to (and might be based on) Lecture 7 of the Lectures on Faith, where Christ is named as the prototype for all mankind.

[Vort]

10 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

I'm not trying to be rude here but this is double speak. Is she worshipped as in worshipping Jesus Christ! Or worshipped as in worshipping the Holy Spirit? Or just worshipping the Father means worshipping her as a sort of side effect? Or she is not worshipped?

She is not worshiped. We do not pray to her or through her agency or invoke her name or authority or anything of the sort.

"Henotheism" is a hypertechnical word that is out of place in discussing LDS beliefs. We might as well argue as to whether we received a plethora of piñatas.

 

[wenglund]

For a broader (non-LDS) Christian perspective on Theosis and Divination: http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/tag/margaret-barker/

Thanks, Wade Englund

[Traveler]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 10:14 AM, Vort said:

It means that Mother is the eternal prototype (original on which all copies are based) for women, just as the Father is the prototype for men. This hearkens back to (and might be based on) Lecture 7 of the Lectures on Faith, where Christ is named as the prototype for all mankind.

 

The reality is that we know very little about the immortal eternal G-d that we call G-d the Father.  The only being that we have any actual or empirical experience with that hold the title of G-d is Jesus Christ and that example is mostly given while he was in a mortal very human expression of himself.  All other references of G-d are vague at best.  Why we call G-d the Father; our Father in Heaven or the Father of spirits is most uncertain and leaves more room for speculation than precise understanding.

In doctrine we are fallen creatures and are exiled from G-d and without anything empirical – our understanding, by necessity, mortal reality and doctrine is entirely based in faith.  And there is no repeatable logical way to discern what faith based understanding is most accurate from any other that differs by what-ever degree.  The sad fact is that we as Christians live in a condition where others – in the name of G-d – intend terror just for our faith and belief that differs from theirs and we have no means to resolve it. 

The very notion that G-d the Father has a consort or even near equal in a female infuriates and causes others to hate us for any degree of consideration.  So what is in this thread is only a very small tip of a very great iceberg that divides mankind with attitudes and intent of war, death and destruction.

 

The Traveler

[Blackmarch]

On December 29, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Zarahemla said:

The idea of exaltation is wonderful that we get to return to live with God and Jesus and our family forever, but D&C 132 says that we can become actual gods. Does that ever seen too good to be true and have modern prophets and apostles backed off from this teaching so not as to weird out converts? The first commandment given to Moses was to not have any other Gods and one Bible verse says something like there are no other gods than me, but if we believe in becoming gods then there must be countless numbers of them, even before Heavenly Father, our God. Does it seem too good to be true, or is it a very real reality that the missionaries just avoid teaching and the prophets have avoided saying the word gods in General Conference. Does that make us believe in multiple and many gods? Do you want to be one?

I believe christ's reply to the pharisees when he was accused of blasphemy was, "is it not written, 'ye are gods'?". I also find both the devils and gods comments they make in the garden of eden to be rather interesting in relation to gods.